The rapture

[Deborah13]

I still think this is referring to the last trump as in the 7th trump.
Just because the angels as servants of God are the ones blowing the trumpets, does not mean they are not God's trumpets.

Can you give me a reason from scripture why this trumpet could not be the 7th trumpet?

I think we would need to find an answer as to also why it would not be the 7th Angelic Trumpet.

The trump of God, sounds and we are caught up.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

For it to be the 7th Angelic Trumpet, I would need something connecting it to the 7th angelic trumpet. We have believers caught up, we have a resurrection event in Paul's account. These are very big events here as Paul mentioned them 3 times.

Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th Angelic Trumpet ends Tribulation. Jesus said Immediately after tribulation he comes and the sun, moon stars go crazy. That would be the 6th and 7th seal.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

6th Seal:
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John unfortunately did not write in the order of things but as given. These events follow Jesus coming with the angels and the angels take the tares off the earth.

Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Even one that gets reaped after this even gets thrown into a bad place.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Nothing is ever mentioned in the event after the 7th Angelic trumpet about "US" being gathered up by the Lord. The tares are gathered, and those that die in the Lord from that time rule with the Lord.

There is nothing that ties Paul's Trumpets with the 7th Angelic trumpet in Revelation. Trumpets just start and stop events.

Jesus said there will be a tribulation on the Earth that has never been seen and will not be seen since.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

At the time the tribulation starts all those written in the book are delivered... Michael is there.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Micheal is here. Michael is the Archangel.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

At the time of tribulation, We are delivered, there is a resurrection event.

John is told to come up!!

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John shows up in the throne room ..... and there.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Is everyone of all the nations that had been redeemed by the blood numbering in the 10's of thousands and 10's of thousands.

Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Escape all that Jesus said above in Luke 21. Everything, the trumpets, seals and vials.

This is why the 7th angelic trumpet is not the Trumpet where Michael is standing by the Lord in Paul's account and Danial's.

Scripture comparison.

Mike.

There is only one LAST TRUMP.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31


This is the last trump that signals the gathering of the children of God's Kingdom at the resurrection.

Any Trump before this is NOT the LAST Trump.


JLB

Good Morning JLB, Thank you for responding to these posts.

I think we all agree that there is only one "last trump". But is that trump the same trump in Revelation, the 7th trump?
Or is a different trump not mentioned in Revelation at all?

 

[iLOVE]

The FIRST resurrection is the “better resurrection†since it comes 1000 years earlier than the second one. AND...those who rise in this first resurrection are no longer subject to death.

Let me clarify. The saints that are in heaven, the raptured church, the tribulation saints, and the living saints are all included in the first resurrection which is the better resurrection. The comment in post #170 on receiving a "extra arm, or 3rd eyeball is not biblical. [I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; Revelation 22:18 NASB]

The wicked will remain dead until after 1000 years. The wicked will then be resurrected and appear in front of the "Great White Throne Judgment". This is the second resurrection. All of the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire.

The first resurrection is better than the second resurrection. Those saints in the first resurrection will enter into eternal life. The unbelievers (wicked) will be cast into eternal punishment.

 

[reba]

Here are some of the words of Jesus about the resurrection how do our thought/words fit into His?

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Brother Mike]

I think we all agree that there is only one "last trump". But is that trump the same trump in Revelation, the 7th trump?
Or is a different trump not mentioned in Revelation at all?

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

salpigx (Trump) is translated the sound a trumpet makes. Also translated just trumpet. Trumpets were played in a series of sounds or together fading off. The last sound, for the trumpet shall sound.

This does not denote the 7th angelic trumpet in revelations, there is no connection to it being the 7th angelic trumpet in revelations, Paul told us this is the trump of God, not called the 7th angelic trumpet. If it were just the 7th angelic trumpet then Paul would have mentioned it.

I gave the connecting scriptures as to why it's not the 7th angelic trumpet, why we just don't add things to the Word because we want to believe a doctrine. If it does not tell us, then we just don't say it is. that is how we get into error.

Michael was standing there during the Trumpet Paul mentioned, but not mentioned in Revelation with the angel that blows the 7th Trumpet, How the Holy Spirit miss Michael being there?

We have to compare scriptures!!!



Mike.

 

[farouk]

Etheridge. 1849
1Th 4:17 and then we who remaining [may be] alive, shall be rapt with them together in clouds, to the meeting of our Lord in the expanse; and so always with our Lord shall we be

I would take this to mean that as one is caught up or translated, they will be filled with joyful ecstasy (rapt/raptured) during the "meeting of our Lord in the expanse (air)".

I'd be interested in knowing more about the etymology of the word "translation" and "translated" in regards to Elijah and Enoch which is what I believe we will experience during the 'catching away' of the saints. Do you have anything on that?

[MENTION=96902]FloatingAxeHead[/MENTION]: The Greek word in the Septuagint means 'moved from one place to another' (translated). Enoch is also mentioned in Hebrews 11.5.

Blessings.

 

[Sinthesis]

The FIRST resurrection is the “better resurrection” since it comes 1000 years earlier than the second one. AND...those who rise in this first resurrection are no longer subject to death.

I think you are right about this.

 

[JLB]

I think we all agree that there is only one "last trump". But is that trump the same trump in Revelation, the 7th trump?
Or is a different trump not mentioned in Revelation at all?

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

salpigx (Trump) is translated the sound a trumpet makes. Also translated just trumpet. Trumpets were played in a series of sounds or together fading off. The last sound, for the trumpet shall sound.

This does not denote the 7th angelic trumpet in revelations, there is no connection to it being the 7th angelic trumpet in revelations, Paul told us this is the trump of God, not called the 7th angelic trumpet. If it were just the 7th angelic trumpet then Paul would have mentioned it.

I gave the connecting scriptures as to why it's not the 7th angelic trumpet, why we just don't add things to the Word because we want to believe a doctrine. If it does not tell us, then we just don't say it is. that is how we get into error.

Michael was standing there during the Trumpet Paul mentioned, but not mentioned in Revelation with the angel that blows the 7th Trumpet, How the Holy Spirit miss Michael being there?

We have to compare scriptures!!!



Mike.

There is only one Last Trump!

It is at the end of the age, not 7 years prior to the end of the age.

The Last Trump announces the Coming of the Lord and the gathering of His people from the ends of heaven to the ends of the earth!

The Gathering of His people takes place at the Coming of the Lord, at the Last Trumpet.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31

and again -

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

and again -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


The Last Trump is at the end of the age and is associated with the Coming of The Lord and the Gathering of His people at the Resurrection.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The Last Trump is at the end of the age and is associated with the Coming of The Lord and the Gathering of His people at the Resurrection.

You still seem confused here. There is a 7th angelic trumpet which you have not connected to Pauls and you still have issues knowing that trumpets in the bible our sounded together or in a series to denote different things. the last trump (Sound) of the trumpet will sound. It just means there will be a trumpet sounding an event and at the last sound we are taken up. It does not mean the last sound (trump) is tied to the 7th angelic trumpet.

Michael is not even mentioned in Rev with the angel the blows the 7th trumpet...............

There is no scripture that says the 7th Angelic Trumpet is the last trumpet that ever sounds, you have to add that in there. During tribulation we are just given these specific angels that go in order with 7 different events sounding trumpets. How you connect this to what Paul wrote is a great mysterying and adding things that are not even there.

We don't Add to the word JLB, I thought you knew this. Everything must be precise and specific line upon line.

I know you can do better than this, it's not good enough!!!

 

[JLB]

The Last Trump is at the end of the age and is associated with the Coming of The Lord and the Gathering of His people at the Resurrection.

You still seem confused here. There is a 7th angelic trumpet which you have not connected to Pauls and you still have issues knowing that trumpets in the bible our sounded together or in a series to denote different things. the last trump (Sound) of the trumpet will sound. It just means there will be a trumpet sounding an event and at the last sound we are taken up. It does not mean the last sound (trump) is tied to the 7th angelic trumpet.

Michael is not even mentioned in Rev with the angel the blows the 7th trumpet...............

There is no scripture that says the 7th Angelic Trumpet is the last trumpet that ever sounds, you have to add that in there. During tribulation we are just given these specific angels that go in order with 7 different events sounding trumpets. How you connect this to what Paul wrote is a great mysterying and adding things that are not even there.

We don't Add to the word JLB, I thought you knew this. Everything must be precise and specific line upon line.

I know you can do better than this, it's not good enough!!!

Brother, why are rambling on about Michael, and revelation.

I didn't mention that!

Jesus didn't mention that!

Paul didn't mention that!

Here's what Jesus said -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This is crystal clear!

The last trumpet that He sends His angel to blow.

Any Trumpet before this trumpet is certainly not the last trumpet.


Paul said -

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

There is no reason to try and confuse matters. Jesus stated for everybody clearly -

AFTER THE TRIBULATION, HE WILL COME AND GATHER HIS PEOPLE AT THE END OF THE AGE.

There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that validates a pre trib rature.

That goes directly against what Jesus and Paul taught.


JLB