the rapture???

[JLB]

That is not the rapture. Angels aren't part of the rapture.

Angels are indeed part of the coming of the Lord, which includes both the resurrection and rapture.


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17


again


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


again



“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27




JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Notice that this verse says every eye will see Him, even those that pierced Him. This would mean that all who are dead will be resurrected at the same time when Christ returns for at that time He will separate the sheep from the goats setting the sheep on His right hand and the goats on His left hand, Matthew 25:31-46. The one and only resurrection of the dead only happens when Christ returns on the last day, not during a 1000 year reign.

IMO, 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Revelation is as much symbolic as it is literal in the visions given to John about the end of days.

Everyone sees Him return, by a supernatural act of God everyone in hell (those who pierced Him) and on earth. It doesn't require they be alive physically.

Most commentaries say "all the nations (1484 ἔθνος ethnos)" in Matthew 25:32 "refers to all the people of the world and not to the nations as such".- Abernathy, D. (2015). An Exegetical Summary of Matthew 17–28 (p. 191). SIL International.

Only "all the people" who had interaction with "Christ's brethren" (Mt. 25:40, 45) are being judged, not everyone who survived Armageddon and had no dealings with "Christ's brethren".

Because only those who aided or failed to aid Christians in distress are being judged, some ancient and modern interpreters believe "all professed Christians" are being judged.

The Sheep and Goats failed to commit to Christ and be saved, therefore they were left behind when the Church was raptured.

The previous context (Mt. 25:13-30) concerns the professed Church, no one else:

`And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matt. 25:30 NKJ)

Another indication the "sheep" are professed, but as yet not saved Christians, is Christ's words "`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matt. 25:34 NKJ). The kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world ONLY "for the Elect".

So the Sheep join "Christ's brethren" seated there with Christ, all the Christians who were raptured at Christ's coming. Its implied they were changed in a twinkling of an eye, translated into the Kingdom like Enoch (Heb. 11:5).

The word "resurrection" doesn't appear in this context because these are all survivors of Armageddon, they are still alive when Christ comes in glory with all His angels.

The goats are cast into the lake of fire to join the Beast and False Prophet.

This judgment happened at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Everyone else, those who survived Armageddon and had no relations with "Christ's brethren" enter the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. Their judgment is ongoing. If anyone sin in Christ's kingdom, they are cast off accursed, which means tossed into the lake of fire:

19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.
(Isa. 65:19-25 NKJ)

Then, after the thousand years are over, Satan is released from his prison and the earth is tested once more, and all who choose evil are cast into the lake of fire with the Devil:

Then dead and hell release their dead and they are raised up either to a resurrection of life, or resurrection of condemnation:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev. 20:7-21:1 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

So there is a "first resurrection" before Christ lands on earth, also known as the "gathering, rapture, change" and another General resurrection of all the dead.

Not one of the OT scriptures you cite prove this isn't literal.

 

[for_his_glory]

Everyone sees Him return, by a supernatural act of God everyone in hell (those who pierced Him) and on earth. It doesn't require they be alive physically.

Most commentaries say "all the nations (1484 ἔθνος ethnos)" in Matthew 25:32 "refers to all the people of the world and not to the nations as such".- Abernathy, D. (2015). An Exegetical Summary of Matthew 17–28 (p. 191). SIL International.

Only "all the people" who had interaction with "Christ's brethren" (Mt. 25:40, 45) are being judged, not everyone who survived Armageddon and had no dealings with "Christ's brethren".

Because only those who aided or failed to aid Christians in distress are being judged, some ancient and modern interpreters believe "all professed Christians" are being judged.

The Sheep and Goats failed to commit to Christ and be saved, therefore they were left behind when the Church was raptured.

The previous context (Mt. 25:13-30) concerns the professed Church, no one else:

`And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matt. 25:30 NKJ)

Another indication the "sheep" are professed, but as yet not saved Christians, is Christ's words "`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matt. 25:34 NKJ). The kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world ONLY "for the Elect".

So the Sheep join "Christ's brethren" seated there with Christ, all the Christians who were raptured at Christ's coming. Its implied they were changed in a twinkling of an eye, translated into the Kingdom like Enoch (Heb. 11:5).

The word "resurrection" doesn't appear in this context because these are all survivors of Armageddon, they are still alive when Christ comes in glory with all His angels.

The goats are cast into the lake of fire to join the Beast and False Prophet.

This judgment happened at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Everyone else, those who survived Armageddon and had no relations with "Christ's brethren" enter the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. Their judgment is ongoing. If anyone sin in Christ's kingdom, they are cast off accursed, which means tossed into the lake of fire:

19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.
(Isa. 65:19-25 NKJ)

Then, after the thousand years are over, Satan is released from his prison and the earth is tested once more, and all who choose evil are cast into the lake of fire with the Devil:

Then dead and hell release their dead and they are raised up either to a resurrection of life, or resurrection of condemnation:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev. 20:7-21:1 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

So there is a "first resurrection" before Christ lands on earth, also known as the "gathering, rapture, change" and another General resurrection of all the dead.

Not one of the OT scriptures you cite prove this isn't literal.

The is no such thing as a pretrib Rapture of the Church (Body of Christ) as you are reading into scripture that clearly states one resurrection, but two different judgements that happen on the last day when Christ returns. You can not read into something that is not written. I used John 5:28-29 to show only one resurrection, but two judgements, but yet you ignore what was already written.

Don't rely on websites to teach you, but get into the word and allow the Holy Spirit teach you.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Why would Jesus say to believers in one instance that His coming will be at a time when not only will no one will expect it, but at a time when they would least expect it ?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

And then say in another instance there will be all sorts of indications and signs by which we can expect and predict His coming ?

"... so these signs indicate that the end is near. Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken."
~Matthew 24:23-28 NLT"

Did Jesus get confused, forgetful about it, and decided to just gave two completely incongruent answers to the same question to cover for His forgetfulness?

 

[for_his_glory]

Why would Jesus say to believers in one instance that His coming will be at a time when not only will no one will expect it, but at a time when they would least expect it ?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

And then say in another instance there will be all sorts of indications and signs by which we can expect and predict His coming ?

"... so these signs indicate that the end is near. Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken."
~Matthew 24:23-28 NLT"

Did Jesus get confused, forgetful about it, and decided to just gave two completely incongruent answers to the same question to cover for His forgetfulness?

The only one confused would be you as Jesus gave us signs to look for of those things that must come first before He returns. We need to be prepared as no one knows the day or the hour, but Jesus said it would be like in the days of Noah for as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, Matthew 24:36-39.

 

[Marilyn C]

The only one confused would be you as Jesus gave us signs to look for of those things that must come first before He returns. We need to be prepared as no one knows the day or the hour, but Jesus said it would be like in the days of Noah for as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, Matthew 24:36-39.

Although we can learn from what the Lord has said, Jesus was telling the people of Israel things concerning THEIR future. Remember that the Body of Christ revelation was NOT revealed until the Lord ascended and gave the apostle Paul the revelation.

`...how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery...which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men,...` (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

 

[for_his_glory]

Although we can learn from what the Lord has said, Jesus was telling the people of Israel things concerning THEIR future. Remember that the Body of Christ revelation was NOT revealed until the Lord ascended and gave the apostle Paul the revelation.

`...how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery...which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men,...` (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

I believe parts were for their future as in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD that He told them would happen, but yet when Jesus showed them things that must come to pass before His return is for all generations from that time forth as they/we would see many of those things come to pass in their/our lifetime and the generations to come until the return of Christ on the last day.

​

 

[Marilyn C]

I believe parts were for their future as in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD that He told them would happen, but yet when Jesus showed them things that must come to pass before His return is for all generations from that time forth as they/we would see many of those things come to pass in their/our lifetime and the generations to come until the return of Christ on the last day.

​

I agree that we see much of what the Lord told Israel coming to pass. However the Lord`s coming for us, the Body of Christ and His coming to deliver them are tow different events.

The `last day` is the time for the great white throne judgment and the NHNE. It is not when the Lord comes for us or later for Israel.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Notice that this verse says every eye will see Him, even those that pierced Him. This would mean that all who are dead will be resurrected at the same time when Christ returns for at that time He will separate the sheep from the goats setting the sheep on His right hand and the goats on His left hand, Matthew 25:31-46. The one and only resurrection of the dead only happens when Christ returns on the last day, not during a 1000 year reign.

After Revelation1 comes the time of great tribulation so it cannot be that those who pierced him are raised from the dead and THEN go through the Tribulation. That is what your view requires, the dead are raised and go through all the bowls of wrath clearly poured out in the then living.

Or we can see that those who pierced him were living when that prophesy was fulfilled. That’s the most obvious fulfillment. Those who pierced don’t just see him, they are severely punished for piercing him.

IMO, 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

I agree completely.

Revelation is as much symbolic as it is literal in the visions given to John about the end of days.

Nicely put. Very symbolic but nevertheless real. Although you and I disagree about the “end of days.” I think it was the end of the age of the Mosaic covenant and you think it’s the of time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree that we see much of what the Lord told Israel coming to pass. However the Lord`s coming for us, the Body of Christ and His coming to deliver them are tow different events.

The `last day` is the time for the great white throne judgment and the NHNE. It is not when the Lord comes for us or later for Israel.

Jesus told Israel that their house would be left to them desolate. Where do you see he comes extra for Israel?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why would Jesus say to believers in one instance that His coming will be at a time when not only will no one will expect it, but at a time when they would least expect it ?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

And then say in another instance there will be all sorts of indications and signs by which we can expect and predict His coming ?

"... so these signs indicate that the end is near. Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken."
~Matthew 24:23-28 NLT"

Did Jesus get confused, forgetful about it, and decided to just gave two completely incongruent answers to the same question to cover for His forgetfulness?

The signs are for the coming judgement that already came. They had to watch and leave town or suffer the judgement. They saw the signs and left.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe parts were for their future as in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD that He told them would happen, but yet when Jesus showed them things that must come to pass before His return is for all generations from that time forth as they/we would see many of those things come to pass in their/our lifetime and the generations to come until the return of Christ on the last day.

​

Jesus said that before his coming there will be no signs same as there were no signs before the flood. Life was normal. Same as before the second coming. No signs. The times “of Jakob’s trouble” had lots of signs.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The only one confused would be you as Jesus gave us signs to look for of those things that must come first before He returns. We need to be prepared as no one knows the day or the hour, but Jesus said it would be like in the days of Noah for as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, Matthew 24:36-39.

If certain " Things" " must come First " wouldn't you be expecting His coming more than ever once these things had come to pass ?
This is not congruent at all with Jesus's warning that He will come when we LEAST EXPECT IT ?
How can Jesus's two diametrically opposed admonitions be about a singular event ?
Please explain ?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

[Consecrated Life]

The signs are for the coming judgement that already came. They had to watch and leave town or suffer the judgement. They saw the signs and left.

What " judgement " ?

 

[for_his_glory]

If certain " Things" " must come First " wouldn't you be expecting His coming more than ever once these things had come to pass ?

No one knows when all those things Jesus told us about in the signs of the end of the age that will take place in Matthew 24 as some have come to pass, more will come to pass and continue until the day that Christ returns. We are not to fear those things, but be prepared for the day and hour of His coming as no one knows when that will be.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What " judgement " ?

The fall of Jerusalem was the judgment of God on those who pierced Him as well as the blood of all the prophets required of that generation. The particulars of that and the surrounding area in the years before match Matthew 24 as well as Revelation, the woes and troubles, that is. When Jesus said he is coming in the clouds to get them, more or less, the Hebrews knew he was speaking of judgment not a cumulus elevator down.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus said that before his coming there will be no signs same as there were no signs before the flood. Life was normal. Same as before the second coming. No signs. The times “of Jakob’s trouble” had lots of signs.

So do you deny what Jesus said, especially in Matthew 24:29-31, because it sure looks like a sign to me that He gave everyone to look for. Like those in the days of Noah, just like until the coming of the Lord on the last day, were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:38-39. No one listened to Noah, just like they reject Christ and what He has already given us in His word.

Time of Jacob's trouble

Jeremiah 30 vs. 1, 2 starts out with the Lord speaking to Jeremiah about Judah an Israel. Vs 3 the Lord promises that one day in the future as the day will come that He will bring Judah and Israel back to the land He had promised to their forefathers. Vs. 5 describes a time of great fear and trembling. Vs. 6 describes this time in a way that pictures men going through the pains of childbirth, meaning great agony. Vs. 7 For that day is great so that no other day will ever be like it. This is a reference to Matthew 24:21; Rev 7:1-8. But, there is hope for Judah and Israel for though this is called the time of Jacob's trouble the Lord promises He will save Jacob (referring to Judah and Israel, not literally Jacob) out of this time of great trouble, Rev 19:11-21. Vs. 8 It shall come to pass in that day (in that day means a future day) says the Lord that He will break his yoke from off their necks and will burst thy bonds and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him. His yoke is that of Satan who for now controls the evil principalities of this world that even today, until Christ returns, persecutes God's people. Vs. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King, meaning Jesus whom God will raise up (resurrection) unto them. Vs 10, 11 the Lord says, I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you declares the Lord.

Catching up of the Saints

The catching up of the saints, meaning those alive at His coming and those who are in their graves will be changed and raised up together to meet Jesus in the air as this happens at the second coming of Christ on the last day when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations here on earth, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 18; Rev 19:11-21

 

[for_his_glory]

When Jesus said he is coming in the clouds to get them, more or less, the Hebrews knew he was speaking of judgment not a cumulus elevator down.

When did Jesus return in the clouds?

 

[Consecrated Life]

No one knows when all those things Jesus told us about in the signs of the end of the age that will take place in Matthew 24 as some have come to pass, more will come to pass and continue until the day that Christ returns. We are not to fear those things, but be prepared for the day and hour of His coming as no one knows when that will be.

Why would Jesus tell us to know that the time of His coming gets closer with the passing of these "signs", but then
warn us that He will come at a time when we would never believe He is coming ?
The two admonitions are completely incongruent .
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

[Consecrated Life]

The fall of Jerusalem was the judgment of God on those who pierced Him as well as the blood of all the prophets required of that generation. The particulars of that and the surrounding area in the years before match Matthew 24 as well as Revelation, the woes and troubles, that is. When Jesus said he is coming in the clouds to get them, more or less, the Hebrews knew he was speaking of judgment not a cumulus elevator down.

I thought we were speaking of Jesus's future return to earth ?
He did not return for the destruction of Jerusalem.