the rapture???

[Dorothy Mae]

When did Jesus return in the clouds?

No, the expression “coming in the clouds” to the Hebrews as in the OT, means coming in judgement that wipes out a people. That imagery in the OT was used for Gods judgement. It isn’t describing a mode of transportation. That was not the second coming.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I thought we were speaking of Jesus's future return to earth ?
He did not return for the destruction of Jerusalem.

Well, that was the event predicted in the first part of Matthew 24. The second part is the second coming, a future event.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree that we see much of what the Lord told Israel coming to pass. However the Lord`s coming for us, the Body of Christ and His coming to deliver them are tow different events.

The `last day` is the time for the great white throne judgment and the NHNE. It is not when the Lord comes for us or later for Israel.

It's all the same event that happens on the last day when Christ returns with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21. There is no two different events of the catching up of the saints.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ does not come back twice, but only once and when He does He will send His angels out to the four corners of the world and gather His own to Him to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-56; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, the expression “coming in the clouds” to the Hebrews as in the OT, means coming in judgement that wipes out a people. That imagery in the OT was used for Gods judgement. It isn’t describing a mode of transportation. That was not the second coming.

Coming in the clouds is not an expression, but that of being literal on the last day when Christ returns in the clouds, gathers His own and final judgement is made upon all men and women, Rev 19:11-21; 20:11-15. The destruction of Jerusalem, which has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times are not God's judgement against Israel, but the consequences for the actions of Israel being disobedient to God as they went after other gods.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So do you deny what Jesus said, especially in Matthew 24:29-31,

So do you deny what Jesus said in Matthew 24: 37-39?

because it sure looks like a sign to me that He gave everyone to look for. Like those in the days of Noah, just like until the coming of the Lord on the last day, were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:38-39. No one listened to Noah, just like they reject Christ and what He has already given us in His word.

What was the sign given before the flood? Noah didn’t preach Christ, btw, so they didn’t reject Christ.

Time of Jacob's trouble

Jeremiah 30 vs. 1, 2 starts out with the Lord speaking to Jeremiah about Judah an Israel. Vs 3 the Lord promises that one day in the future as the day will come that He will bring Judah and Israel back to the land He had promised to their forefathers.

He did. In the days of Nehemiah they were brought back to the land.

Vs. 5 describes a time of great fear and trembling. Vs. 6 describes this time in a way that pictures men going through the pains of childbirth, meaning great agony. Vs. 7 For that day is great so that no other day will ever be like it. This is a reference to Matthew 24:21; Rev 7:1-8.

That was the Romans destroying Israel and the fall of Jerusalem. Notice the last prophet Jesus, never said Israel would be returned to the land. Jeremiah said so because they would be returned to the land after being sent out.

But, there is hope for Judah and Israel for though this is called the time of Jacob's trouble the Lord promises He will save Jacob (referring to Judah and Israel, not literally Jacob) out of this time of great trouble, Rev 19:11-21.

But where is Israel mentioned in that chapter? Where is the promise of Judah being delivered out of that trouble? I do not see it.

Vs. 8 It shall come to pass in that day (in that day means a future day) says the Lord that He will break his yoke from off their necks and will burst thy bonds and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him. His yoke is that of Satan who for now controls the evil principalities of this world that even today, until Christ returns, persecutes God's people. Vs. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King, meaning Jesus whom God will raise up (resurrection) unto them. Vs 10, 11 the Lord says, I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you declares the Lord.

That is not in Revelation. I do not see in Revelation or Matthew that Satan is persecuting God's people, the Christians. We have freedom in the west and many countries and have for a few centuries. We are not being persecuted.

Catching up of the Saints

The catching up of the saints, meaning those alive at His coming and those who are in their graves will be changed and raised up together to meet Jesus in the air as this happens at the second coming of Christ on the last day when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations here on earth, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 18; Rev 19:11-21

Well, I do agree, of course, that the living will be affected by the Resurrection which has not happened. I do not see that Jesus makes an end to all abominations in those verses. I read Matthew 24 from verse 36 onward and do not see this. Can you point out the specific verses that say this? Do you mean Rev. 19?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Coming in the clouds is not an expression, but that of being literal on the last day when Christ returns in the clouds, gathers His own and final judgement is made upon all men and women, Rev 19:11-21; 20:11-15. The destruction of Jerusalem, which has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times are not God's judgement against Israel, but the consequences for the actions of Israel being disobedient to God as they went after other gods.

Except coming in the clouds is an expression in the Old Testament as well as the sun and moon are mentioned and it was not God literally coming in the clouds nor the sun or moon changed. Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the blood of all the prophets would be required of that generation. This was not like any of those times. But my dear sister, we disagree on this. We can discuss it but for now it will be a "you are wrong and that does not mean that" between us. Is that worth it?

 

[for_his_glory]

Except coming in the clouds is an expression in the Old Testament as well as the sun and moon are mentioned and it was not God literally coming in the clouds nor the sun or moon changed. Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the blood of all the prophets would be required of that generation. This was not like any of those times. But my dear sister, we disagree on this. We can discuss it but for now it will be a "you are wrong and that does not mean that" between us. Is that worth it?

It doesn't have to be a right or wrong discussion as neither one of us wants that, but giving our understanding of what has already been written as we cross reference that of the OT with the NT. You are a Preterist and I a Futurist if that's the label others want to use. I see some prophecies that have come to pass, but yet others that must come first yet before Christ returns in the clouds. I will start with these three different passages as I can only find one in the OT that speaks about Christ returning in the clouds. There may be more, but only one I can find.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Cross reference Matthew 24:29-31 with Daniel's vision n Daniel 7:9-10.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now cross reference all the above with Rev 11:11-15

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Daniel 7:9-10 is the only OT verse that speaks about Jesus coming in the clouds and at that time judgement will be made when the books are opened in what many call "The Great White Throne Judgment" that happens after Christ returns on the last day.

The last day is not a 24 hour period, but God's timing that we could never understand the length of that day.

 

[for_his_glory]

So do you deny what Jesus said in Matthew 24: 37-39?

What was the sign given before the flood? Noah didn’t preach Christ, btw, so they didn’t reject Christ.

He did. In the days of Nehemiah they were brought back to the land.

That was the Romans destroying Israel and the fall of Jerusalem. Notice the last prophet Jesus, never said Israel would be returned to the land. Jeremiah said so because they would be returned to the land after being sent out.

But where is Israel mentioned in that chapter? Where is the promise of Judah being delivered out of that trouble? I do not see it.

That is not in Revelation. I do not see in Revelation or Matthew that Satan is persecuting God's people, the Christians. We have freedom in the west and many countries and have for a few centuries. We are not being persecuted.

Well, I do agree, of course, that the living will be affected by the Resurrection which has not happened. I do not see that Jesus makes an end to all abominations in those verses. I read Matthew 24 from verse 36 onward and do not see this. Can you point out the specific verses that say this? Do you mean Rev. 19?

I will address this tomorrow when I have more time and not so tired

 

[Consecrated Life]

If certain " Things" " must come First " wouldn't you be expecting His coming more than ever once these things had come to pass ?
This is not congruent at all with Jesus's warning that He will come when we LEAST EXPECT IT ?
How can Jesus's two diametrically opposed admonitions be about a singular event ?
Please explain , anyone ?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It doesn't have to be a right or wrong discussion as neither one of us wants that, but giving our understanding of what has already been written as we cross reference that of the OT with the NT. You are a Preterist and I a Futurist if that's the label others want to use. I see some prophecies that have come to pass, but yet others that must come first yet before Christ returns in the clouds. I will start with these three different passages as I can only find one in the OT that speaks about Christ returning in the clouds. There may be more, but only one I can find.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Cross reference Matthew 24:29-31 with Daniel's vision n Daniel 7:9-10.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now cross reference all the above with Rev 11:11-15

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Daniel 7:9-10 is the only OT verse that speaks about Jesus coming in the clouds and at that time judgement will be made when the books are opened in what many call "The Great White Throne Judgment" that happens after Christ returns on the last day.

The last day is not a 24 hour period, but God's timing that we could never understand the length of that day.

I like discussing these things. A difficulty in discussing this with you is that you have the tendency to throw in a lot of scriptures that have nothing to do with the subject. The Daniel reference, for example, has the person SEATED, not coming. The Daniel reference is clearly Judgement Day.

The passages in Rev 12, 15 and 19 are the same, nothing to do with the matter at hand.

There is no reference to Jesus coming in the clouds in the Old Testament. The reference in Matthew 24:20 is the SIGN of the Son of Man, not the Son of Man, which was a comet in the shape of a scimitar hung over the city for a year. That was that fulfillment. After that year the judgement began. “Coming in the clouds to the Hebrews meant JUDGEMENT of God which is why they got angry and didn’t laugh. Jesus said to them that God will judge them for what they are doing to him.

The OT references using the coming in heavenly metaphors like clouds or the host of heaven or such are:

Isaiah 19: 1 destruction of Egypt..coming in clouds
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
2And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians,

Isaiah 34:3-5 against Edom

All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll.

Jeremiah 4 Destruction Jerusalem coming in clouds (fulfilled in Jeremiah’s day)
Ezekiel 30-32 Against Egypt reference to clouds

Wail, ‘Alas for the day!’
3For the day is near,
the day of the LORD is near;
it will be a day of clouds,
a time of doom fora the nations.
4A sword shall come upon Egypt,

This is not used to describe a heavenly vehicle. Jesus coming from above in a misty carpet has no significance. In the Bible it means terrible judgement by God and the descriptions of the particulars often match each other.

This is the preterist position although I know you take the futurist position. I appreciate you accepting that label although you, like I, dislike the label.

 

[Marilyn C]

It's all the same event that happens on the last day when Christ returns with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21. There is no two different events of the catching up of the saints.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ does not come back twice, but only once and when He does He will send His angels out to the four corners of the world and gather His own to Him to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-56; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Hi fhg,

So let`s have a closer look at those scriptures.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You have `all that are in the graves,` in bold. That is the point `ALL.` And that tells us that it is at the Great White Throne.

` Then I saw a great white throne.....the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them...` (Rev. 20: 11 - 13)

Whereas when the Lord comes for His Body and brings with Him those who are asleep in Him, then it is ONLY the `dead in Christ who will rise,` and join with those who are alive. (1 Thess. 4: 16 & 17)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I will address this tomorrow when I have more time and not so tired

I understand. My main question is what was the sign given before the flood?

 

[for_his_glory]

I understand. My main question is what was the sign given before the flood?

The sign would be Noah building an ark for at that time it had never rained on earth before the flood. Instead of them asking why he was building an ark all the people did was mock him, rejecting God in whom I would only assume he tried to preach to them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Whereas when the Lord comes for His Body and brings with Him those who are asleep in Him, then it is ONLY the `dead in Christ who will rise,` and join with those who are alive. (1 Thess. 4: 16 & 17)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice what I made bold as Christ only returns one time on the last day in which we call His second coming. Then all that are His own (dead and alive at His coming) will the angels gather up to the clouds to meet Him in the air then will we be with the Lord forever, Matthew 24:29-31.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(one resurrection, but two separate judgements when the books are opened)

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This all takes place on the last day when Christ returns. The words "last day" is in God's timing as in the twinkling of an eye as I believe when Christ returns all things will be made quick. I do not see the last day as a 24 hour period, just like I do not see the 1000 years being literal, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2 Peter 3:8.

I use to believe all those teachings on a pretrib Rapture as at that time I believed what man taught and even though I could not find it in the scriptures they use, I just thought I didn't have enough understanding. What started me questioning their teachings was when I read Rev 4:1-2, which they love to use for proof, but no proof was found just like all the scriptures they use.

 

[for_his_glory]

I like discussing these things. A difficulty in discussing this with you is that you have the tendency to throw in a lot of scriptures that have nothing to do with the subject. The Daniel reference, for example, has the person SEATED, not coming. The Daniel reference is clearly Judgement Day.

The passages in Rev 12, 15 and 19 are the same, nothing to do with the matter at hand.

There is no reference to Jesus coming in the clouds in the Old Testament. The reference in Matthew 24:20 is the SIGN of the Son of Man, not the Son of Man, which was a comet in the shape of a scimitar hung over the city for a year. That was that fulfillment. After that year the judgement began. “Coming in the clouds to the Hebrews meant JUDGEMENT of God which is why they got angry and didn’t laugh. Jesus said to them that God will judge them for what they are doing to him.

The OT references using the coming in heavenly metaphors like clouds or the host of heaven or such are:

Isaiah 19: 1 destruction of Egypt..coming in clouds
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
2And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians,

Isaiah 34:3-5 against Edom

All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll.

Jeremiah 4 Destruction Jerusalem coming in clouds (fulfilled in Jeremiah’s day)
Ezekiel 30-32 Against Egypt reference to clouds

Wail, ‘Alas for the day!’
3For the day is near,
the day of the LORD is near;
it will be a day of clouds,
a time of doom fora the nations.
4A sword shall come upon Egypt,

This is not used to describe a heavenly vehicle. Jesus coming from above in a misty carpet has no significance. In the Bible it means terrible judgement by God and the descriptions of the particulars often match each other.

This is the preterist position although I know you take the futurist position. I appreciate you accepting that label although you, like I, dislike the label.

My tendency in giving so much scripture is for others to go and read them for themselves as I ask no one to believe what I teach, but to do their own searching within them. Every scripture that I have given in this thread has everything to do with the topic, but I don't expect everyone to see them that way.

As you being a Preterist I do not expect you to understand scripture the way I do. It's unfortunate, but I accept it. All we can do is give our understanding, even if we disagree.

 

[for_his_glory]

So do you deny what Jesus said in Matthew 24: 37-39?

What was the sign given before the flood? Noah didn’t preach Christ, btw, so they didn’t reject Christ.

He did. In the days of Nehemiah they were brought back to the land.

That was the Romans destroying Israel and the fall of Jerusalem. Notice the last prophet Jesus, never said Israel would be returned to the land. Jeremiah said so because they would be returned to the land after being sent out.

But where is Israel mentioned in that chapter? Where is the promise of Judah being delivered out of that trouble? I do not see it.

That is not in Revelation. I do not see in Revelation or Matthew that Satan is persecuting God's people, the Christians. We have freedom in the west and many countries and have for a few centuries. We are not being persecuted.

Well, I do agree, of course, that the living will be affected by the Resurrection which has not happened. I do not see that Jesus makes an end to all abominations in those verses. I read Matthew 24 from verse 36 onward and do not see this. Can you point out the specific verses that say this? Do you mean Rev. 19?

These are your views and you have every right to them even if we disagree as we have been over all of this many times so really, with all due respect, do not feel the need to keep rehashing them as we will never see eye to eye on this.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My tendency in giving so much scripture is for others to go and read them for themselves as I ask no one to believe what I teach, but to do their own searching within them. Every scripture that I have given in this thread has everything to do with the topic, but I don't expect everyone to see them that way.

No, most of them have nothing to do with it and I pointed that out.

As you being a Preterist I do not expect you to understand scripture the way I do. It's unfortunate, but I accept it. All we can do is give our understanding, even if we disagree.

And I expect you do not understand scripture the way I do, being a futurist. You also do not know know history in those years after John penned Revelation.

It’s too bad because it’s a totally inspiring matter to see how the words/revelation of Jesus the Christ was fulfilled. I found that my faith in Christ as King of Kings increased as I understood how He works.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

These are your views and you have every right to them even if we disagree as we have been over all of this many times so really, with all due respect, do not feel the need to keep rehashing them as we will never see eye to eye on this.

This means you refuse to tell me what you think the signs in Noah’s day were right?

 

[for_his_glory]

If certain " Things" " must come First " wouldn't you be expecting His coming more than ever once these things had come to pass ?
This is not congruent at all with Jesus's warning that He will come when we LEAST EXPECT IT ?
How can Jesus's two diametrically opposed admonitions be about a singular event ?
Please explain , anyone ?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

These are all the events that will lead up to the return of Christ. Just like Matthew 24:36-39 Jesus will return when we least expect it, but to those who know what to watch for will not be taken as a thief in the night.

 

[jerry63935]

So. I was always taught that the rapture would happen, and then the tribulation,

the rapture/ Christ coming to get his church could be at any day hour minute or second