The rapture of the Church

[turnorburn]

No that wasn't the point, I can't remember what the point was. When we presented concrete evidence you put no-stickum in the concrete. You remind me of Jack Nickolson when he said, "truth! you can't handle the truth!" Your not about to accept anything we offer, even if it were proof perfect. :

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Vic C.]

OK, back to the topic, which is "The rapture of the Church". 8-)

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,
I'm back.

I have reviewed your post. 75% seem to be on the endtimes subjects. This probably means that this is an area that you have studied and are interested in. However, I have also read many of your post and all that I have read are without scripture reference. And when you do give scripture references it is followed by not the scripture, but your interpretation of the scripture, or the scripture that you quote has little or nothing to do with what is being discussed at the time. This seems to be your way of debating. However, it only discredits your view even more. If you are willing to answer some of my previous challenges with real scripture that is not twisted, the debate may become more productive in your favor.

Also, my last post to you did not put anything out of order. My putting the scriptures in Revelations that a related together was only to show them close to one another. There are many scriptures in the Bible that are speaking of the same events.

In the gospels Jesus spoke his message of salvation and who He was, over and over. Each time in a different way maybe with a different parable. This is because it was an important message. Jesus revealed the revelulation of the endtimes to John in the same way.

You say the break between the 6th seal was because things had to happen. You said the remnant Jews had to be marked and the church had to be Raptured. Interesting that you should mention this.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Rv 7:13- 14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

As you can see. by your own words you have said Johns is about to talk about the Rapture of the church...please note what John sees and what the elder explains to him.

 

[lecoop]

No that wasn't the point, I can't remember what the point was. When we presented concrete evidence you put no-stickum in the concrete. You remind me of Jack Nickolson when he said, "truth! you can't handle the truth!" Your not about to accept anything we offer, even if it were proof perfect. :

In His Service,
turnorburn

Ah! Now we have hit the nail squarely on the head! As someone in English liturature said, there are "two kinds of truth!" (Don't ask me who - that was about 40 years ago!) There is your kind, and my kind. Neither of us is God, so neither of our "proofs" are perfect. I just happen to believe my proofs are better than yours, which is why I believe as I do. My evidence is just as "concrete" as yours. We just have different opinions of the intent of the author in some verses, such as "last trump," and "first resurrection."

I think it is clear that John divided all resurrections from death into life (a resurrection body that will never die again) into two groups: the first resurrection and the second resurrection (deduced from the second death.) If this is the case, then Jesus' own resurrection must fit into one or the other of these resurrections that John shows us. Since John did not see the actually resurrections, but only saw the effects of it, that is the people seated on thrones and those that were beheaded, then the argument that this pinpoints the timing of the first resurrection to only some time after the battle of Armageddon, becomes a very poor argument.

Also in my mind, trying to populate the millennial reign with natural bodies, able to procreate, is simple impossible with your scenario of a posttrib rapture. Along with this, where do the non-believers come from at the end of the millemmium? In my scenario, they are born during the millennium, meaning natural people able to precreate. Not only that, but the whole reason for the judgement of the nations becomes moot. The separation of the sheep and goats will have already been accomplished by the rapture.

Another problem I cannot overcome is this: in the parable of the tares, there are two separate harvests, with one being "first," the the other necessarily after that. it would be difficult to see a thousand years between these two. When you see this parable of the tares playing out?

Then we have discussed the marriage. When exactly will that marriage take place? Apparently you believe that John says it it time for it, but after Jesus descends on the white horse. I disagree.

Luke 12
36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Jesus is speakin here, of His second coming. Note, "the Son of man cometh," and "if He shall come, and "the Lord when He cometh." But notice where Jesus Himself said He is coming from: "when he will return from the wedding..." This first perfectly with John, if we don't read with preconceived glasses on. John says that the time for the wedding has come, then writes of the wedding supper, just as if the wedding has been accomplished, and finally, Jesus is seen on the white horse, after the wedding and wedding supper has ended. Plain and simple, when read without preconceived glasses.

Next, you have to ignore the fact that Jesus said He would go to prepare a place for us. I know post tribbers like to skip over this verse, but I cannot. It is in plain English (in our translated bibles.) Jesus Himself said that He was going to prepare a place, and then come and get us and take us to that place. Therefore, Jesus receives us to Himself, not us receive him. In your scenario, we receive Him, and He fails to take us to the prepared place.

Sorry, but your "concrete" proofs just cannot overcome these HUGE obstacles in my thinking. Perhaps you could explain how your mind gets around these things?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

lecoop,
I'm back.

I have reviewed your post. 75% seem to be on the endtimes subjects. This probably means that this is an area that you have studied and are interested in. However, I have also read many of your post and all that I have read are without scripture reference. And when you do give scripture references it is followed by not the scripture, but your interpretation of the scripture, or the scripture that you quote has little or nothing to do with what is being discussed at the time. This seems to be your way of debating. However, it only discredits your view even more. If you are willing to answer some of my previous challenges with real scripture that is not twisted, the debate may become more productive in your favor.

Also, my last post to you did not put anything out of order. My putting the scriptures in Revelations that a related together was only to show them close to one another. There are many scriptures in the Bible that are speaking of the same events.

In the gospels Jesus spoke his message of salvation and who He was, over and over. Each time in a different way maybe with a different parable. This is because it was an important message. Jesus revealed the revelulation of the endtimes to John in the same way.

You say the break between the 6th seal was because things had to happen. You said the remnant Jews had to be marked and the church had to be Raptured. Interesting that you should mention this.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Rv 7:13- 14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

As you can see. by your own words you have said Johns is about to talk about the Rapture of the church...please note what John sees and what the elder explains to him.

Welcome back! As you know, I believe that the great crowd, too large to number, is indeed the raptured church, seen in heaven after the rapture. I further believe that they were raptured at the great earthquake at the 6th seal. Why? First, that is an event written by John that takes place before the 70th week begins; second, it takes place before the great crowd is seen in heaven, and third, it fits with what Matthew wrote, "the ground did quake... and the graves were opened.

Next, you and I disagree about the meaning of the words, "came out of great tribulation." Most people think Jesus put a title on the second half of the week, when He said, "then shall be great tribulation..." No, Jesus did not put a title on those last 42 months. Those two words together, "great tribulation" does not necessarily have to mean those days of the last half of the 70th week, and in this case, they do not. What they do mean is that at the time of the rapture, there will be people dying for thier faith, all around the globe. We see it now in many countries. Let me ask you: can "tribulation" get any worse for someone than if they are put to death?

Also, my last post to you did not put anything out of order. My putting the scriptures in Revelations that a related together was only to show them close to one another. There are many scriptures in the Bible that are speaking of the same events.

And I wrote "groan" because I believe you are mistaken in thinking they are related. If you say they are related, then I say you are rearranging John's chronology. Let me give you an example:

Rev 6:14
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Jesus has come.

Jesus "comes" in chapter 19. We both know that. But you think these verses are saying that He has come. Therefore, you must be saying that Rev. 19 must fit in here somewhere, or this must fit into Rev. 19 somewhere, to get the correct chronology. Am I understanding you? I totally disagree with this. These verses are saying that the day of the Lord is about to start. The next verse mentions the "day of His wrath." They have nothing at all to do with His coming at this point in time. I maintain that from chapter six onward, things are written in the exact order that they will play out, when they come to pass. (Keep in mind, that I believe the first five seals have already been broken, so I am speaking of from the 7th seal onward.)

If you don't think John is chronological, that is a place we could start. However, since you believe it is not chronological, the burden of proof lies with you to prove that they are not.

I am sorry if I have failed to provide you with the scriptures that I base my beliefs on. If you want, pick some things I have written out, and quiz me as to why I believe that, and I will do my best to show you the scriptures.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Darn tooting!

lecoop,
I'm back.

I have reviewed your post. 75% seem to be on the endtimes subjects. This probably means that this is an area that you have studied and are interested in. However, I have also read many of your post and all that I have read are without scripture reference. And when you do give scripture references it is followed by not the scripture, but your interpretation of the scripture, or the scripture that you quote has little or nothing to do with what is being discussed at the time. This seems to be your way of debating. However, it only discredits your view even more. If you are willing to answer some of my previous challenges with real scripture that is not twisted, the debate may become more productive in your favor.

Also, my last post to you did not put anything out of order. My putting the scriptures in Revelations that a related together was only to show them close to one another. There are many scriptures in the Bible that are speaking of the same events.

In the gospels Jesus spoke his message of salvation and who He was, over and over. Each time in a different way maybe with a different parable. This is because it was an important message. Jesus revealed the revelulation of the endtimes to John in the same way.

You say the break between the 6th seal was because things had to happen. You said the remnant Jews had to be marked and the church had to be Raptured. Interesting that you should mention this.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Rv 7:13- 14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

As you can see. by your own words you have said Johns is about to talk about the Rapture of the church...please note what John sees and what the elder explains to him.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Welcome back! As you know, I believe that the great crowd, too large to number, is indeed the raptured church, seen in heaven after the rapture. I further believe that they were raptured at the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

So in your Bible it says this:
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great earthquake, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

Hummm...I own 21 different Bible versions and around 500 reference libraries. I'll do a search to see which version reads this way.

Also....still no scripture...just your words.

Love you coop... :wink:

 

[lecoop]

GraceBwithU wrote:
lecoop wrote:
Notice the phrase, "the marriage of the Lamb is come..." This is saying that it is about to start - right then! Not after a horse ride. Now notice the highlighted phrase of verse 9. This is telling us that the marriage is over, and it is now time for the marriage supper. If the church was still on earth, they would miss these events, for they surely take place in heaven.


They surely take place in heaven but not until Christ gathers the bride. If the church had been there for 7 years already, why wait until Christ is about to return to earth?

I was searching to find some comment of mine where I did not provide scripture, but I found this comment of yours first. It seems that you are agreeing with me, that the marriage will take place in heaven, and after the rapture, which you believe will be when Jesus descends on the white horse. This seems to be saying that Jesus turns around and goes back to heaven. Am I understanding you? But what does John tell us? Jesus descends for the battle of Armageddon. So where is the marriage?? When is the marriage?

please Give me scriptures that describe the Rapture of the church happened before the tribulation.

This was a statement you made after you quoted 1 Th 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:52-54 the two classic rapture scriptures, and then, Rev 19:11-20, just as if these scripture go together! Now, I could say exactly the same thing, from my point of view: "Give me scriptures that describe the Rapture of the church happened after the tribulation." You see, from my point of view, Rev 19 does not go with the rapture scriptures you quoted. Neither does Matt. 24. If they did, and it was plain they did, there would be no pretribbers, no prewrathers, or anything else but post tribbers. But that is not the case, because there are no scriptures that all agree upon pinpointing the timing of the rapture.

I can show you scriptures, and have, pointing to a pretrib rapture, but you will do the same with mine, as I just did with yours! Go again and read about the great crowd, too large to number, as seen by John and written by him in Revelation 7. But this time, picture "great tribulation" as people dying for their testimony right now, as we know is happening in Muslim countries, and Hindu countries around the world. And again, if you cannot do this, try and explain why God would have shown this vison to John at this particular time in the total of the visions; that is, just before the 7th seal. If indeed, these people came out of that time of great stress spoken of by Jesus as happening right after the abomination event, one would expect that the abomination had just happened, as in perhaps the 5th or 6th seal (this is the prewrathers idea). Right? If not, then John is seeing a "preview" of something that will happen all the way in chapter 19? If not a "preview," then you must believe that the story is all jumbled up as far as chronology, and God just stuck this vision in anywhere.

By the way, if you do believe this group came out of that time after the abomination, when Jesus said it would be great tribulation, can you pinpoint the abomination event? Maybe that would strengthen your argument.

I have looked through my post to see what I might have said without scriptural backing. I guess they are so numerous, I will just have to let you point out one at a time, and I will cover them that way. Anyway, it is far too late at night.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Welcome back! As you know, I believe that the great crowd, too large to number, is indeed the raptured church, seen in heaven after the rapture. I further believe that they were raptured at the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

So in your Bible it says this:
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great earthquake, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

Hummm...I own 21 different Bible versions and around 500 reference libraries. I'll do a search to see which version reads this way.

Also....still no scripture...just your words.

Love you coop... :wink:

Are you just trying to be difficult? I have provided this scripture before: Please, tell me what happened here:

Matt. 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

"the earth did quake" is this not speaking of an earthquake? I did not make this up. An earthquake really did happen, and Matthew wrote about it.

"the graves were opened" What does this phrase tell you? "Graves" are where dead bodies are put. Would you agree that the "dead in Christ" just might have been put in graves? (Not the spirits, which have gone on to heaven; I am speaking of the dead bodies, just to be very clear.)

"many bodies of the saints which slept arose..." Please notice, it says "many." This means NOT a few. This is a "resurrection." These are old Testament saints, who could have been in the ground since the days of Adam - we don't know, because Matthew did not tell us. Now please notice, I did not make this up - Matthew wrote it. An earthquake and a resurrection happened at the same time. In fact, it seems as if the resurrection could have caused the earthquake - or the earthquake could have caused the resurrection. Which makes the most sense? I have NEVER heard of people rising from their graves in California, have you? Therefore, it is probable that the earthquake did not cause the rising of the saints. Therefore, it must be just a coincidence, that these things happened together, and Matthew wrote of them together, or is just might be possible that the resurrection of saints long dead (perhaps for 4000 or so years) caused an earthquake. Now, if this does not fit your secenario of these two verses, by all means, enlighten me.

I guess you have heard of the word "precedent?" Here is the dictionary.coms second definition:
"any act, decision, or case that serves as a guide or justification for subsequent situations."

My argument is that Matthew, putting an earthquake and resurrection together as he did, sets a "precedent." Another words, a "guide" or "justification" for assuming that another resurrection of people long dead, will probably again be associated by a large earthquake. However, if those being raised from the dead are not localized, as in one city, but are found around the world, it would not be silly to assume that the associated earthquake would also a world wide earthquake. Neither would it be unwise to look for a world wide earthquake that might happen at the time of the rapture. There is one for your side, which happens at the 7th vial. There is also one for my side, which happens at the 6th trumpet. There is mention of a huge crowd, to large to number, right after this world wide earthquake at the 6th seal. There is also mention of a resurrection, not too far after the 7th vial, timewise. ( Ithink little time elapses during chapters 17 and 18)

Therefore, it is not a stretch to say that the rapture happens at the earthquke at the sixth seal, and the church is then seen in heaven, very shortly thereafter, having been rapture during a time when many around the world have died for thier testimony, but not by being beheaded, and NOT during the 70th week. John gives us not one hint that these people were put to death. To assume that these were killed during the second half of the week, would be to add something not there in John's narative. John was clear in chapter 20, to show us that those put to death during the reign of terror of the beast, are killed by beheading. John gives us not one hint that this huge crowd has all been beheaded. No, if just read without preconceived glasses, it appears that these people are just there as if they were transported there, without dying.

Now, what other verse might go with these in Revelation 7? Of course, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop
As always you use scripture totally un related to the subject. These are the events that immediately followed the resurrection of Jesus. Also you failed quote the complete scripture.
Matt 27:51-53
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
Sorry no cigar again. yes it does say many and it does speak of a resurrection. but it has nothing to do with the Rapture. This was 2000 years before and no precedent is necessary to establish the timing we are talking about. Also there is nothing in these verses that say anything about them being old testament saints. That is just your assumption. Which is most likely incorrect. (Please see commentaries below) Ya see this event was part of a miracle that was to let the people there know that they had just crucified the Messiah. If they were old testament saints they would not have been known by anyone and therefore the miracle that just happened would have had less effect.


Anyway...if the 6th seal earthquake that happens at the resurrection only supports my interpretation of the non-chronological visions, not yours. Read it again after the 6th seal in Chapter 7:14 John sees the multitude in heaven coming out of the Great Tribulation.

it appears that these people are just there as if they were transported there, without dying.

Yes you are so correct...thank you again for supporting the post trib Rapture.

1 Thess 4:16-17
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
KJV
so if the dead in christ that are mentioned in Chapter 20:4-6 rise first then chapter 7:14 is actually after chapter 20:4-6. Actually it is the same time. John just simply saw it in two parts.

Of course you did say something about the earthquake being a resurrection...Hum...then you say they are alive.

Doesn't matter though 7:14 still says they came out of the Great tribulation.

:wink:

Just for reference... Here are two commentaries on the verses you mentioned. I have a couple dozen more if you would like to see them. Oh the Calvin guy at the end can probably explain to you who the elect are. Although I don't agree with his belief that they were all predestined. I do believe He is right on about who they are.

Matthew 27:52

[And the graves were opened] "Graves" or sepulchres were most commonly made, among the Jews, in solid rocks or in caves of rocks. The rending of the rocks, therefore, would lay them open. The graves were opened by this earthquake, but the dead in them did not rise until after his resurrection.

[And many bodies of the saints arose] Of course, it is not known who these were, nor what became of them. It is probable that they were persons who had recently died, and they appear to have been known in Jerusalem; at least, had the ancient saints risen, they would not have been known, and would not so soon have been credited as those who had recently died.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Matthew 27:53

[And came out of the graves after his resurrection] The narrative of Matthew does not determine whether they came to life BEFORE Jesus rose, and remained in the tombs, or came to life AFTER he died. The latter is probably the correct opinion. There is nothing said of the REASON why they were raised. It is not improbable to suppose that it was, amid the other wonders attending the death of Jesus, to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah. Perhaps some who had been his open friends were raised up now as an attestation that he in whom they had believed was the Christ. What became of them after they had entered into the city whether they again died or ascended to heaven, is not revealed, and conjecture is vain.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Matthew 27:51; Matthew 27:52

And the earth trembled, and the rocks were split. What Matthew adds about the earthquake and the splitting oft he rocks, I think it probable, took place at the same time. In this way not only did the earth bear the testimony to its Creator, but it was even called as a witness against the hard-heartedness of a perverse nation; for it showed how monstrous that obstinacy must have been on which neither the earthquake nor the splitting of the rocks made any impression.

52. And graves were opened. This was also a striking miracle, by which God declared that his Son entered into the prison of death, not to continue to be shut up there, but to bring out all who were held captive. For at the very time when the despicable weakness of the flesh was beheld in the person of Christ, the magnificent and divine energy of his death penetrated even to hell. This is the reason why, when he was about to be shut up in a sepulcher, other sepulchers were opened by him. Yet it is doubtful if this opening of the graves took place before his resurrection; for, in my opinion, the resurrection of the saints, which is mentioned immediately afterwards, was subsequent to the resurrection of Christ. There is no probability in the conjecture of some commentators that, after having received life and breath, they remained three days concealed in their graves. I think it more probable that, when Christ died, the graves were immediately opened: and that, when he rose, some of the godly, having received life, went out of their graves, and were seen in the city.
(from Calvin's Commentaries, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2005-2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

 

[n2thelight]

Chronology of events leading to the end of the age

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world

{Lk 21:12-15}, {Rev 9:1-11}, {Mk 24:4-15}.

But it is written that some will stand against satan and not bow a knee to the antichrist

{Mk 13:9-11}, {Mt 24:9-13}, {Lk 21:12-15}, {Dan 11:44}.

These are known as the Election Of Grace, spoken of as the 7000

{1st King 19:18}, {Rom 11:1-5}.

Satan, by means identified in scripture, will locate and seize God's Election, who are men and women who reject satan as the false christ and refuse to bow to him

{Lk 21:16}, {Mk 13:12}, {Mt 24:10}

Satan will deliver some of these Elect up to 'Sanhedrins' (synagogues and councils) to attempt to "convert" them and make them worship the antichrist as True Messiah But they will not.

LK 12:11}, {Mk 13:9}, {Mt 24:9}.

It is through the Elect's testimony at these councils that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of in Scripture, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

{Rev 7:1-10}.

At this point, the end is very near. The "Two Witnesses", who have been sent earlier from God to lead His Elect in resisting the antichrist, and whom are spoken of in {Rev 11:3-19; are murdered by antichrist and his misguided followers. Their dead bodies are left to rot in the street in public view.

This is done by the religious community at the time, the one-world religion

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

At this point, I would imagine that some who thought that they were really worshiping Jesus Christ begin to get a sick feeling in the pit of their stomachs as they reason within themselves that the True Christ would never do this. They think back to the true Word of God and know that they were warned of this in the Bible, but they had rejected God's True Word instead opting to follow "feel good" doctrines of men. But of course if they were to try to back out now they themselves would be murdered by mob rule, as antichrist has by now stirred the masses into a frenzy. Yes, murdered by the very "Christian Brothers" that had deceived them in the first place. It now sets in: They have been bought and paid for, they have been marked by the beast, and they thought they were such good little Christians; they should have listened to God's Word not the words of men. Put this in the back of your mind and remember this for all you are worth, it still at this time is not to late to repent. If you sadly find yourself like the one above, repent immediately for the time is by now very short!

Deut 4:29-31
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. (KJV)

Three and a half days later, as prophesied in the Bible, in full view of the whole world God audibly calls the Two Witnesses back to life and they rise up into Heaven in the sight of men. We are now within one literal hour of Jesus Christ's return, commonly known as the Second Advent.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe [6th trump] is past; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The following is from the book of Revelation, chapter 20, which is known as the 'Millennium Chapter,' in that it describes the events of the 1000 year period (Millennium) that satan is held in the pit and Christ reins on earth. This time period is chronologically after the time that the Rapture theories state that the "just" will have been drawn into the sky to "Christ" (i.e., Raptured):

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (KJV)

How many "first resurrections" can there be? Only one, there has been no graves opened and nobody Raptured out of here! This is quite clear here. But I understand that by misinterpreting or misconstruing {1st Thes 15-18} some will teach that the subject spoken of is a Rapture. But they don't read the preceding two verses {13-14} which tells you what the subject is; It is speaking of "where are the dead now", it says that if you believe that Christ defeated death and rose from the grave, then you can believe that those who have already passed away in the flesh (died) also rose at the moment of their individual death and are with the Father now in Heaven; They are not in a hole in the ground - only their discarded flesh 'temples' (bodies) are going back to dust.

God took the dust and made a body (in the womb) then He put your spirit, your very soul into that developing fetus, and when you die He takes your spirit back to Him and that flesh body rots back to the dust (minerals, chemicals, and proteins...) that it came from. This was meant to be a comfort to us in that our passed-on loved ones are not rotting in the grave somewhere but are with God. Unfortunately, the false doctrines of men turn it into a fly-away doctrine.

 

[turnorburn]

Great posting!

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

Chronology of events leading to the end of the age

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world

{Lk 21:12-15}, {Rev 9:1-11}, {Mk 24:4-15}.

Let's take a look:



Luke 21
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. [Mat. "the end is not yet;" Mark: "the end shall not be yet.]
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Mat. 24: 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat. 24: 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



Did you get Jesus' chronology? Wars and rumors of wars shall come, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc, but they are not signs of the end! But BEFORE all these (like about 70 AD) bad things happen to them: they are delived up, and some killed. Sorry, Onelove, but Jesus has not yet gotton to "the end." All these things take place during the church age; most in their generation! They are the "beginning of sorrows." Therefore, these verses are not in any way speaking of Satan or antichrist during the 70th week. You missed it by about 2000 years.

Rev 9:1-11

The 5th trumpet will be sounded in the middle of the first half of the 70th week. Sorry,but again you missed it! Always remember the words, "the end is not yet." You are mixing end time events, such as the 5th trumpet, with church age timing. You are "rearranging" Jesus' and John's chronology.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Thanks Coop! know what I mean..

 

[lecoop]

lecoop
As always you use scripture totally un related to the subject. These are the events that immediately followed the resurrection of Jesus. Also you failed quote the complete scripture.
Matt 27:51-53
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

GraceBwithU, you simply amaze me. I hope you never plan on being a lawyer. Of course these events happened when Jesus died and was resurrected. I never even hinted at anything different. Perhaps you need to go and do an intense study on the word, "precedent."

Sorry no cigar again. yes it does say many and it does speak of a resurrection. but it has nothing to do with the Rapture. This was 2000 years before and no precedent is necessary to establish the timing we are talking about. Also there is nothing in these verses that say anything about them being old testament saints. That is just your assumption. Which is most likely incorrect. (Please see commentaries below) Ya see this event was part of a miracle that was to let the people there know that they had just crucified the Messiah. If they were old testament saints they would not have been known by anyone and therefore the miracle that just happened would have had less effect.

Well, it is for sure they were not New Testament saints!!!! And it is for sure they were not people slated for the second death, that is unrighteous. Sorry, there is no other alternative but Old Testament saints. The church was not even started at this point in time. That is, unless you want to rearrange the gospels, as you do Revelation. I suspect that these were "firstfruits" of the resurrection of all the Old Testament saints. No, there is no scripture stating this, It is just my opinion. But the fact remains, God deals in "firstfruits." The rest will be resurrected after the 70th week. Case in point:

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Revelation 14:4
These [144,000] are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If you stop and think for a moment, if a body has been dead for 2000 years or so, it is quite likely to have turned to dust. Where would those atoms be, that made up that human body. Take Stephen's body, for example, or Paul's. It is very possible that some of the atoms that made up these bodies are hundreds of feet under the ground. Or perhaps a part of a tree! But God knows, and will bring every atom back into the original body. This could cause an earthquake, plain and simple. Therefore, earthquakes and resurrections go together. This prededent does not "establish the timing," as there have been many earthquakes; it only helps us find it.

By the way, how did the disciples recognize Moses and Elijah?

Anyway...if the 6th seal earthquake that happens at the resurrection only supports my interpretation of the non-chronological visions, not yours. Read it again after the 6th seal in Chapter 7:14 John sees the multitude in heaven coming out of the Great Tribulation.

it appears that these people are just there as if they were transported there, without dying.

Yes you are so correct...thank you again for supporting the post trib Rapture.

Sorry, no cigar. If you insist on rearranging the chronology, you MUST prove that your timing is correct, and John did not write in an orderly manner. After all, it is you that insists on rearranging - not me. I believe that John wrote these things in the exact order that they will take place. It is up to you to prove differently. And again, you seem to be stuck on believing that these have come out of the second half of the 70th week. If so, please explain how these in the following verse could have been there also [in the second half of the 70th week]:

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them [the church in Thyatira] that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Please explain how these people living in John's day, could possibly be kept alive for 2000 years? You see, there are OTHER meanings of the two words, "great tribulation." Jesus did NOT put this title on the second half of the 70th week. He only explained what life and/or living would be like at that point in time. You can be sure there was "great tribulation" in 70 AD and after (undoubtedly what Jesus was referring to in this verse), and there was "great tribulation" in the 1940's for Jews in Germany. There was "great tribulation" for the girl that was shot in Colombine HS in Colorado. There is "great tribulation" going on right now, in Muslim countries around the world.

1 Thess 4:16-17
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
KJV
so if the dead in christ that are mentioned in Chapter 20:4-6 rise first then chapter 7:14 is actually after chapter 20:4-6. Actually it is the same time. John just simply saw it in two parts.

"The dead in Christ rise first" BEFORE those that are alive and remain. Sorry, but there are no words in Rev. 20 about any group "rising first." You are adding something that is simply not supported by the words written by John. The words, "first resurrection" is a title John gives for the resurrection of ALL the righteous.

Paul did indeed, establish that the dead in Christ rise first, before those that are alive in Christ. Please prove by scripture that those seated on thrones, rose from the dead after the 70th week. That is your assumption. What would have prevented them from rising 7 years before?

Of course you did say something about the earthquake being a resurrection...Hum...then you say they are alive.

I said no such thing. What I did suggest, is that resurrections cause earthquakes. Of course, after a resurrection people would be alive. Isn't that what "resurrection" is all about?

Doesn't matter though 7:14 still says they came out of the Great tribulation.

Heaven could say the same thing about James, Stephen, and the girl from Colombine.

Just for reference... Here are two commentaries on the verses you mentioned. I have a couple dozen more if you would like to see them. Oh the Calvin guy at the end can probably explain to you who the elect are. Although I don't agree with his belief that they were all predestined. I do believe He is right on about who they are.

Matthew 27:52

[And the graves were opened] "Graves" or sepulchres were most commonly made, among the Jews, in solid rocks or in caves of rocks. The rending of the rocks, therefore, would lay them open. The graves were opened by this earthquake, but the dead in them did not rise until after his resurrection.

[And many bodies of the saints arose] Of course, it is not known who these were, nor what became of them. It is probable that they were persons who had recently died, and they appear to have been known in Jerusalem; at least, had the ancient saints risen, they would not have been known, and would not so soon have been credited as those who had recently died.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Matthew 27:53

[And came out of the graves after his resurrection] The narrative of Matthew does not determine whether they came to life BEFORE Jesus rose, and remained in the tombs, or came to life AFTER he died. The latter is probably the correct opinion. There is nothing said of the REASON why they were raised. It is not improbable to suppose that it was, amid the other wonders attending the death of Jesus, to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah. Perhaps some who had been his open friends were raised up now as an attestation that he in whom they had believed was the Christ. What became of them after they had entered into the city whether they again died or ascended to heaven, is not revealed, and conjecture is vain.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Matthew 27:51; Matthew 27:52

And the earth trembled, and the rocks were split. What Matthew adds about the earthquake and the splitting oft he rocks, I think it probable, took place at the same time. In this way not only did the earth bear the testimony to its Creator, but it was even called as a witness against the hard-heartedness of a perverse nation; for it showed how monstrous that obstinacy must have been on which neither the earthquake nor the splitting of the rocks made any impression.

52. And graves were opened. This was also a striking miracle, by which God declared that his Son entered into the prison of death, not to continue to be shut up there, but to bring out all who were held captive. For at the very time when the despicable weakness of the flesh was beheld in the person of Christ, the magnificent and divine energy of his death penetrated even to hell. This is the reason why, when he was about to be shut up in a sepulcher, other sepulchers were opened by him. Yet it is doubtful if this opening of the graves took place before his resurrection; for, in my opinion, the resurrection of the saints, which is mentioned immediately afterwards, was subsequent to the resurrection of Christ. There is no probability in the conjecture of some commentators that, after having received life and breath, they remained three days concealed in their graves. I think it more probable that, when Christ died, the graves were immediately opened: and that, when he rose, some of the godly, having received life, went out of their graves, and were seen in the city.
(from Calvin's Commentaries, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2005-2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

As was written, "conjecture is vain." There is much we don't know. What we do know, is that there was an earthquake, and then people that were dead, resurrected.

"at least, had the ancient saints risen, they would not have been known" This is an assumption. The disciples knew who Moses and Elijah were.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote:

It is through the Elect's testimony at these councils that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of in Scripture, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

{Rev 7:1-10}.

Assumption, not based on scripture. The 144,000 will be raptured at about the same time as the abomination takes place. There are seen in heaven soon after. Therefore, what is there to resist? The mark will not at that time have been established. I guess more rearraging.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote
Satan, by means identified in scripture, will locate and seize God's Election, who are men and women who reject satan as the false christ and refuse to bow to him

{Lk 21:16}, {Mk 13:12}, {Mt 24:10}

Satan will deliver some of these Elect up to 'Sanhedrins' (synagogues and councils) to attempt to "convert" them and make them worship the antichrist as True Messiah But they will not.

LK 12:11}, {Mk 13:9}, {Mt 24:9}.

Again, the timing is off. These scriptures in the Olivet discourse are speaking of times in the age of grace, long before the antichrist will be on the scene. Yes, I will agree that Satan will be behind these things, but not the beast of Revelation. These events, such as Mt 24:9, are in our past. Jesus had not yet gotten to the 70th week in His narrative: "the end is not yet."

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,
At this point, the end is very near. The "Two Witnesses", who have been sent earlier from God to lead His Elect in resisting the antichrist, and whom are spoken of in {Rev 11:3-19; are murdered by antichrist and his misguided followers. Their dead bodies are left to rot in the street in public view.

At this point in Onelove's narrative, He is still in the "beginning of sorrows." Now he has jumped to the middle of the week. The two witnesses show up just before the abomination event, and testify for the next 1260 days. Therefore, they are put to death, 3 1/2 days before the end of the 70th week, and rise from the dead on the day "marked" by the 7th vial as the end of the 70th week. It is quite likely that they rise at the same time that all the old testament saints rise. (Yes, there is another earthquake at that time. What a coincidence!)

Onelove seems to agree with this timing:

Three and a half days later, as prophesied in the Bible, in full view of the whole world God audibly calls the Two Witnesses back to life and they rise up into Heaven in the sight of men. We are now within one literal hour of Jesus Christ's return, commonly known as the Second Advent.

However, next Onelove writes of the 7th trumpet, as if it is minutes before Jesus' return. What happened to chapters 12-19? Again, more rearranging!

What really happens is that When John is introduced to the the two witnesses, probably 3 1/2 days before the abomination, he then takes the readers through their entire 1260 days, and finishes with their story. Then John goes right back to the middle of the week, where he was before he brings up the two witnesses. Therefore, the 7th trumpet is not at the very end of the week, but at the midpoint. The entire 42 months of the antichrist will follow this 7th trumpet, before Jesus comes back.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,
How many "first resurrections" can there be? Only one, there has been no graves opened and nobody Raptured out of here! This is quite clear here. But I understand that by misinterpreting or misconstruing {1st Thes 15-18} some will teach that the subject spoken of is a Rapture. But they don't read the preceding two verses {13-14} which tells you what the subject is; It is speaking of "where are the dead now", it says that if you believe that Christ defeated death and rose from the grave, then you can believe that those who have already passed away in the flesh (died) also rose at the moment of their individual death and are with the Father now in Heaven; They are not in a hole in the ground - only their discarded flesh 'temples' (bodies) are going back to dust.

God took the dust and made a body (in the womb) then He put your spirit, your very soul into that developing fetus, and when you die He takes your spirit back to Him and that flesh body rots back to the dust (minerals, chemicals, and proteins...) that it came from. This was meant to be a comfort to us in that our passed-on loved ones are not rotting in the grave somewhere but are with God. Unfortunately, the false doctrines of men turn it into a fly-away doctrine.

This is so far off from mainstream thought, or as one man puts it, the "pale of orthodoxy," that it is ....... (let the reader come up with a word that fits.)

Question for the readers: what happened to Jesus' body?

What direction will those that have died in Christ be coming, as they descend from heaven with Jesus? Answer: they will be descending right along with Jesus. Yet is says that the "dead in Christ shall rise..." So Onelove, which is it? Are they rising or descending?

The truth is, they are in spirit form as they descend from heaven. Always remember, we are a spirit being, but for now live in a natural body. So as they (the spirit men) are descending with Jesus, God resurrects their decayed body, and makes it into a resurrection body, flesh and bone, and they are once again joined to their body. Plain and simple.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,
Actually coop, I have no real problem with your understanding of the church age being part of the tribulation. actually the amillennialist believe that even the 1000 year reign is symbolic. as is the 7 year tribulation. the 3 1/2 years. all of this is symbolic according to their belief.

Also, the church age is defined by many scholars as beginning at the resurrection of Christ and continuing until the return of Christ which includes the tribulation period. Let's see, I belief it is actualy the sixth age. Before that is;

1.INNOCENSE – (From creation to the fall of man…eating the forbidden fruit)
2.CONSCIENCE – (From the fall of man to the Flood)
3.HUMAN GOVERNMENT – (From leaving the ark to Abraham.)
4.PROMISE – ( From Abraham to the Law)
5.LAW – ( From giving of the Law at Sinai to the Resurrection of Christ)

delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Just for the record this is not saying deliver up to Jesus. But I think you're not saying that as yet.

I know of all these things, I have missed nothing. You can save your fingers from typing so much if you can leave out some of phrases like:

remember the words, "the end is not yet."

However I do understand why you are saying it that way. You are trying to be clear.

Anyway before you go further I need to get one thing perfectly clear. The elect is the church. If you don’t yet understand this you need to study this first or you will misinterpret many scriptures. And if you simply will not accept this, then the debate stops here and can continue once you understand this. If you need a place to start in understanding this you should look at many of the following occurrences of the words mentioned below.

The word “Saved†appears only 104 times. In the KJV
The phrase “Eternal life†appears 26 times in the KJV
The phrase “Everlasting life†appears 11 times in the KJV
The word “Elect†appears only 17 times. In the KJV
The word “Chosen†appears 123 times in the KJV
The word “Chose†appears 29 in the KJV
The word “Choose†appears 59 times in the KJV
The word “election†appears 6 times in the KJV of the Bible.
The phrase “world began†6 times in the KJV of the Bible and only 2 times referring to the election.
The phrase “foundation of the world†appears 10 times in the KJV.


Hey allow me to speed this up some. Below is the second half of the week, (The Great Tribulation). You may go over verses 15-20 if you wish, but it says nothing in those verses to remotely indicate the church being Raptured. So here we are into the tribulation and Matthew has not said one word about the Rapture. But please notice verse 22-26. He is talking about His church and to His church. He is telling us some things to expect during this time in a very abbreviated form, (certainly not everything, no reason for that detail here). He is telling us this because we are still here.

Matt 24:21-28
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Now the tribulation is over.

Matt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Now He has is church. Then in verses 32-51 He describes in more detail what verse 29-31 will be like and to watch for it.

Chapter 25; here he speaks of the ten virgins preparing for the bride groom that is placed here after His second coming and after the tribulation. He also speaks in verse 31-46 of the parable of the sheep and the goats. Back in Chapter thirteen there are a couple of more parables that tell the same story. The “tares and wheat†and “the netâ€Â. In my opinion and also Oxford University, this is back on earth, at the beginning of the millennium. In all three of these parables he is judging, those that are being separated are the church that has returned with Him and those left alive after Armageddon that are not saved. These are the goats. They are judged here and sentenced. Some of these condemned and or there descendants are reigned over by the saints until Satan is loosed for his last attempt. These are the ones that join his army at the end of the millennium. Of course some die and go to the grave along the way to wait for the second resurrection.

Summary:
I have just reviewed 2 chapters of Matthew that speaks of the end times. In these 2 chapters, no so called pre-trib Rapture is even remotely mentioned. Also there is only one trumpet mentioned and it is when Christ returns.