The rapture of the Church

[GraceBwithU]

Onelove wrote:

It is through the Elect's testimony at these councils that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of in Scripture, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

{Rev 7:1-10}.

Assumption, not based on scripture. The 144,000 will be raptured at about the same time as the abomination takes place. There are seen in heaven soon after. Therefore, what is there to resist? The mark will not at that time have been established. I guess more rearraging.

Coop

No cigar coop. I'm not really sure what you are actually trying to say here really. We have already discussed this time period in Revelations and you even got yourself confused and ended up saying things that supported what I was saying instead of what your wanted to say.

 

[GraceBwithU]

This is so far off from mainstream thought, or as one man puts it, the "pale of orthodoxy," that it is ....... (let the reader come up with a word that fits.)

You are right the pre-trib hoax is mainstream for western Christianity, but it is quickly loosing support as more Christians study the Bible instead of The left behind series fantasy...or watching and believing in Hollywood. Like I said it is a belief that has only been supported for less time than the age of this young nation of ours. Absolutely NO record of it being taught anywhere until around 1800.

Also here are a few of quotes from the letter that Margaret MacDonald wrote explaining her vision. Although when published people were lead to believe that her vision supported a pre-trib Rapture. When I read the text it seems to me that she is describing the church being present during the tribulation. What do you think?

•“This is the fiery trial which is to try us. --- It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believedâ€Â
•“Now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive.â€Â
•“The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spiri that we shall be kept.â€Â

 

[GraceBwithU]

Chronology of events leading to the end of the age

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world

{Lk 21:12-15}, {Rev 9:1-11}, {Mk 24:4-15}.

But it is written that some will stand against satan and not bow a knee to the antichrist

{Mk 13:9-11}, {Mt 24:9-13}, {Lk 21:12-15}, {Dan 11:44}.

These are known as the Election Of Grace, spoken of as the 7000

{1st King 19:18}, {Rom 11:1-5}.

Satan, by means identified in scripture, will locate and seize God's Election, who are men and women who reject satan as the false christ and refuse to bow to him

{Lk 21:16}, {Mk 13:12}, {Mt 24:10}

Satan will deliver some of these Elect up to 'Sanhedrins' (synagogues and councils) to attempt to "convert" them and make them worship the antichrist as True Messiah But they will not.

LK 12:11}, {Mk 13:9}, {Mt 24:9}.

It is through the Elect's testimony at these councils that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of in Scripture, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

{Rev 7:1-10}.

At this point, the end is very near. The "Two Witnesses", who have been sent earlier from God to lead His Elect in resisting the antichrist, and whom are spoken of in {Rev 11:3-19; are murdered by antichrist and his misguided followers. Their dead bodies are left to rot in the street in public view.

This is done by the religious community at the time, the one-world religion

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

At this point, I would imagine that some who thought that they were really worshiping Jesus Christ begin to get a sick feeling in the pit of their stomachs as they reason within themselves that the True Christ would never do this. They think back to the true Word of God and know that they were warned of this in the Bible, but they had rejected God's True Word instead opting to follow "feel good" doctrines of men. But of course if they were to try to back out now they themselves would be murdered by mob rule, as antichrist has by now stirred the masses into a frenzy. Yes, murdered by the very "Christian Brothers" that had deceived them in the first place. It now sets in: They have been bought and paid for, they have been marked by the beast, and they thought they were such good little Christians; they should have listened to God's Word not the words of men. Put this in the back of your mind and remember this for all you are worth, it still at this time is not to late to repent. If you sadly find yourself like the one above, repent immediately for the time is by now very short!

Deut 4:29-31
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. (KJV)

Three and a half days later, as prophesied in the Bible, in full view of the whole world God audibly calls the Two Witnesses back to life and they rise up into Heaven in the sight of men. We are now within one literal hour of Jesus Christ's return, commonly known as the Second Advent.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe [6th trump] is past; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The following is from the book of Revelation, chapter 20, which is known as the 'Millennium Chapter,' in that it describes the events of the 1000 year period (Millennium) that satan is held in the pit and Christ reins on earth. This time period is chronologically after the time that the Rapture theories state that the "just" will have been drawn into the sky to "Christ" (i.e., Raptured):

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (KJV)

How many "first resurrections" can there be? Only one, there has been no graves opened and nobody Raptured out of here! This is quite clear here. But I understand that by misinterpreting or misconstruing {1st Thes 15-18} some will teach that the subject spoken of is a Rapture. But they don't read the preceding two verses {13-14} which tells you what the subject is; It is speaking of "where are the dead now", it says that if you believe that Christ defeated death and rose from the grave, then you can believe that those who have already passed away in the flesh (died) also rose at the moment of their individual death and are with the Father now in Heaven; They are not in a hole in the ground - only their discarded flesh 'temples' (bodies) are going back to dust.

God took the dust and made a body (in the womb) then He put your spirit, your very soul into that developing fetus, and when you die He takes your spirit back to Him and that flesh body rots back to the dust (minerals, chemicals, and proteins...) that it came from. This was meant to be a comfort to us in that our passed-on loved ones are not rotting in the grave somewhere but are with God. Unfortunately, the false doctrines of men turn it into a fly-away doctrine.

Good post onlove, you bought some excellent points. Yep, only one resurection. I expect that lecoop will be one of those people that you mention that get a sick feeling in their stomach. He will look for the Rapture for a long time into the tribulation and maybe even have the mark before he realizes the Rpature he has believed in just isn't going to happen.
:wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

GraceBwithU wrote:
lecoop wrote:
Notice the phrase, "the marriage of the Lamb is come..." This is saying that it is about to start - right then! Not after a horse ride. Now notice the highlighted phrase of verse 9. This is telling us that the marriage is over, and it is now time for the marriage supper. If the church was still on earth, they would miss these events, for they surely take place in heaven.


They surely take place in heaven but not until Christ gathers the bride. If the church had been there for 7 years already, why wait until Christ is about to return to earth?

I was searching to find some comment of mine where I did not provide scripture, but I found this comment of yours first. It seems that you are agreeing with me, that the marriage will take place in heaven, and after the rapture, which you believe will be when Jesus descends on the white horse. This seems to be saying that Jesus turns around and goes back to heaven. Am I understanding you? But what does John tell us? Jesus descends for the battle of Armageddon. So where is the marriage?? When is the marriage?

[quote:469a6]please Give me scriptures that describe the Rapture of the church happened before the tribulation.

This was a statement you made after you quoted 1 Th 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:52-54 the two classic rapture scriptures, and then, Rev 19:11-20, just as if these scripture go together! Now, I could say exactly the same thing, from my point of view: "Give me scriptures that describe the Rapture of the church happened after the tribulation." You see, from my point of view, Rev 19 does not go with the rapture scriptures you quoted. Neither does Matt. 24. If they did, and it was plain they did, there would be no pretribbers, no prewrathers, or anything else but post tribbers. But that is not the case, because there are no scriptures that all agree upon pinpointing the timing of the rapture.

I can show you scriptures, and have, pointing to a pretrib rapture, but you will do the same with mine, as I just did with yours! Go again and read about the great crowd, too large to number, as seen by John and written by him in Revelation 7. But this time, picture "great tribulation" as people dying for their testimony right now, as we know is happening in Muslim countries, and Hindu countries around the world. And again, if you cannot do this, try and explain why God would have shown this vison to John at this particular time in the total of the visions; that is, just before the 7th seal. If indeed, these people came out of that time of great stress spoken of by Jesus as happening right after the abomination event, one would expect that the abomination had just happened, as in perhaps the 5th or 6th seal (this is the prewrathers idea). Right? If not, then John is seeing a "preview" of something that will happen all the way in chapter 19? If not a "preview," then you must believe that the story is all jumbled up as far as chronology, and God just stuck this vision in anywhere.

By the way, if you do believe this group came out of that time after the abomination, when Jesus said it would be great tribulation, can you pinpoint the abomination event? Maybe that would strengthen your argument.

I have looked through my post to see what I might have said without scriptural backing. I guess they are so numerous, I will just have to let you point out one at a time, and I will cover them that way. Anyway, it is far too late at night.

Coop[/quote:469a6]
I did give scripture. Like everything else that you do, you are quoting out of context. And as I said even here you gave scripture references but no scripture. Just your un related interpretation of the scripture you have referenced.

 

[lecoop]

lecoop,
Anyway before you go further I need to get one thing perfectly clear. The elect is the church. If you don’t yet understand this you need to study this first or you will misinterpret many scriptures. And if you simply will not accept this, then the debate stops here and can continue once you understand this. If you need a place to start in understanding this you should look at many of the following occurrences of the words mentioned below.

Now we begin to see why you and I read the same verse, and come up with a different idea. Sorry, but I know this will be long: but is has to be to be perfectly clear.

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
"Elect," here is speaking of Jesus.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Here, "elect" is referring to Israel.

Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Again, "elect" is referring to Israel, the descendants of Jacob.

Isaiah 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Here, "elect" is referring to all who will enjoy the millenial reign of Christ. However, Isaiah is a descendant of Jacob, and is writing to the descendants of Jacob, so to the first readers and/or hearers, "elect" here is speaking of the descendants of Jacob.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Now we must be wise, and rightly divide the Word of Truth. What did this mean to those listening? Who was the initial audience? Of course, Jewish men under the Old Covenant. What came to their mind when they heard the word, "elect?" No other thought could have come to them, except in reference to the descendants of Jacob! In the scriptures, [the Old Covenant] this word had been used exclusively for the descendants of Jacob. what else would they have understood?

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Same answer as before. Most people read this and attempt to understand the intent of the author, from a 2007 standpoint. However, Jesus was speaking to Jewish men under the Old Covenant. That is all they knew! Yes, they knew the prophecies, that a week was coming in the future, from Daniel, and they knew that a time of testing was coming, called "Jacob's trouble." They knew that the Messiah would "come" and set up His kingdom. (They thought that this would mean destroying Rome!] That is why they had asked what would be the sign of His "coming." So what did this mean to them, as Jesus spoke it, and they heard it? They immediately knew that "elect" was speaking of them: the descendants of Jacob.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Same answer as the previous two: Jewish men under the old covenant would and could only understand this word as meaning the chosen descendants of Jacob.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Elect here means the same as the above verses in Matthew.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Same as above

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Same as above. Can we, or should we, put a different "spin" on this that what the original hearers understood? I don't think so.

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
"Elect" here is referring to Jews, under the old covenant.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Finally, we find a new group of people that God is calling His "elect:" It is the church.

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
"Elect" here goes back to the original meaning, "Jacob," or Israel.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Paul is using "election" here to refer to a remnant of Israel that have beleived in Jesus as their Messiah.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Same answer as above: Jews that have believed in Christ.

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Paul had just said, in a previous verse, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:." Note the word, "they." Who are the "they?" Paul is still speaking of Jacob. "Elect," then in this verse is again in reference to Jacob.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
"Elect" here is referring to Gentile Christians.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
"Elect" here is referring to Gentile Christians.

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Elect here is in reference to angels.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Paul is using "elect" here to refer to Jews. He had just written, "Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds..." Who was responsible for the bonds? Of course, the Jews.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
I will leave this one open for interpretation.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter is using "elect" here to reference the Jewish believers.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Here, "elect" is referring to Jesus!

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
Elect here is referring to Christians, probably all Jewish.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Election here is in reference to born again beleivers.

What then do we find? Thirteen times God has used the word "elect" in reference to Jews, and only 8 times to refer to those "in Christ." [If I counted right.] Why then, do you automatically assume, when you see this word, that it has to refer to the church, and automatically assume that anyone that disagrees with you just does not understand?
I'm cutting this post in half here, as it is too long.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

You wrote:

I need to get one thing perfectly clear. The elect is the church. If you don’t yet understand this you need to study this first or you will misinterpret many scriptures.

No, the "elect" is not the church. The "elect" could not possibly have been understood by the listeners at the Olivet Discourse, to mean "the church." They were clueless of "the church" at that point in time. The time frame was still under the old covanant. The audience was Jewish men. Their questions came right out of the old covanant prophecies concerning Israel. It was all they knew. So what is "the elect?" It is the chosen of God, whether it be Jew of Gentile. But we must analyze the context to determine if it is being used for the Jew, or for the church.

Hey allow me to speed this up some. Below is the second half of the week, (The Great Tribulation). You may go over verses 15-20 if you wish, but it says nothing in those verses to remotely indicate the church being Raptured. So here we are into the tribulation and Matthew has not said one word about the Rapture. But please notice verse 22-26. He is talking about His church and to His church. He is telling us some things to expect during this time in a very abbreviated form, (certainly not everything, no reason for that detail here). He is telling us this because we are still here.

The rapture, for the most part, will be for the Gentile church. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was the one that wrote about the rapture. Why would Matthew have written something that he would have been clueless about? Of course, He wrote what Jesus said. Why would Jesus have said things that the listeners were clueless about? Jesus was answering their questions; questions that came to their mind from old covanant prophecies about Israel. You seem to think that this discourse MUST be about the church. It was not. Verse 15 pinpoints the midpoint of the week. Do we call this week ,the 70th week of the Gentiles? No, it is the 70th week of DANIEL! Daniel was not a Christian, he was a descendant of jacob. The 70th week then, has nothing at all to do with the church. The rapture (from a pretrib perspective) would have been about 3 1/2 years before verse 15. Paul wrote that blindness happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. But what then? God will finish the 70 weeks Daniel prophecied about for Israel: again, nothing concerning the church. What is the purpose of this time of great tribulation? Daniel tells us: "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.." God's purpose is to scatter [to shatter, break, dash, beat in pieces, to pulverise] the power of the Jews, so that they will be forced, when they are about to be destroyed, to call once more on God. Why would anyone think this has anything to do with the church? What did Luke write? "for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [Luk 21:23]. What people? Where are the people that Jesus told to flee, when they see the abomination? Of course, in Judea. His wrath will be upon the Jews. We see this explicitly in Matthew 23:35, and 1 Thessalonians 2:16.
.
We see why then, that Paul wrote,

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


When one has an appointment, they get up and go to where that appointment is suppose to be. But if they have no appointment, they stay home, and watch two football teams struggle against each other. The point is, no appointment - don't show up. We will not be here for this appointment. It is an appointment between the beast and the Jews. It was set up by God Himself. God said that He was giving the beast authority over the saints, meaning that millions of people will be beheaded. Why do you even think that God would turn His saints over to be beheaded? Would you do this to your own children? What kind of God do you think we serve? What does it mean to you when John writes, "it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them?" How can you equate this verse with God protecting the church while His wrath is being poured out on others? It just does not fit. If God has said that He will give the beast power to overcome the saints, then if you say the church is the saints, the church will be overcome, plain and simple.

But the truth is, the church has no appointment with His wrath. We won't even be here!

Matt 24:21-28
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Now the tribulation is over.

Matt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Now He has is church. Then in verses 32-51 He describes in more detail what verse 29-31 will be like and to watch for it.

If you could prove that "elect" here was meant by the auther to mean "church," you might have something. But you cannot. Neither does other scriptures back this theory up.

Chapter 25; here he speaks of the ten virgins preparing for the bride groom that is placed here after His second coming and after the tribulation. He also speaks in verse 31-46 of the parable of the sheep and the goats. Back in Chapter thirteen there are a couple of more parables that tell the same story. The “tares and wheat†and “the netâ€Â. In my opinion and also Oxford University, this is back on earth, at the beginning of the millennium. In all three of these parables he is judging, those that are being separated are the church that has returned with Him and those left alive after Armageddon that are not saved. These are the goats. They are judged here and sentenced. Some of these condemned and or there descendants are reigned over by the saints until Satan is loosed for his last attempt. These are the ones that join his army at the end of the millennium. Of course some die and go to the grave along the way to wait for the second resurrection.

Sorry, but the rapture would make the sheep and goat judgement of no use! There would be no sheep! We would already have our resurrection body, and there would be no way others could make a last second repentance. Besides, all those that would not be caught up in the rapture would have taken the mark. Next, those condemned are cast into hell, and could not possibly be allowed into the Kingdom. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

For the tares, we read, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." What does "first" mean? It means there is a delay in time between the gathering. I believe this gathering will be the moment that Jesus descends to earth. It has nothing at all to do with the rapture of the church, which will have taken place about 7 years before this time. The rapture will leave the lawless on earth. Many of the lawless will survive the 70th week, and be alive after the 7th vial. But they cannot and will not escape the angels that come and cast them into hell. This will still leave many "goats" that have survived, but are basically good people. But they took the mark, and did not help those that refused the mark, so the judgement of the nations will separate them, and they will be cast into hell. Finally, all that are left, are the righteous: those that have turned to God after the rapture. They, and they alone, will be allowed entrance to the Kingdom.

It is the only scenario that fits all these verses. If the rapture were to happen as you say, no need for the parable of the tares, no need for the sheep and goat judgement, and no people left in physical bodies to have kids during the 1000 years. If you can solve these dilemmas, let's hear it.

Summary:
I have just reviewed 2 chapters of Matthew that speaks of the end times. In these 2 chapters, no so called pre-trib Rapture is even remotely mentioned. Also there is only one trumpet mentioned and it is when Christ returns.

Of course! Paul was the only man to receive revelation of the rapture, and so was the only man to write about it. Plain and simple.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote:

It is through the Elect's testimony at these councils that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of in Scripture, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

{Rev 7:1-10}.

Assumption, not based on scripture. The 144,000 will be raptured at about the same time as the abomination takes place. There are seen in heaven soon after. Therefore, what is there to resist? The mark will not at that time have been established. I guess more rearraging.

Coop

No cigar coop. I'm not really sure what you are actually trying to say here really. We have already discussed this time period in Revelations and you even got yourself confused and ended up saying things that supported what I was saying instead of what your wanted to say.

You are dreaming! It is just that you may be close on a couple of things! : -)) It is quite simple: Onelove was saying that the 144,000 will be facing the antichrist and will refuse to worship him. I wrote that his scenario was impossible, because the 144,000 are raptured right at the midpoint of the week, as "firstfruits unto God." In other words, they will miss the days of Great tribulation. Plain and simple, without rearranging the book.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Good post onlove, you bought some excellent points. Yep, only one resurection. I expect that lecoop will be one of those people that you mention that get a sick feeling in their stomach. He will look for the Rapture for a long time into the tribulation and maybe even have the mark before he realizes the Rpature he has believed in just isn't going to happen.

Dream on, guys! :angel: I will have flown away to heaven, and will never have the opportunity to see the leopard beast. Did you forget? I have no appointment! :smt043

Coop

 

[lecoop]

This is so far off from mainstream thought, or as one man puts it, the "pale of orthodoxy," that it is ....... (let the reader come up with a word that fits.)

You are right the pre-trib hoax is mainstream for western Christianity, but it is quickly loosing support as more Christians study the Bible instead of The left behind series fantasy...or watching and believing in Hollywood. Like I said it is a belief that has only been supported for less time than the age of this young nation of ours. Absolutely NO record of it being taught anywhere until around 1800.

I was not writing about the rapture when I said his thoughts were so far from the "pale of orthoxy." He does not believe in resurrections!

Also here are a few of quotes from the letter that Margaret MacDonald wrote explaining her vision. Although when published people were lead to believe that her vision supported a pre-trib Rapture. When I read the text it seems to me that she is describing the church being present during the tribulation. What do you think?

•“This is the fiery trial which is to try us. --- It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believedâ€Â
•“Now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive.â€Â
•“The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.â€Â

There have been antichrists or the spirit of antichrist, in the world since John. Every demon is the spirit of antichrist, because they hate Him. I don't think she is speaking of the 70th week here. There have been false Christs in my short life.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

Assumption, not based on scripture. The 144,000 will be raptured at about the same time as the abomination takes place. There are seen in heaven soon after. Therefore, what is there to resist? The mark will not at that time have been established. I guess more rearraging.

Coop

No cigar coop. I'm not really sure what you are actually trying to say here really. We have already discussed this time period in Revelations and you even got yourself confused and ended up saying things that supported what I was saying instead of what your wanted to say.[/quote]

You are dreaming! It is just that you may be close on a couple of things! : -)) It is quite simple: Onelove was saying that the 144,000 will be facing the antichrist and will refuse to worship him. I wrote that his scenario was impossible, because the 144,000 are raptured right at the midpoint of the week, as "firstfruits unto God." In other words, they will miss the days of Great tribulation. Plain and simple, without rearranging the book.

Coop[/quote]
I would be impossible if your fantasy Rapture view was not just something out of Hollywood. Maybe you can convince them to make a movie that you direct.... :wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

Good post onlove, you bought some excellent points. Yep, only one resurection. I expect that lecoop will be one of those people that you mention that get a sick feeling in their stomach. He will look for the Rapture for a long time into the tribulation and maybe even have the mark before he realizes the Rpature he has believed in just isn't going to happen.

Dream on, guys! :angel: I will have flown away to heaven, and will never have the opportunity to see the leopard beast. Did you forget? I have no appointment! :smt043

Coop

Actually you are more likely to accept the antichrist and his mark because you will not be looking for him.You haven't been pulled out of here by the glorytrain you believe in. So it will be easy for you to conclude that this can't be the anti-christ...I'm still here...Here in lies the real danger of believing these lies of Tim LaHaye and Hollywood that the pre-tribers believe...Satan is laughing at them...He loves it. No worries with the pre=tribers...the are out of here...But then agin if they are wrong. OOPS!!! Please accept the truth before it is too late. You have good intentions. But as Winston Churchhill once said...The highway to hell is paved with good intentions. I'll pray for you brother...you seem to be well blinded. I wish what you believed was true...but you have been fed a lie for profit. :wink:

 

[lecoop]

Assumption, not based on scripture. The 144,000 will be raptured at about the same time as the abomination takes place. There are seen in heaven soon after. Therefore, what is there to resist? The mark will not at that time have been established. I guess more rearraging.
Coop

No cigar coop. I'm not really sure what you are actually trying to say here really. We have already discussed this time period in Revelations and you even got yourself confused and ended up saying things that supported what I was saying instead of what your wanted to say.

Coop [quote:8321d]
You are dreaming! It is just that you may be close on a couple of things! : -)) It is quite simple: Onelove was saying that the 144,000 will be facing the antichrist and will refuse to worship him. I wrote that his scenario was impossible, because the 144,000 are raptured right at the midpoint of the week, as "firstfruits unto God." In other words, they will miss the days of Great tribulation. Plain and simple, without rearranging the book.
Coop

I would be impossible if your fantasy Rapture view was not just something out of Hollywood. Maybe you can convince them to make a movie that you direct.... :wink:[/quote:8321d]


Fantasy? Take a look:

Rev 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

John is showing us here that he is at the midpoint in his narrative, since there are about 42 months remaining of the week at this point in time.

Rev 11
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Second clue that John is at the midpoint: from this point, there will be 1260 days to the end.

Rev 11
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded...

This is the "marker" that the Holy Spirit sent me to find. This "marks" the exact midpoint of the week.

Rev 12:1-5 Is a brief "history lesson," John writing of the birth of Jesus.


Rev 12
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Matt. 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, ...Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is further proof that the exact midpoint of the week has just past: we see that those living in Judea have fled because they have seen the abomination. John is now perhaps a few hours or a day after the exact midpoint.

Rev 12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Satan is cast out of heaven, at the midpoint of the week. "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath." The devil immediately goes after the Jews: "when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

A second verse showing the fleeing into the wilderness: a second proof that John is at the midpoint here in chapter 11-12.

Chapter 13: all about the beast, and the mark. Why is he introduced to John here in chapter 13, half way through the week? I believe VERY few Jews will know about him, or know who he is or that he is the devil incarnate, until after the abomination event. Suddenly, after that event, all Jews will know who He really is. God introduces him to John at the midpoint of the week.

Rev 14
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This is the final mention of the 3 1/2 years, and is the last proof that John is at the midpoint of the week at this point in his book.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

There can be no doubt that they have been translated to heaven. When will this happen? John has given us many proofs that it will happen very soon after the midpoint of the week.

So you see, no need to rearrange the book! It makes perfect sense as it is written. I wonder why you would rearrange the book to make it fit your theories, rather than just believe it as it is written, and build a belief from what John wrote?

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,
How many Raptures do you believe in? :wink:

I though you were pre-trib...now you talk about mid-trib...are you even sure what you believe

 

[lecoop]

GraceBwithU wrote,

Actually you are more likely to accept the antichrist and his mark because you will not be looking for him.You haven't been pulled out of here by the glorytrain you believe in. So it will be easy for you to conclude that this can't be the anti-christ...I'm still here...Here in lies the real danger of believing these lies of Tim LaHaye and Hollywood that the pre-tribers believe...Satan is laughing at them...He loves it. No worries with the pre=tribers...the are out of here...But then agin if they are wrong. OOPS!!! Please accept the truth before it is too late. You have good intentions. But as Winston Churchhill once said...The highway to hell is paved with good intentions. I'll pray for you brother...you seem to be well blinded. I wish what you believed was true...but you have been fed a lie for profit.

Not wrong. And there is an equal and opposite argument: Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Those that have convinced themselves that He will delay His coming until after the 70th week, will be left. It is something to think about.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

760 posts on this subject, the only subject you've shown an interest in. Why? are you hard to hear? We'll can you hear me now? Well can you Coop..

Get over it, times a wasting, the lost are listening, but how shall they hear if nobody tells them?
The times they are a changing, his second coming is near :

 

[GraceBwithU]

GraceBwithU wrote,

Actually you are more likely to accept the antichrist and his mark because you will not be looking for him.You haven't been pulled out of here by the glorytrain you believe in. So it will be easy for you to conclude that this can't be the anti-christ...I'm still here...Here in lies the real danger of believing these lies of Tim LaHaye and Hollywood that the pre-tribers believe...Satan is laughing at them...He loves it. No worries with the pre=tribers...the are out of here...But then agin if they are wrong. OOPS!!! Please accept the truth before it is too late. You have good intentions. But as Winston Churchhill once said...The highway to hell is paved with good intentions. I'll pray for you brother...you seem to be well blinded. I wish what you believed was true...but you have been fed a lie for profit.

Not wrong. And there is an equal and opposite argument: Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Those that have convinced themselves that He will delay His coming until after the 70th week, will be left. It is something to think about.

Coop

I am in deed looking and watching for the second coming of Christ., not for some false prophet that will come first. They that watch will know him. He comes as the Bible has said he will come not as Hollywood and some false doctrine that found it's ugly root in western society around the turn of the 1800's by a 15 year girl. I believe the Bible, not some false hope that I have believed in because it was popular. wqhat are you going to do when the anti-christ comes and you are still here. What are you going to do when you realize that you have put your faith in a false hope that was given to you by Satan so that you would be unprepared for his cunning. you have already to submitted yourself to the first stage of his cunning. He already has you in the grip of this illusion called the Rapture. NO where in the Bible does it teach of more than two comings of Christ. No where in the Bible does it teach of a two stage second coming. Only Satan could event such nonsense. So to decieve the weak before he even apears on the scene as the anti-christ of the tribulation. Jesus teaches us to be watchful of his coming and also to be aware of what evil may attempt to deceive even the elect. And yes my brother, even though you ignored my question about the elect. When the Bible speaks of the ELECT it is not always talking of Israel. It sometimes is talking of the choosen before the world began of his specailly choosen to fulfil his purpose and plan, (disciples , abraham, Jacod, writers of the Bible, etc.)and it is also sometime speaking of His entire church. You have given nothing but twisted interpretations of scripture that even you have gotten confused about when trying to present. Your argument has shifted from one thing to another in the same paragragh.

Oh and as for as were the dead ascending or descending. The answer is actually probably both. the spirit is coming down as the resurrected body rises. at the first and only resurrection of the church. Which is at is only second coming. You seem to know a few scripturres well. 75% of your post is in this area. It is sad that you have come to such a dangerous conclusion that could lead you straight into the hands of the endtimes anti-christ.

Ya know the thing is that it doesn't matter when we believe that he will gather us, only that we know He will and to be watchful. But there will be no second chances. when you findly realize that the gathering of His dead in Christ and the ones alive is at the same time as is second coming, after the tribulation. It could be too late for you to give up the markl that you took innocently because you had not been Raptured. Those that are not looking to be taken away before that stand a much better chance of dealing with it.

Keep bugging God as you said. Keep studying.

Hey here is a thought maybe God did asnwer your prayers about undrestanding this. Maybe he sent you here to find the truth and to see what you were misunderstanding. there has been many good brothers here that attempted to enlighten you. Just seems you are suffering form a power outage. JK
:wink:

 

[turnorburn]

II Peter 3:10-18... you might want to examine verse 15, it states; And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation. You see Coop come hell and highwater, our Lord and savior
Jesus Christ is waiting for that very last soul, to enter the ark before he shuts the door for the last time.. :


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. A-men.

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[lecoop]

lecoop,
How many Raptures do you believe in? :wink:

I though you were pre-trib...now you talk about mid-trib...are you even sure what you believe

GraceBwithU, this just shows how little you really know about the book of Revelation. YOu tell me: how do the 144,000 get up to the throne?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Good post onlove, you bought some excellent points. Yep, only one resurection. I expect that lecoop will be one of those people that you mention that get a sick feeling in their stomach. He will look for the Rapture for a long time into the tribulation and maybe even have the mark before he realizes the Rpature he has believed in just isn't going to happen.

Dream on, guys! :angel: I will have flown away to heaven, and will never have the opportunity to see the leopard beast. Did you forget? I have no appointment! :smt043

Coop

Actually you are more likely to accept the antichrist and his mark because you will not be looking for him.You haven't been pulled out of here by the glorytrain you believe in. So it will be easy for you to conclude that this can't be the anti-christ...I'm still here...Here in lies the real danger of believing these lies of Tim LaHaye and Hollywood that the pre-tribers believe...Satan is laughing at them...He loves it. No worries with the pre=tribers...the are out of here...But then agin if they are wrong. OOPS!!! Please accept the truth before it is too late. You have good intentions. But as Winston Churchhill once said...The highway to hell is paved with good intentions. I'll pray for you brother...you seem to be well blinded. I wish what you believed was true...but you have been fed a lie for profit. :wink:

I will draw the line at this total disregard for the scripture. I have heard this once too often. Your scare tactics fall far short with someone that knows the scriptures.

Rev 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So what does it say? Who worships the beast? It is those who are NOT written in the book of life. Now compare with what you wrote:

Actually you are more likely to accept the antichrist and his mark because you will not be looking for him.

Now read this verse again:

Rev 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17
8....they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Here is Jesus, speaking of the same thing:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is NOT possible to deceive the very elect, else Jesus would not have included this. Therefore, I hope you will not post such foolishness again.

Now, as I have said before, I will not be here. If you guys want to "tribulate," go ahead and stay! I am going to my mansion in the sky!

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

lecoop,
How many Raptures do you believe in? :wink:

I though you were pre-trib...now you talk about mid-trib...are you even sure what you believe

GraceBwithU, this just shows how little you really know about the book of Revelation. You tell me: how do the 144,000 get up to the throne?

Coop

Coop, read Revelation 14 carefully. The "they" in verse three refers to the harpers:

Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

It is they, the harpers, singing the new song before the throne. It also says the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth, not removed from the earth. Young translates it as "bought ". NASB reads "purchased ". We know the 144,000 are still on earth because Rev 14:1 says so:

Rev 14:1-And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Mount Zion is an earthly mount; it is the Lord's earthly dwelling place. This is not the first time Mount Zion is revealed in scripture. Here are just some of the verse I find to be relevant:

Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Psa 74:2 Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Isa 37:32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Oba 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.