The rapture

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If you look closely at scriptures, at the last trump, the Angels gather the people from the four winds, another clue. Jesus doesn't come gather His bride and then beat the crap out of her in the tribulation, that would make for a poor wedding night, lol.

The seventh Angelic Trumpet ends tribulation, the release of the 6th and 7th seal by which Jesus comes in the clouds with Glory.

The trumpet Paul talked about was the Trump of God, and personal call up and in a series of sounds and at that last sound (Trump) we are called up... On the last sound (Trump) of the trumpet is how it reads in Greek, not a last Angelic trumpet during tribulation. People conveniently miss that who want to stick around during tribulation.


Trumpets start and end events. We are never told to count trumpets as if there will ever only be exactly 7 trumpet sounds. People add that to the Word that God said count them. Adding things just gets you in trouble.

Mike.

The Last Trump is the Trump of God.

God sends His angel to announce the Coming of the King.

There is no scripture that supports a pre trib Rapture. Zero. Not one.

It is a false doctrine.

It is opposed to God's Word -

as it is written -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


  • The Coming of the Lord at the end of the age. After the Tribulation
  • The Last Trump - And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
  • The gathering of His people at the resurrection. - they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It's all there, just as Paul taught.


Myth Busted!!!


JLB
 
There is no scripture that supports a pre trib Rapture. Zero. Not one.

It is a false doctrine.

It is opposed to God's Word -

No scripture supporting the counting of trumpets or confusing God's trump with that blown of an angelic one.
The Last Trump - And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

NO, the seventh Angelic Trumpet, the last trump refers to the sound a trumpet makes in a series of sounds from the trumpet. Look at it again as this is how trumpets are sounded. The last sound (Trump) the trumpet will sound........... Not the last Angelic Trumpet. Trumpet of God, Angelic Trumpet........... Angel....... God......... We should not be getting the two confused at this stage, right :)

Mike.
 
Etheridge. 1849
1Th 4:17 and then we who remaining [may be] alive, shall be rapt with them together in clouds, to the meeting of our Lord in the expanse; and so always with our Lord shall we be
I would take this to mean that as one is caught up or translated, they will be filled with joyful ecstasy (rapt/raptured) during the "meeting of our Lord in the expanse (air)".

I'd be interested in knowing more about the etymology of the word "translation" and "translated" in regards to Elijah and Enoch which is what I believe we will experience during the 'catching away' of the saints. Do you have anything on that?
 
I would take this to mean that as one is caught up or translated, they will be filled with joyful ecstasy (rapt/raptured) during the "meeting of our Lord in the expanse (air)".

I'd be interested in knowing more about the etymology of the word "translation" and "translated" in regards to Elijah and Enoch which is what I believe we will experience during the 'catching away' of the saints. Do you have anything on that?

Well, actually Harpazo (Something like that) was translated by Jerome as Rapture (rapiemur) it's root is Ratur.... or Raptor which is a bird. To snatch away. raptura to seize and raptus to carry off somewhere.

The English version Ecstasy is fairly new and a modern switch over.


I'd be interested in knowing more about the etymology of the word "translation" and "translated" in regards to Elijah and Enoch which is what I believe we will experience during the 'catching away' of the saints. Do you have anything on that?

The first bible doctrines used this word Translated, translation and resurrection. These were the most common terms though bibles before the KJV just had taken Jerome's Latin meaning of Harpazo.

metatithēmi............ Translated was used 7 times in the NT to mean carry over, change sides, transport.

Heb_11:5 (2)
carried, 1
Act_7:16
changed, 1
Heb_7:12
over, 1
Act_7:16
removed, 1
Gal_1:6
turning, 1
Jud_1:4

harpazō used 18 times means to take away by force. Both words are verbs and just describe an action of something. God took Enoch and God sent a nice ride down for Elijah so it would be hard to read much into that as to how it happens.

Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (Harpazo) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Both words used a verbs in concept shows the Lord moving people from point A to B in a blink of an eye.

Blessings :)

Mike.
 
The trumpet Paul talked about was the Trump of God


Sorry Mike, I can't find where there is anything that is called the "Trump of God"? The only trumpets I see are those in Revelation and the trumpets sounded for the feast/feasts. Especially the Feast of Trumpets in Hebrew (Days of Awe).

Never mind I found it, Thessalonians. "trump of God"
 
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Sorry Mike, I can't find where there is anything that is called the "Trump of God"? The only trumpets I see are those in Revelation and the trumpets sounded for the feast/feasts. Especially the Feast of Trumpets in Hebrew (Days of Awe).

Never mind I found it, Thessalonians. "trump of God"

Wow, Glad you got that sorted, I thought I might have made a mistake, but we both know that is not possible................ (We both do know that right???? Um???)

God's Trumpet, His personal call to his Church. Not some 7th impersonal angelic trumpet found in Revelations.

Your blessed Deborah!!!

Mike.
 
The word rapture however means to be taken into some form of 'ecstasy'

1Th 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Wycliff 1300's
1Th 4:17 Afterward we that lyuen, that ben left, schulen be rauyschid togidere with hem in cloudis, metinge Crist `in to the eir; and so euere more we schulen be with the Lord.

Etheridge. 1849
1Th 4:17 and then we who remaining [may be] alive, shall be rapt with them together in clouds, to the meeting of our Lord in the expanse; and so always with our Lord shall we be

Also the first 6 English bible with Jerome's Vulgate translated the Word Apostasia as Departure or departing. It was not until the English Word Apostasy that was first used in the 14th Century added that definition to the concordances but not in the Word studies.

Mike.

No Mike, you are confusing two different scriptures...
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasia] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

King James Version didn't change anything, it says "caught up"= harpazo (Greek) = rapture (in English)

Etheridge. 1849
1Th 4:17 and then we who remaining [may be] alive, shall be rapt with them together in clouds, to the meeting of our Lord in the expanse; and so always with our Lord shall we be

rapt (r
abreve.gif
pt)
v.Past participle of rap2.

adj.1. Deeply moved or delighted; enraptured: listened to the speaker with rapt admiration.
2. Deeply absorbed; engrossed: was rapt in thought all evening.

Etheridge. 1849 is a very bad translation.
 
Etheridge. 1849 is a very bad translation.

It is bad.....

Not sure where I got mixed up though. My point was that Rapture in the Latin does not carry the same meaning as the English word, and Apostasia was translated as departure or departing before 14th century when someone coined the English Word Apostasy. The Words have two different meanings.

Also it's not sure what Etheridge meant by "rapt" a slang for rapture or the definition you gave? Could be he was on the fence so said rapt instead of Rapture.

Mike.
 
Historical sources confirm the gruesome nature of Peter's crucifixion and therefore confirm Jesus' prophecy

Historical what???

Wow, I could have signed up to the History forum If I wanted history. I wanted a scripture and you did not give me one. Not good enough!!!


he scripture of Matt 10:28 does not suggest any apostle went to hell, rather it is Christ teaching that one should not fear a death at the hands of evil doer's if that physical death comes in the service of our God, who alone has the power to resurrect and either glorify or damn for eternity.

I don't remember talking about any Apostle going to hell, what brings this about?


The reason I point out the fallacy in presuming that God wouldn't allow His children to die in tribulation (beyond the reality of two thousand years of Christian martyrs) is that it is based on a false idea of what is important to God.

I also don't remember saying God does not allow his people to die..............

you sure your on the right forum?

Mike.

Is this gruesome enough?

Matthew 14 NIV
8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.†9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.

Acts 7 INV
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.†60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.†When he had said this, he fell asleep. DIED from stoning.
 
Matthew 14 NIV
8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.

Acts 7 INV
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. DIED from stoning.

It's pretty gruesome....... but the context was God willing for it to happen or causing as opposed to God not involved in it.

Heb_11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Before you ask, I don't know what better resurrection means......................... could mean an extra arm or 3rd eyeball or something... Wings even...I don't know.

Mike.
 
The FIRST resurrection is the “better resurrection” since it comes 1000 years earlier than the second one. AND...those who rise in this first resurrection are no longer subject to death.
 
The FIRST resurrection is the “better resurrection” since it comes 1000 years earlier than the second one. AND...those who rise in this first resurrection are no longer subject to death.

I don't think one needs to be martyred in order to make the resurrection of the saints.

Which resurrection are you talking about? Or what do you mean by no longer subject to death? Physical death or LOF death?
 
I don't think one needs to be martyred in order to make the resurrection of the saints.

Which resurrection are you talking about? Or what do you mean by no longer subject to death? Physical death or LOF death?

I did not respond because what was typed did not make any sense or how it applied to refusing deliverance, I guess you get the short end of the straw if you choose to live the 1000 years longer? I don't know.

Mike.
 
Sorry Mike, I can't find where there is anything that is called the "Trump of God"? The only trumpets I see are those in Revelation and the trumpets sounded for the feast/feasts. Especially the Feast of Trumpets in Hebrew (Days of Awe).

Never mind I found it, Thessalonians. "trump of God"

Wow, Glad you got that sorted, I thought I might have made a mistake, but we both know that is not possible................ (We both do know that right???? Um???)

God's Trumpet, His personal call to his Church. Not some 7th impersonal angelic trumpet found in Revelations.

Your blessed Deborah!!!

Mike.

Well I much as like you being happy and I like being blessed :)

I still think this is referring to the last trump as in the 7th trump.
Just because the angels as servants of God are the ones blowing the trumpets, does not mean they are not God's trumpets.

Can you give me a reason from scripture why this trumpet could not be the 7th trumpet?
 
I still think this is referring to the last trump as in the 7th trump.
Just because the angels as servants of God are the ones blowing the trumpets, does not mean they are not God's trumpets.

Can you give me a reason from scripture why this trumpet could not be the 7th trumpet?

I think we would need to find an answer as to also why it would not be the 7th Angelic Trumpet.

The trump of God, sounds and we are caught up.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

For it to be the 7th Angelic Trumpet, I would need something connecting it to the 7th angelic trumpet. We have believers caught up, we have a resurrection event in Paul's account. These are very big events here as Paul mentioned them 3 times.

Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th Angelic Trumpet ends Tribulation. Jesus said Immediately after tribulation he comes and the sun, moon stars go crazy. That would be the 6th and 7th seal.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

6th Seal:
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John unfortunately did not write in the order of things but as given. These events follow Jesus coming with the angels and the angels take the tares off the earth.

Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Even one that gets reaped after this even gets thrown into a bad place.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Nothing is ever mentioned in the event after the 7th Angelic trumpet about "US" being gathered up by the Lord. The tares are gathered, and those that die in the Lord from that time rule with the Lord.

There is nothing that ties Paul's Trumpets with the 7th Angelic trumpet in Revelation. Trumpets just start and stop events.

Jesus said there will be a tribulation on the Earth that has never been seen and will not be seen since.

Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

At the time the tribulation starts all those written in the book are delivered... Michael is there.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Micheal is here. Michael is the Archangel.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

At the time of tribulation, We are delivered, there is a resurrection event.

John is told to come up!!

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John shows up in the throne room ..... and there.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Is everyone of all the nations that had been redeemed by the blood numbering in the 10's of thousands and 10's of thousands.

Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Escape all that Jesus said above in Luke 21. Everything, the trumpets, seals and vials.

This is why the 7th angelic trumpet is not the Trumpet where Michael is standing by the Lord in Paul's account and Danial's.

Scripture comparison.

Mike.
 
I still think this is referring to the last trump as in the 7th trump.
Just because the angels as servants of God are the ones blowing the trumpets, does not mean they are not God's trumpets.

Can you give me a reason from scripture why this trumpet could not be the 7th trumpet?

I think we would need to find an answer as to also why it would not be the 7th Angelic Trumpet.

The trump of God, sounds and we are caught up.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

For it to be the 7th Angelic Trumpet, I would need something connecting it to the 7th angelic trumpet. We have believers caught up, we have a resurrection event in Paul's account. These are very big events here as Paul mentioned them 3 times.

Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th Angelic Trumpet ends Tribulation. Jesus said Immediately after tribulation he comes and the sun, moon stars go crazy. That would be the 6th and 7th seal.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

6th Seal:
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John unfortunately did not write in the order of things but as given. These events follow Jesus coming with the angels and the angels take the tares off the earth.

Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Even one that gets reaped after this even gets thrown into a bad place.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Nothing is ever mentioned in the event after the 7th Angelic trumpet about "US" being gathered up by the Lord. The tares are gathered, and those that die in the Lord from that time rule with the Lord.

There is nothing that ties Paul's Trumpets with the 7th Angelic trumpet in Revelation. Trumpets just start and stop events.

Jesus said there will be a tribulation on the Earth that has never been seen and will not be seen since.

Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

At the time the tribulation starts all those written in the book are delivered... Michael is there.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Micheal is here. Michael is the Archangel.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

At the time of tribulation, We are delivered, there is a resurrection event.

John is told to come up!!

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John shows up in the throne room ..... and there.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Is everyone of all the nations that had been redeemed by the blood numbering in the 10's of thousands and 10's of thousands.

Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Escape all that Jesus said above in Luke 21. Everything, the trumpets, seals and vials.

This is why the 7th angelic trumpet is not the Trumpet where Michael is standing by the Lord in Paul's account and Danial's.

Scripture comparison.

Mike.


There is only one LAST TRUMP.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31


This is the last trump that signals the gathering of the children of God's Kingdom at the resurrection.

Any Trump before this is NOT the LAST Trump.


JLB