The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Sorry you just plain have no clue about how revelation is written. And I don't have time to teach you...but I will give you some links later, so you can understand. it's not about rearranging, it's about undrstanding the true order. and what is being talked about in each chapter. I'm not saying it is all scrambled. I'm just saying that some visions or out of order and or rmentioned more than once. For instance the great multitude coming out of the great tribul;ation is mentioned in Chapter 7, but it hasn't mentioned the seventh seal to be opened yet. And there is more, but the 19th Chapter is pretty much in order and it all happens very fast because it is time for Him to gather His bride.

You certainly have a right to your opinion. We all have them. On the other hand, perhaps it is you that thinks he knows, when, in fact, he doesn't. For example, can you pinpoint the time of the abomination in Revelation? Can you pinpoint the beginning of the 70th week? Can you pinpoint the end of the 70th week? And better yet, can you defend your theories? Can you explain why John breaks from his realtime timeline, between the 6th and 7th seals? Can you explain why John breaks again between the 6th and 7th trumpets? Perhaps you can explain why Jesus was not seen by John in the vision of the throne room, when there are numerous scriptures telling us that Jesus ascended to be at the right hand of the Father. Perhaps you can tell us the timing of the first seal, and defend that timing by scripture. Perhaps you can explain why the two witnesses are brought in at the precise time in Johns writing, that he introduces them to us. Perhaps you can explain why Jesus said that the cosmic signs just before His coming will be seen after the time of great tribulation, yet John shows us these signs in chapter 6, before the 70th week has even started. Good luck with these!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove, we have been over these verses time and again. Of course there are scriptures that show Jesus coming before the tribulation. It is when we meet Him in the air. If we meet Him in the air, He surely had to come to the air, from heaven: right?

You think this will happen at the end of the 70th week, yet John shows the church in heaven, before the week even starts. When Jesus comes, the "restitution" will begin. It will begin with the Day of the Lord.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,

It is obvious that you don't understand scripture. heck, you don't even understand what the word elect means in the Bible. This is elementary Bible knowledge.

Below are some scriptures that talk about the Second Coming of Christ. They also include Paul’s descriptions of things related to His second coming. Some of the scripture is that which many western Christians believe is the so called Rapture.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

1 Cor 15:52-54
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

Rev 19:11-20
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them
KJV

1 TH 5:2-6
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

Mt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Now I’m about to write a short story of the second coming and the so called Rapture and I’m going to do it with as few of my words as possible. I will use mainly the words directly out of the verses I have posted.

I’m well aware that these are out of context but the rest of the context is all related. Before you just jump into vain criticism please Give me scriptures that describe the Rapture of the church happened before the tribulation. Scriptures that tell the story as plainly as these do. If the scripture is there that you so proudly claim, It shouldn’t be hard to come close.

• “Immediately after the tribulation of those days†(Mat 24:29)
• “…for the marriage of the Lamb is come,…†(Rev 19:7)
• ‘And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven†(Mat 24:30)
• “with the trump, (which is the last trumpet, 1 Cor. 15:52) of Godâ€Â
• “the dead in Christ shall rise first†(1 Th 4:16)
• “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the airâ€Â, (1Th 4:17)
• “corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortalityâ€Â, (1 Cor. 15:54)
• “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war…And the armies which were in heaven, (He gathered us a second before) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.â€Â, Rv 19:11-14)
• All this “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eyeâ€Â, (1 Cor 15:52). “As thief in the night.†(1 TH 5:2)
• Satan and his army will be caught unaware. They are totally defenseless against an army of immortals. They are easily defeated. Spoken into defeat by the word of God.
• “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.†Rev 19:17-18.
• “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet…These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.†(Rv 19:20)
• “and so shall we ever be with the Lordâ€Â, (1Th 4:17) as His bride.
The pre-trib Rapture belief is younger that this country even. For 1800 years the is no record of it ever being taught anywhere. Every single scripture that is used by pre-tribers are scriptures that simply describe the second coming. And ther is only two comings of Christ, not three.

Like I said before we started this debate, I was once sold hook, line, and sinker on pre-trib. I don't remember now what happened that made me want to study the subject. Anyway I started the study with many references on all beliefs in the Rapture. I read all the scripture I could find, including those scrip[tures from pre-trib sources. I actually wanted to prove the pre-trib idea. After all that is what I believed. It would be nice to think that I would not be here during the tribulation. That is why the idea sells so easily, it is a wonderful thought. Unlike you though I went into the study with an open mind. After a while it begin to be clear that the scripture never speaks of the church not being here during the tribulations. Infact Jesus warns us what to expect over and over.

It is written

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God...

This is not describing a secret appearance of Christ.

Oh and by the way, you made comments about the 7th trupet not being the trumpet that is talked about here. OK I can by that, but it does say last trump. So that puts it even after the 7th one.
:wink:
God Bless you Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, first off, as mod of this forum, I'd like it if no one here points at another suggesting they don't know Scripture. Thanks. It's End Times and each and everyone of us interpret it as it is revealed to us, whether by prayer, meditation, intense study... even the inclusion of Jewish eschatology, which I see as an important piece of the puzzle.

Marturion, you said:

As for wrath yes it is reserved for the unsaved, but God's wrath and tribulation are different things. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. As this verse clearly shows John was already in tribulation on the island of Ptamos, so we can see that Christians can suffer tribulation.

I most certainly agree! This is why I have adopted a sort of post trib/pre wrath position. Jesus, His apostles and all the believers right up to current time, have all been under tribulation... 2,000 years of it! The way things seem to be going, it won't end, it's getting worse. But no one can say in real honesty, they haven't been warned. (shameless plug to read my signature ;-) )

Some theologians declare that the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52 does not include the trumpets of Revelation. Not only is there no Scripture for that theory, but it goes directly against 1Co15:52 itself. If there were any more trumpets after the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52, then the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52 couldn't be the Last Trumpet, could it?

Oh and by the way, you made comments about the 7th trumpet not being the trumpet that is talked about here. OK I can by that, but it does say last trump. So that puts it even after the 7th one.

That all depends on which "last trump" God had in mind. You assume that the 7th trumpet is what God had in mind. Yet the term "last trump" could just as well have other meanings. Just as you assume that God's use of "elect" in Matthew 24 means the church. I disagree with these assumptions. Vic had an excellent post showing what God had in mind by the "last trump.

Thanks Coop, even though we disagree on certain aspects of the end times timeline. ;-)

Marturion and Grace, we as Christians, are ignorant of certain OT feasts and their customs. It's not just our fault, though as students of eschatology we should research and study it all. It's partly our church's fault and the many End Times teachers and writers who don't even give God's feast days a second look. IMO, they are paramount to much of the timing in eschatology.

The final or Last Trump is the last of a series of Trumps blown at the beginning of the "feast of trumpets" (Rosh Hashanah). It's the trump God will blow to awake the righteous dead and reunite them with Him and the righteous living. As many may know, trumpets (the Great Trump) start off the holy Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), just several days after Rosh Hashanah. So right here we "see" there are trumps after the one called the last trump.

Can anyone think of a more appropriate time for the Coming of our Messiah in ALL His Glory? I can't; I prefer to follow God's timing and not man.

Maybe this will help some (it's from a Post Trib site, but it's solid, imo). We really need to take into account who Paul and other were writing to in some of their NT writings.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

Some claim that when Paul wrote to the Corinthians of Jesus' coming at the "last trumpet," he meant the seventh trumpet in Revelation. The problem with this reasoning is Paul wrote in such a way that his readers would know what he was talking about. They had no idea of the seven trumpets in Revelation, because that was not revealed until several decades later. We should look backward in the prophetic record for "trumpets" with which to identify or compare the "last trumpet," rather than forward, because that is what the original audience was expected to do. Otherwise, we assume things that the original audience could not possibly know, and therefore would certainly not understand. Our premise is that the original audience was expected to understand what they were told.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

 

[GraceBwithU]

Vic,
Thank you for the reminder about Bible knowledge. I think sometimes it happens through frustration. I can see that coop is sincere in his belief. I humbly apologize if I offended. And after all I have not found a scripture that says knowing the true answer to this common debate is a prerequisite to salvation. As a matter of fact niether is understanding the elect. :wink: Strange that these two issues are debated so often. :-?

And I also agree with coop's statement about the last trump. I actually don't believe it to be related to the 7th trump and it could mean something else.

The information that you have given here I will certainly look at. However, we may be getting side-tracked on this trump issue. First of all, the timing of the gathering of the church and resurrection can be determined without knowing the timing of the last trump. Actually there is quite enough information about the the timing of the gathering up of the church to reverse the understanding. As in, determine the time we meet Jesus in the air and we know when the trump will sound. Also, if you look at my other post you will see that I haven't used the trump as a means of pinpointing the timng anyway. It is really a secondary issue to me. :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

A point well taken, Grace... my contention was that 1) we ignore too much of how our spiritual ancestors felt about the "end of times" and 2) we tend to look to the future for answers, when in fact, most the answers can be found when we look back into the distant, Biblical past. God's roadsigns don't always face forward. ;-)

Sorry to have disrupted the thread. Maybe it was because I have found this "trump" info to be important. Plus, I don't actually adhere to a future 70th. week or a literal rapture. So, I'm not confined to fitting it all into a neat, little seven year package; I view the harpazo as a resurrection/transformation; I tend to read words like "clouds", "waters", etc. in a way they would be understood in older, apocalyptic writings. That leaves me little to say about raptures anymore.

I've gone from pretrib, to prewrath to a combo of to prewrath/historicism. LOL I fit in nowhere, heh? :-D I just jump in from time to time to keep Coop on his toes. :

 

[lecoop]

Gentleman, we are so blessed that we are free to decide for ourselves, just what these scriptures mean. No one is pointing a gun at us and telling us what to believe. We have a right to our own opinion. Everyone does. Of course, when the trumpet sounds, everyone will know.

I have been accused of not knowing scripture before, and it rolls right off my back, and no offense taken. Of course I have felt the same way about others many times too. However, GraceBwithU, I have a little challenge for you. First, let me give you a little background of my knowledge. The Holy Spirit pointed me to study end times doctrine, about 5 years ago. I could not get away from it. Every time I sat down with my bible, I was reading Daniel, Revelation, or the minor prophets.

I was determined to forget all I knew, or had heard, take off any preconceived glasses, and find out from the Holy Spirit, as the author, what He meant when He caused John to write. I learned years ago, how to get revealed knowledge from God about scripture. If you listen close, you will learn something. Here is how I learned. Many years ago, I was bugged about the scriptures in Mark 16. It said these are the signs that would follow a believer, yet all of those signs did not follow me: in fact, I had not every seen some of those signs. So I started bugging God about that verse. Looking back on it, I had to have supernatural help, because I am not that smart. I don't think I missed one day in six months, of bugging God about that verse. I would start by quoting the verse, and then saying, "God, I don't understand this: it says.......and I am a believer, but I don't see these signs.

Here is the lesson for any who wants to know: if you bug God about a scripture long enough, He will always answer! One day, as I started to say, "God, I don't understand...." God spoke to me in an audible voice. Or it seemed audible to me. I was alone, so I could not verify. So God spoke and explained that verse to me very clearly, in an audible voice. It was the first time God had ever spoken to me. But I learned a valuable lesson, which I am passing on, and that I have repeated countless times.

Now, with that said, I was determined to approach Revelation with no preconceived glasses on. I said, "God, I am going to read this, and expect you to help me understand." So I got into chapter 4, and had questions. I bugged God about the silliest things, like, "God, why did you even include this about John weeping! It seems like such a silly thing, to put in such an awesome book." I bugged God about why Jesus was not in the throne room. I bugged God about why "no man was found." Friends, I have spent years, waiting on the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher, to teach me. On the verses that He has spoken to me about, I have not one doubt. I have heard His voice enough not to be fooled. I just wonder, how many of you have bugged God for weeks about one little verse, and refused to give up until He answered?

Now, with all that said, to our challenge. I ask some questions, but I will repeat them. These all relate to the rapture in at least a small way, so I think it is ok to stay in this thread. Many pretribbers say they are pretrib, but when questioned, cannot even pinpoint the "trib!" My question to them is, then how do you know that you are pretrib? Here is the challenge: find the answers, you who think you understand what the Holy Spirit had in mind.

Can you pinpoint the time of the abomination in Revelation? Can you pinpoint the beginning of the 70th week? Can you pinpoint the end of the 70th week? And better yet, can you defend your theories? Can you explain why John breaks from his realtime timeline, between the 6th and 7th seals? Can you explain why John breaks again between the 6th and 7th trumpets? Perhaps you can explain why Jesus was not seen by John in the vision of the throne room, when there are numerous scriptures telling us that Jesus ascended to be at the right hand of the Father. Perhaps you can tell us the timing of the first seal, and defend that timing by scripture. Perhaps you can explain why the two witnesses are brought in at the precise time in Johns writing, that he introduces them to us. Perhaps you can explain why Jesus said that the cosmic signs just before His coming will be seen after the time of great tribulation, yet John shows us these signs in chapter 6, before the 70th week has even started.

Will anyone "put their pen where their mouth is," and take this challenge?

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

A point well taken, Grace... my contention was that 1) we ignore too much of how our spiritual ancestors felt about the "end of times" and 2) we tend to look to the future for answers, when in fact, most the answers can be found when we look back into the distant, Biblical past. God's roadsigns don't always face forward. ;-)

Sorry to have disrupted the thread. Maybe it was because I have found this "trump" info to be important. Plus, I don't actually adhere to a future 70th. week or a literal rapture. So, I'm not confined to fitting it all into a neat, little seven year package; I view the harpazo as a resurrection/transformation; I tend to read words like "clouds", "waters", etc. in a way they would be understood in older, apocalyptic writings. That leaves me little to say about raptures anymore.

I've gone from pretrib, to prewrath to a combo of to prewrath/historicism. LOL I fit in nowhere, heh? :-D I just jump in from time to time to keep Coop on his toes. :

LOL yeah I know what you mean.
The true test of a Christian is when we can agree to disagree...lol

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,
Well stated.

I have been accused of not knowing scripture before, and it rolls right off my back, and no offense taken. Of course I have felt the same way about others many times too. However, GraceBwithU, I have a little challenge for you. First, let me give you a little background of my knowledge. The Holy Spirit pointed me to study end times doctrine, about 5 years ago. I could not get away from it. Every time I sat down with my bible, I was reading Daniel, Revelation, or the minor prophets.

No offense but this sounds like me. Guess that doesn't help much.

Here is the lesson for any who wants to know: if you bug God about a scripture long enough, He will always answer! One day, as I started to say, "God, I don't understand...." God spoke to me in an audible voice. Or it seemed audible to me. I was alone, so I could not verify. So God spoke and explained that verse to me very clearly, in an audible voice. It was the first time God had ever spoken to me. But I learned a valuable lesson, which I am passing on, and that I have repeated countless times.

Humm...certainly understand that. I'll tell you of my experience sometime.

:wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

Lecoop,
I don’t pretend to know everything. But if you can bear with me one minute I think I see why you have some of these questions. It is because you misunderstood what I told you earlier about Revelations not being in chronological order. It is written in the order that John saw the visions, but John’s visions were not complete enough to stand alone. Some depend on each other. That is why there seems to be breaks. The break you mentioned after the 6th seal is not a break at all. Chapter 7 goes to one of John’s visions of the results of the first resurrection, which is immediately after John saw this:

Rev 6:14
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Jesus has come.

Rev 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:17-18
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Jesus has come.

Rev 20:4-5
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These scriptures together complete the picture. Let’s put them together.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

And after the wrath of the Lamb.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Then back in heaven.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

By the way I did not have this prepared, but I knew it would fit. I deleted the chapter numbers and verse number on purpose. I’m sure you know which is which but you must admit, someone that didn’t know scripture could think they were from the same chapter.
:wink:

 

[lecoop]

Lecoop,
I don’t pretend to know everything. But if you can bear with me one minute I think I see why you have some of these questions. It is because you misunderstood what I told you earlier about Revelations not being in chronological order. It is written in the order that John saw the visions, but John’s visions were not complete enough to stand alone. Some depend on each other. That is why there seems to be breaks. The break you mentioned after the 6th seal is not a break at all. Chapter 7 goes to one of John’s visions of the results of the first resurrection, which is immediately after John saw this:

Rev 6:14
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Jesus has come.

Rev 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:17-18
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Jesus has come.

Rev 20:4-5
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These scriptures together complete the picture. Let’s put them together.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

And after the wrath of the Lamb.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Then back in heaven.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

By the way I did not have this prepared, but I knew it would fit. I deleted the chapter numbers and verse number on purpose. I’m sure you know which is which but you must admit, someone that didn’t know scripture could think they were from the same chapter.
:wink:

All I can do is groan! When we are watching from the grandstands, you will see that God knew exactly what He was doing. You might ask yourself, what reason would God have for "mixing up" the chronology? We write history in a very chronological manner, and God was only writing history in advance. This book was meant to reveal, not confuse. Then there are many chronology type words, such as "after this." The very numbering is chronological, as in 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, which we find in the seals, the trumpets, and the vials. Once one knows where the 70th week is, and where the midpoint of the week is, it is easy to see that the trumpets are in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half. Many, many people try to squeeze the seals into the first half, but that is simply wrong. Then, when you research the woes, also numbered, it is plain that God showed these visions to John in a chronological manner.

Let me share with you something from the Holy Spirit. I was minding my own business, reading Daniel 9 one day, the last verse, about the abomination being in the "midst" of the week. As I was reading it, the Holy Spirit came to me saying, "you could find that exact midpoint in the book of Revelation, 'clearly marked."

It was as if I was a bystander, as my spirit man answered Him, "How would I find that?" He answered me.

"Every time I mentioned an event that starts at the midpoint, and goes to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years. when you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. You could also find the entire 70th week, 'clearly marked."

Then He was gone. I immediately started an intense study of Revelation 11-13, where these five mentions of the 3 1/2 years are found. I guess I studied this intensely for about a month, continually asking Him for help. One day, two verses seemed to leap off the page at me, and I knew I had found the exact midpoint of the week, "clearly marked" as He had said. As soon as I found out what was marked that midpoint, I immediately knew that the entire 70th week was "clearly marked," Just as He had said. That was my introduction to revelation knowledge of the end times. That was also my introduction to John's chronology.

Why the break between the 6th and 7th seal? It is very simple. There were two VERY important events that MUST be accomplished before the 7th seal would start the 70th week. The first event is the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection during the trumpet judgements. The second event is the rapture of the church, which MUST be accomplished before the wrath of God starts. Therefore, John had to break from his realtime timeline, and go into an "intermission," such as during a play. During the intermission, one could go and get some refreshments, and not miss any of the play, for it was "suspended," during the intermission. This is exactly what happens with the seals. They are "suspended" so John can see these two events that MUST take place before the 70th week is started.

It is the same for the intermission between the 6th and 7th trumpet. There are events that MUST take place before the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week. One of these events is that the two witnesses will show up, undoubtedly 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. You will notice that God introduces them to John, just before the 7th trumpet is sounded. Once all the midpoint events are finished, God goes back to realtime, and John sees the angels with the vials.

Seals: church age
Trumpets: first half
Vials: second half

Plain and simple. The Gentiles will enter Jerusalem just before the two witnesses show up. The two witnesses show up just before the abomination event. Michael goes to war just after the abomination event. All these things are given to us in the order that they will happen.

So again I will say, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology [such as you just did above] is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

didn't rearrange anything....only stated facts...the visions are in order to the way John saw them....and oh by the way it is you that has never given any scripture to back up what your wordy post have said...even though I have asked for them you still refuse to answer my questions with scripture. It's mostly just your words. I have asked for just one scripture in some cases and you continue to ignore my questions. Instead you answer me with these visions that you have. You are in the wrong place. You should be teaching theology in some colledge. I would go into things that your statements don't explain and don't fit, but I can see it would be a waste of my time. Good luck-

Sorry lecoop there is not substance to anything that you say it exist only in your mind.
God Bless and good bye.

 

[lecoop]

There is one thing about all our theories of the end times: one day, we will all know for sure. For some, it will be too late. For the readers: are you ready to meet Jesus?

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

All ready here!

Thank you!

 

[lecoop]

All ready here!

Thank you!

I kind of like you handle! It is absolute truth. I wish more people would wake up and realize it. It seems some people are doing everything they can do to burn.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

All ready here!

Thank you!

Turnorburn, do you not get enough sleep, or are you just really bored? :-D

 

[turnorburn]

Ha! Coop I have it, your from Oklahoma right, isn't that the "sooner state" no wonder,
you can't help it, you were born to be a sooner, Ha! what do you think.. :

 

[lecoop]

Ha! Coop I have it, your from Oklahoma right, isn't that the "sooner state" no wonder,
you can't help it, you were born to be a sooner, Ha! what do you think.. :

Sorry, transplanted sooner. Lived so many places, I'm like a chameleon! The first 18 years, Michigan, an ok state, then Indiana, Kentucky, El Paso Texas, Rhode Island, El Paso again, Virginia Beach, VA, Germany, New Mexico (one of my favorites), Idaho, a really NICE place to live, and finally, Oklahoma. KIds are the only reason to live in Oklahoma!

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

I can't win!

 

[lecoop]

I can't win!

Oh! Was that the goal? :smt017

hmmm.

Coop

P.S. Any comments on John's chronology?