Re: Confusion
Orthodox Christian said:
We are not saved by our faith in Christ- we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
And can His faith ever fail to accomplish the work of this faith in a man?
No.
Your apostate thought is defeated by your own words,...... again OC.
But lets take a look at some other parts of your post.
Orthodox Christian said:
We were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.
And yet, Christ Jesus, He who is our salvation, is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Additionally, Ephesians 1:4 declares that God chose us in Christ Jesus from before the foundation of the world; meaning, that from eternity past, before He created us, God chose us according to His infinite foresight. This implies that the world, which is the universe, was founded for man's existence to fulfill God's eternal purpose.
And this purpose being.... firstly, holy, meaning not only sanctified, separated unto God, but also different, distinct, from everything that is common. Only God is different, distinct, from all things. Hence, He is holy; holiness is His nature. He chose us that we should be holy. He makes us holy by imparting Himself, the Holy One, into our being, that our whole being may be permeated and saturated with His holy nature. For us, God's chosen ones, to be holy is to partake of God's divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) and to have our whole being permeated with God Himself. This is different from mere sinless perfection or sinless purity. This makes our being holy in God's nature and character, just like God Himself.
And secondly, in love.
Love here refers to the love with which God loves His chosen ones and His chosen ones love Him. It is in this love, in such a love, that God's chosen ones become holy and without blemish before Him. First, God loved us; then this divine love inspires us to love Him in return. In such a condition and atmosphere of love, we are saturated with God to be holy and without blemish, just as He is.
God being the one who purposed and sanctifies because of His love with which He loves His chosen ones, we are guaranteed the following (which is found in verses 5 - 12 of the same chapter)....
Ephesians 1:5-12, "Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the Beloved; predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses, according to the riches of His grace, which He caused to abound to us in all wisdom and prudence, making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself, unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him; In whom also we were designated as an inheritance, having been predestinated according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we would be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ."
So yes, absolutely we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved,.... as the economy of God's full salvation is worked out in all of us, but in this economy there is the declared and irrevocable guarantee of God Himself that the Son will lose none out of His hand.
It is one this divine guarantee that our complete salvation is founded, and not in our efforts.
And how does one come to lay hold of, possess, receive this gift that has the divine guarantee?
By believing that Jesus shed His blood as payment for our sins, past, present, and future, and that He is risen that we in Him may have eternal life.
And the wonderful thing about even this, is that it is the Lord as the Spirit in our regenerated spirit that initiates, carries out, and completes our believing unto full salvation.
Christ never fails, and therefore salvation belongs to us.
Orthodox Christian said:
Jesus clearly states that those who persevere to the end shall be saved.
Once again, absolutely He does,..... but as a result of your weak scriptural understanding you have applied the Lord's speaking improperly.
See, in Matthew 10:22-23, Jesus was speaking to a specific matter, that of a believer being persecuted in this life.
Lets read it according to it entire thought...
Matthew 10:22-23,
"And you will be hated by all because of My name. But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved......
And when they persecute you..... in this city, flee into another. For truly I say to you, You shall by no means finish the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes....
And you will be hated by all because of My name.....
But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved."
As is clear revealed in these verses is that Jesus is speaking, not to the general matter of our eternal salvation, but to a specific matter of our enduring through the persecution of those who hate you.
This specific, clearly referenced type of suffering is not the only type of situation/environment that a believer must endure and overcome in the process of our salvation being worked out to its fullness, and therefore one cannot use the Lord's speaking to this specific matter to conclude the broader matter of a believers full salvation.
And again, we can see the same thing in the other scriptural cross-references to this speaking of our Lord in Matthew 24:9-14 and in Mark, and in the speaking of the apostles in other NT books (Hebrews & James).
In fact, in James we have a very clear view of what our Lord is speaking of and desires in our living so that He might gain overcoming believers as an expression on this earth.
James says, making particular reference to Job, and drawing a direct parallel to Job's patience in his use of the word translated as enduring.....
James  5 : 11, "Behold,.....
we (saved believer)..... call..... those who endured (specfic believers from among the greater body).... blessed. You have heard of the endurance of Job (patience), and you have seen his end from the Lord, that the Lord is very tenderhearted and compassionate."
The Greek word  in verb form here and in noun form in Rom. 5:3 and 2 Cor. 1:6  connotes patience toward things, such as the patience that Job had toward the things that afflicted him.
The matter of enduring/persevering is one related to the Lord's present need for an expression of Himself in believers on the earth at the present time, and not a matter of our eternal salvation, something that is guaranteed in Christ unto those who believe in what was accomplished on the cross and that He is risen.
Basically, you are once again in error in your scriptural interpretation OC, and thereore also in your conclusions.
Orthodox Christian said:
Salvation is not an it, it's a relationship. You cannot "have" salvation any more than you can "have" marriage.
Actually, salvation is both an "It" and a relationship, as salvation is simply the all inclusive Christ worked out in believing humanity.
Orthodox Christian said:
Ultimately, you have a notion of salvation that is based upon a work- believing in Christ, as in a one-time event. This is dumbed-down Pelagianism.
Twisting words again are you...... OC, if there is a worshipper of human works on these borads it is the follower of the apostate religion, such as yourself.
Scripture declares that our believing ability is simply Christ Himself rising up in us, and yes it is a work,.... the work of God.
And further, in one aspect of the matter of salvation it is a one-time event, but in another aspect it is a process.
A seed is planted, but in this seed is a nature that must be released and accomplish its natural purpose.
When a believer first believes a divine seed is planted in this person's being. As this person continues believing the divine life in this seed is released and works out its purpose.
God's work is first to bring a person to believe, and then to get this person to continue believeing. The short-term goal being His gaining of an expression of Himself in men even within an environment of fallen creation, and the overall goal being His gaining His expression for eternity future.
This is seen in the principle of the early/first fruit versus the later fruit.
Orthodox Christian said:
We are not saved by our faith in Christ- we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Well, as true as this may be, it is not the complete truth,..... because, as you mentioned above, we must consider what the relationship is regarding the "we" you mention above.
You do remember that "we" don't you? Do you see it, the "we" I mean?
This faith of Christ must have a way to first enter into and then operate in this "we" we refer to, and God will not overide man's will.
So, although you have not spoken a lie, you have also not spoken the complete truth.
But lets look at the scripture you presented below so that we can mine the full truth from it.....
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith
of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith
of Christ"
Although I don't believe that the translation you used is the best there is, I'll work with it since its what you presented. But understand that its somewhat short.
Faith of Jesus Christ, or, faith in Jesus Christ, refers to the faith of Jesus Christ in us, which has become the faith by which we believe in Him, as in v. 26; Gal. 2:16, 20; 3:22; Eph. 3:12; and Phil. 3:9.
Faith of/in Jesus Christ denotes an organic union with Him through believing. This is related to the believers' appreciation of the person of the Son of God as the most precious One. The believers are infused with the preciousness of Christ through the gospel preached to them. This Christ becomes in them the faith by which they believe and the capacity to believe through their appreciation of Him. This faith creates an organic union in which they and Christ are one.
Faith has an object, and it issues from its object. This object is Jesus, who is God incarnate. When man hears Him, knows Him, appreciates Him, and treasures Him, He causes faith to be generated in man, enabling man to believe in Him. Thus, He becomes the faith in man by which man believes in Him. Hence, this faith becomes the faith in Him, and it is also the faith that belongs to (of) Him.
In God's New Testament economy, God desires that man believe in Jesus, who is God incarnate. If man does not believe in Him, he commits the unique sin before God (John 16:9). However, if man believes in Him, he is righteous to the uttermost before God, and God reckons this faith as his righteousness. At the same time, this faith brings its object, that is, this One who is God incarnate, into those who believe in Him. He is God's righteousness, and God has given Him as righteousness to those who are indwelt by Him (Jer. 23:6). All this is out of, and depends on, the faith that is in Him and of Him (Heb. 12:2).
Paul's ministry is a wonderful gift to all believers.
Orthodox Christian said:
Learn from Paul's metaphor of marriage.
Well,..... then of course we have the verses that describe how God gained a perfect counterpart for Adam prior to their marriage.
Keep in mind, the marriage has not yet taken place.
In love,
cj
