The rapture

[Brother Mike]

KJV – abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

Dan 12:1-2

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up ["AMAD" cease], the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael has cast Satan to the Earth
When Michael “ceases [amad]“, the Great Tribulation begins.

Ok, we are going to have to slow down because I lost you somewhere.

1) Give me the scripture where Michael Cast the devil out of heaven............... So far you have given no scripture saying this, I have seen your assumptions.......

2) Don't post me links to other morons, I would like to see what you know and can prove.

3) Michael stands up for the people. Stands up how?

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:1-2 coincide with Michael standing up and there is a resurrection event. Those written in the book are delivered out of the trouble to come, same thing Paul said.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

When Satan was cast down..................... Now is come salvation and the Kingdom of God......

That has already happened.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Jesus saw Satan fall from Heaven, and because he had no place, He gave us authority over him. It's because of this and the Kingdom of God we have authority over the devil.

This has already happened....... Jesus was there and saw Satan fall.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mar_9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If this has not occurred yet, then Salvation and the Kingdom of God has not happened. No authority over devils, No nothing.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This is the point devils know their time is short.......

Mat_8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Michael has cast Satan to the Earth
When Michael “ceases [amad]“, the Great Tribulation begins.

I have given every scripture connecting every scripture. Nothing I have said is not in a scripture I gave you.

You are saying things with no scripture................... Michael cast the devil out........... When Michael Ceases what??/ The great tribulation begins......

What scripture is that, that Michael ceases and the great tribulation begins.........???

It begins when Michael stands up for the people of God and we are delivered all that are written in the book........... That is what the scripture says and I connected it with the resurrection for you to what Paul said.

OT:5975 ——cease

`amad (aw-mad’); a primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literal and figurative, intransitive and transitive):

KJV – abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

All this and you can't understand a Female Greek noun? Amazing right.........

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

It's the iniquity in the earth that is being let.................... until someone is taken out of the way..... So it's Michael who is letting though the Greek article is about Jesus and the body of Christ? That is nowhere to be found in what Paul wrote, you made it up.

So what would you have us do with the sign of His coming?Or are you like the preterist who claim He came already, don't think you are,so you can't have it both ways.....Meaning the signs were for us,those living to see His return........

If he had not come, then you can't be saved................ I gave scriptures that the Kingdom of God is here, Gave scriptures the anointing is here in power, Gave scriptures that salvation is already here or else we are all doomed anyway.

I am not a Preterist but when scriptures say one thing and Jesus saw Satan fall and the Kingdom of God is now here I can't put Rev 12 into a future event.

If the Kingdom of God is not here, then we are on our way to Hell. That is what your suggesting.......

Now give me those scriptures, I gave you a scripture for everything I have said.

Mike.

 

[n2thelight]

@ Mike

Simple question,before my response to post #135.....What happens when you die?Guess my question is,do you believe in soul sleep?

Also,at what point in time,after Christ sat down on the right hand of the Father,could He have returned?

 

[n2thelight]

At what point in time after Christ sat down on the right hand of the Father,could He have returned?

 

[n2thelight]

In leau of the below verse how can anyone believe in a rapture


Acts 1:11 "Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."


Did you get that? You are going to see Jesus come back to earth, at the second advent, coming in like manner as these men and women have seen Jesus ascend up into heaven. Jesus is going to return exactly as He had left. There is not going to be a stopping in space, while some claiming to be Christians are whisked away, flying out of here, No; it will be exactly in like manner as Jesus' going into heaven.

Jesus left from the Mount of Olives, and He ascended up into the clouds, and He is going to come back in the same manner. Not to park somewhere on a cloud, but as you seen Him go, you will see Him return.

 

[JohnD]

2 Thessalonians 2: (NIV)

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


If this were the only text on the subject I would lean towards the no-rapture camp and see this as the second coming of Jesus. The text goes on to assure us the subject being spoken of here is the antichrist and his brief time on the earth in the end of time referring back to several texts in the book of Daniel.



Now notice:


Daniel 12:11-12 (NIV)
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.


1290 days left in time.


1290 days from the end there will be sacrifices in the Jewish Temple.


Now there is a problem here in the next verse if there is only 1290 days left to the end of time / human history / this dispensation (if you will). Because now it's talking about 1335 days.



... from the beginning of the time period.





Daniel 9:27 (NIV)
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.â€


The KJV says he will affirm THE covenant with the many for one seven year period and in the middle put an end to what? Sacrifice.



The seven years (Jewish decade) is 7 years of 360 days each totaling 2520 days.



2520 - 1290 = 1230 (30 days shy of dead center of the 7 year period).


1260 is the precise middle which is 75 days before the blessing on day 1335.


What's this day of blessing all about?


And what is this business about reaching that time?


I can go into how Revelation 13:1-4 is referring to the antichrist but most here probably already agree about that so...


Revelation 13:5-10 (NIV)
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


Patience of the saints... blessed is he who waits AND reaches day 1335...


BTW 42 months is another way of saying 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.



This beast will get the world to follow after him somehow. How is another thread to post (the Bible says how). But anyway there will be one group of people who do not buy his bull malarkey and who refuse to take his 666 number. You guessed it... believers in Jesus Christ.



Now folks will not be able to conduct business (shelter, eat, clothing etc.) without the mark. So 666 is a very simple means for tracking down the one people who refuse to take the number and put them to death.


Revelation 12:17 (NIV)
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


These people who will be forced into deep hiding to survive will be blessed on day 1335 of the 70th Week of Daniel 1185 days from the end of time.


What's all this about?


Now before folks start siding with the MID-trib eschatology camp, let me say they are correct about the timing but wrong about the setting. Eschatology always puzzled me until I realized all three camps were right and all three camps were wrong. They were right about PRE / MID / POST tribulation timing of the one rapture but wrong about the 70th Week of Daniel being just one tribulation period.



There are two 3 1/2 year tribulations in the 70th Week of Daniel. The first is the time of the patience of the saints (the devil wars against God destroying his people). The second or latter half is the great tribulation the time of Jacob's trouble when God pours out his wrath on the devil and those who know not God.


So the rapture on day 1335 takes place PRE great tribulation, MID 70th Week of Daniel, POST believer's tribulation.



Again this is not traditional MID Trib because they believe the who 70th Week of Daniel is one big tribulation period where God pours out his wrath on all... but God has already dealt with the wrath owed to us Christians on the cross of Christ.


Withe the permission of the moderators and respecting the rules of the board, I can submit a chart I made to give yous guys a visual aid...


This is not date setting btw. The only way to know when the actual beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel is, is when the temple sacrifice is abolished on day 1230.


By then Christians will be so few in number and so deep in hiding I feel sure the beast will believe our people have already been exterminated. And the actual rapture will be hardly noticed at all by outsiders.

 

[farouk]

Actually the tribulation principle (John 16.33) which all believers go through and the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24.21) which they don't, are distinct. This distinctness is clear from these two verses.

(I think so!

 

[Brother Mike]

What happens when you die?Guess my question is,do you believe in soul sleep?

Soul what??? To die is to be with the Lord. I guess the answer would be NO.

Also,at what point in time,after Christ sat down on the right hand of the Father,could He have returned?

Jesus said we do not know the day or Hour.............. When he comes for Judgment we have the exact Half hour he comes.

There are two 3 1/2 year tribulations in the 70th Week of Daniel. The first is the time of the patience of the saints (the devil wars against God destroying his people). The second or latter half is the great tribulation the time of Jacob's trouble when God pours out his wrath on the devil and those who know not God.

Glade to see someone get that right...... These preterist are troublesome.

By then Christians will be so few in number and so deep in hiding I feel sure the beast will believe our people have already been exterminated. And the actual rapture will be hardly noticed at all by outsiders.

I have to actually ask myself in a very Pre-trib rapture event, before trumpets, mark of beast, whatever........... would the World really care or miss us? The way it looks, just like Rev 11 as the World rejoiced about the death of the Two wittiness I am thinking there might actually be some big earth party.

Mike.

 

[reba]

When is the resurrection?

 

[farouk]

When is the resurrection?

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION]:

Which?

Blessings.

 

[fishbreath]

The word rapture does not appear in scriptures. I am always intrested in what others think of such things? This is a rather broad subject. What think you of such things?

Here"s what I believe................The Rapture is the last day. Judgement day! The final day of all things. Please be civil if you disagree.

I do not use the word rapture.
I use the word "translation" which is what will happen to us when Jesus comes to catch us away -- we will be translated like Enoch and Elijah were translated (caught away)
The word rapture however means to be taken into some form of 'ecstasy'

 

[farouk]

The word rapture does not appear in scriptures. I am always intrested in what others think of such things? This is a rather broad subject. What think you of such things?

Here"s what I believe................The Rapture is the last day. Judgement day! The final day of all things. Please be civil if you disagree.

I do not use the word rapture.
I use the word "translation" which is what will happen to us when Jesus comes to catch us away -- we will be translated like Enoch and Elijah were translated (caught away)
The word rapture however means to be taken into some form of 'ecstasy'

I think the ecstasy meaning is a more modern one; the root, older meaning of rapure is the 'catcing up' of 1 Thessalonians 4.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

When is the resurrection?

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION]:

Which?

Blessings.

The resurrection Jesus talks about in John..

 

[Brother Mike]

The word rapture however means to be taken into some form of 'ecstasy'

1Th 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Wycliff 1300's
1Th 4:17 Afterward we that lyuen, that ben left, schulen be rauyschid togidere with hem in cloudis, metinge Crist `in to the eir; and so euere more we schulen be with the Lord.

Etheridge. 1849
1Th 4:17 and then we who remaining [may be] alive, shall be rapt with them together in clouds, to the meeting of our Lord in the expanse; and so always with our Lord shall we be

Also the first 6 English bible with Jerome's Vulgate translated the Word Apostasia as Departure or departing. It was not until the English Word Apostasy that was first used in the 14th Century added that definition to the concordances but not in the Word studies.

Mike.

 

[farouk]

hoc bonum est. Vero

 

[Brother Mike]

hoc bonum est. Vero

It is Good indeed.

Seems people get fooled after the 14th Century when you start taking Greek and Latin words and change them into English words with a new meaning.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

When is the resurrection?

There's three of them reba. Just like a Harvest. Christ was the firstfruits, the rapture is the 2nd. or main harvest,, then the tailings (tribulation saints). When a farmer harvests, he takes the firstfruits, then leaves the main harvest to ripen and gathers it later (this is the main harvest, i.e. Rapture) but he will leave the four corners for the poor. Then at the end he will gather what is left from the corners. Scripture backs this up.

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Then cometh the end, meaning the end harvest, which is after the great tribulation, and begins His millennial reign.

Leviticus 19:9-10
9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God./(KJV)

God is doing all of this according to custom if you think about it. The Rapture is being done according to the custom of a traditional jewish wedding. The harvest, as I have shown. Brother Mike has shown that rapture does occur in the Latin translation of the bible. Harpazo, a snatching up to be caught up with Him in the air. It's getting close. There is unfulfilled prophecy that indicates it may be very soon so you all need to study this stuff with an open mind and pray hard about it.

Damascus will soon be destroyed as is indicated in Isaiah 17 and they are focused upon Damascus and Syria at this very time because of the chemical weapons attacks. Read:

Isaiah 17: 1, 14
1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

14 14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us./(KJV)

At evening trouble, and before morning, it is not? That's nuclear my friends. There was nothing in the world that could do such a thing in the time of Isaiah, but there is now...!

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


How do you get Three out of this scripture?

... Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1. Christ the firstfruits...
2. they that are Christ's...

Two Resurrections are listed by Paul, not three.

There's three of them Reba. Just like a Harvest. Christ was the firstfruits,
the rapture is the 2nd. or main harvest,, then the tailings (tribulation
saints).

The Rapture is not a resurrection of the dead, as those who are Raptured did not die.

The Rapture happens after the resurrection.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/1-thessalonians/4.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-b 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Two Resurrections in this age, not Three.

Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are His.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

How do you get Three out of this scripture?

... Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ the firstfruits...
they that are Christ's...

Edward was giving you Light here.


1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Jesus is the First to be raised from the Dead. He is the firstfruts(s) of them that are dead (Sleep)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive But every man in his own order: Christ firstfruit(s); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

Now Christ is the firstfruits of them that sleep. This (IN) Christ shall be made alive, but this (IN) Christ follow in this order. The anointed firstfruits (IN) Christ first then those who are God's and His at his coming.

The whole subject is about "IN" Christ.................................... Jesus did not follow in this order after himself, or is he in Himself.

Simple sentence structure here. It's not that hard!!! (Unless we have a doctrine to protect!!!!)

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

These are the ones that are his, not IN Christ, Not anointed by the Holy Spirit or Christ Firstfruits but those that made it through tribulation that belong to God and the Lamb.

 

[Deborah13]

Right now I see three groups corresponding to the three harvest feasts.

Passover - Jesus being the first resurrected (firstfruits) and those who were resurrected right after He was. These are the OT saints.
Pentecost - These are those in Christ, they do not 'sleep in the grave' but have 'fallen a sleep, died in Christ'. This is an on going, each in their own order, going to be with the Lord. I don't think we are ever invisible soul/spirits in heaven. There are statements in Revelation that make me think this.

Then we see at the 'last trump' those who are alive in Christ. Feast of Trumpets.
And then is the last harvest feast.

The Feast of Booths/Tabernacles - this is the celebration feast of the last harvest.

In another thread these feasts were explained and I had been studying them. It just seems that God planned all things Feasts. So many times when we look back at the old we see the shadows of the new meaning.

I like what Edward pointed to, too. We just see them a little differently maybe, I'm trying to tie the two together. Could those left alive be the gleaning? Certainly they are those that are left alive still after the others that have died and gone on to be with the Lord.
However, my deductions do not solve the old bodies that are still in the grave years after they have died! So we are either in heaven bodiless, soul sleep is true, or.....?

 

[Brother Mike]

If you look closely at scriptures, at the last trump, the Angels gather the people from the four winds, another clue. Jesus doesn't come gather His bride and then beat the crap out of her in the tribulation, that would make for a poor wedding night, lol.

The seventh Angelic Trumpet ends tribulation, the release of the 6th and 7th seal by which Jesus comes in the clouds with Glory.

The trumpet Paul talked about was the Trump of God, and personal call up and in a series of sounds and at that last sound (Trump) we are called up... On the last sound (Trump) of the trumpet is how it reads in Greek, not a last Angelic trumpet during tribulation. People conveniently miss that who want to stick around during tribulation.


Trumpets start and end events. We are never told to count trumpets as if there will ever only be exactly 7 trumpet sounds. People add that to the Word that God said count them. Adding things just gets you in trouble.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

How do you get Three out of this scripture?

I just explained how a harvest is done in three stages. Firstfruits, main harvest, and gleanings. Scripture backs this up brother. You need to take a closer look at this. I posted all of the scriptures. Will you ignore them?

Look back at Leviticus, there is a third stage.

I am commenting on the scripture you quoted.

I listed it myself.

I will do it again -

... Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

1. Christ the firstfruits...
2. those that are Christ's at His Coming.

Not before His Coming, at His Coming.

Two Resurrections are listed by Paul, not three.

All the analogies, and hyperboles, and Greek female verbs, will not change the scripture.

Christ the firstfruits - Resurrection # 1

afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. # 2

Please do not ignore or change the truth of this scripture.

The resurrection come before the rapture.

Before the Rapture.

The resurrection occurs at His Coming.


JLB