The Reason for Endless Debates

[John the Baptist]

Re: Don't believe

No OBEDIENCE, NO WORKS OF LOVE, finds one in BONDAGE!!!---John

Never said a saved person should not have the above - he will if he is saved - but he will not do the above to earn salvation like you folks indicate.

_________
John here: Friend, I have heard this said about me over & over again on this forum from O.S.A.S. false teachers every since I have been a member. I had posted this same reply to several here of your 'yoked believing' only, friends. It goes something in bottom line like this:

"I demand that you put your above proof into plain sight, post your documentation that I have ever believed, or ever even hinted that I, or any one, can or could.. "earn salvation like you folk indicate". In other words, post up my post where you have ever read in the last 55 years of my life even, that I believe such deceit! See 2 Corinthians 4:2. These ones are not Born again, unless they are of the Hebrews 6:6 class of graduates?

This my friend, left as is, is an open documented lie that needs attention! O.S.A.S. huh? Sure you are. You do not even know any more what it means to be Born Again than did the John 3:1 Pharisee Nicodemus. Now check your next remark below about good works! :roll:
___________

You assume OSAS do no belive in doing good works - where did you get that from?

We believe in good works - we were created unto good works but works do no earn salvation or grace like you folks seem to teach.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

Now check your next remark below about good works! [/u]:roll:

You assume OSAS do no belive in doing good works - where did you get that from?

We believe in good works - we were created unto good works but works do no earn salvation or grace like you folks seem to teach.

I'm beginng to think you can't read or reason simple truths.

Well, then maybe it is me - I can't figure out where you are coming from :-?

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: Don't believe

Now check your next remark below about good works! [/u]:roll:

You assume OSAS do no belive in doing good works - where did you get that from?

We believe in good works - we were created unto good works but works do no earn salvation or grace like you folks seem to teach.

I'm beginng to think you can't read or reason simple truths.

Well, then maybe it is me - I can't figure out where you are coming from :-?

___________
WHATEVER??

 

[cj]

John here:
I wonder how someone who is supposed to belive O.S.A.S. can post this paragraph about another person, saying what he has said?[/b] :

No need to wonder John, its the same way that a believer, who has had his spirit fully regenerated at the moment of believing, and more, filled with the complete triune God, can end up not believing that he or she is forever saved.

Because someone falls short in an aspect of their walk with God, this does not mean that they have lost God.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

Many folks seem to have a hard time with simple truths from the scriptures:

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Dead folk cannot respond to or understand simple, spiritual truths - hence the reason for endless debates and disputings here and other forums.

As usual, you're right on, Av. Some people simply like to argue, period. They cannot leave a true statement alone because they like to hear themselves talk, no matter how much they contradict the bible. Virtually every single biblical truth has been argued with on this forum by people who call themselves Christians. These people also disagree with Christ when he says that one has to have the faith of a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. These are people whom Paul talks about that like to cause dissention. But he also says that that is how we know who is approved by God and who isn't. Those who contradict the bible are not approved by God and those who don't contradict the bible are. Of course, all false teachers will say that they just have a different "interpretation" but Paul knows otherwise because he says there will be false teachers and he tells us they wil, have different "interpretations" that contradict his. So this is why I don't post here much any more. False teachers can fool other false teachers but no true believers.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

5. God enables the man, justified by the faith of Christ and sanctified by the outworking of his faith coupled with humility to grow in holiness, and to see the Kingdom, and to enter it.
6. The man is transformed, day by day, into the image of Christ- or, should the man shrink back, God finds no pleasure in him.

Works - works and more works - sounds pious but it is nothing more than man justifying himself before God.

....should the man shrink back....
Interpretation:

Man is trusting himself to not shrink back - works - He is not resting on Christ alone. This man does not believe that Christ died for sins - he believes that Christ opened the door and now it is up to him to enter in by his own merits and works. Rome and religions like it never change.

Works...works...works = self-justification = lake of fire

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Don't believe

5. God enables the man, justified by the faith of Christ and sanctified by the outworking of his faith coupled with humility to grow in holiness, and to see the Kingdom, and to enter it.
6. The man is transformed, day by day, into the image of Christ- or, should the man shrink back, God finds no pleasure in him.

Works - works and more works - sounds pious but it is nothing more than man justifying himself before God.

....should the man shrink back....
Interpretation:

Man is trusting himself to not shrink back - works - He is not resting on Christt alone. This man does not believe that Christ died for sins - he believes that Christ opened the door and now it is up to him to enter in by his own merits and works. Rome and religions like it never change.

Works...works...works = self-justification = lake of fire

More poor interpretation. Let's read the scripture in context:

For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

In other words, persevere in and by your faith, or rather, the faith of the Son of God in you- and do not draw back/shrink back to perdition.
A literal rendering would be "who timidly retreat, resulting in their destruction."
No doubt, trusting in one's own works would comprise a type of retreat, but the clear context is those who give up under trial do so to their own destruction. This is those of the seed which is planted, but choked by the cares of the world (weeds/thistles/thorns).

Jesus' clear command to us is to exercise our faith and to extend trust unto the end. Paul does not in any sense contradict this, for he calls upon all to stay the course, finish the race, fight the good fight.

 

[cj]

Just a note for any reading,......

The truth concerning what looks like a terrible, sometimes vicious struggle between one like OC and myself, stems from the facts of the truth regarding the core of our living and being in Christ is what is being contended for.

At the very center of man's freedom is Christ, as man's justification before God. But even moreso, as the way man may enjoy this freedom, what Christ has accomplished must be received as having been accomplished in our having believed.

Complete salvation has two aspects, the reality of it and the expression of this reality.

Satan can do nothing about the Reality of our salvation, as it is finished. But Satan can hinder the expression of our salvation, and in doing this delay the Lord's return.

This is the most crucial matter being fought over in both the heavens and on the earth. Satan does not want the execution of his judgement to take place, and what he has done under the guise of christianity is wickedness to the utmost, as should be expected by one trying to do whatever is necessary in order to keep himself out of the eternal bonds of hell.

Know this, the apostate religious institutions are tools of Satan, with the specificpurpose of delaying the return of our Lord. And anything or anyone who would speak against these tools are confronted with the perverted mind of Satan, expressed in those that are bound by their love of the ways of these institutions.

But there is one way to see this,........ look for the carnal expression, look for the words that serve the flesh, as in this you will know the speaking of your enemy.

Satan turns men to themselves, but God turns men to His Son, Christ Jesus.


In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

Bowing out

I started this thread and I will bow out thank you.

You cannot flog a dead horse (Eph. 2:1).

I cannot open the eyes of those who are as blind as a bat coming in backwards (II Cor. 4:3) - only God can do this.

One more - the reason for endless debates:

1. Lost people cannot see spiritual truths.
2. Lost people have no final authority.

Pauls says to redeem the time - this has past that point.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Bowing out

I started this thread and I will bow out thank you.

You cannot flog a dead horse (Eph. 2:1)....
Pauls says to redeem the time - this has past that point.

Don't stray too far away from here AV. 8-) In the meantime, the thread is locked while I mop up the mess it has become.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Sanctification

James - There is a sanctifying at justification whereby God separates the saint to be is – this is positional:

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The result of true justification and is a practical outworking of the justification (sanctification) whereby we grow in grace as we take in the world of God and obey.

Excellent- you have stated that sanctification is accomplished through obedience. James also states that justification is accomplished in this manner, but let's just stay with sanctification. Now, justification AND sanctification are parts of what we know as salvation. In your view, justification and salvation are synonymous, but I have given plenty of scripture to counter this notion.

This practical sanctification is not a means to salvation like you are making it to be.

It is important that you not put words in my mouth. I did not say "as a means to." You continue to attempt to isolate faith from works, even in my writing. Faith with works is the key- one without the other is loss.

What you and others are doing are focusing on the practical sanctification and making it the basis for your ultimate salvation – this is works. This is you trying to add to the finished work of Jesus Christ.

I understand your confusion, but you are mischaracterizing what we are saying. I have successfully demonstrated that we participate in the finished work of Christ, elsewise it is of no effect to us. You have agreed that we must indeed participate in this salvation- it is of no effect to those who will not.
In your manner of speaking, are we both "adding to" the finished work, then?
Yes and no. Yes in the sense that it is something done after the time in history of Christ's crucifixion. No, in the sense that we are simply participating in His faith as we walk it out in this time frame.

Since you did no comment on Phil. 1:6 or Eph. 1:13

Huh? What was this, then?

Now to your scripture- a beautiful scripture, full of truth and grace

Phil 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Make no mistake- I have every confidence in the faithfulness of Christ. He will never sleep nor slumber, He will never shift nor turn, He will never fail. He will cause all things, no matter how difficult, to work for our good. He will pursue us until the end- and beyond.

He is the source of all grace, all good gfts, and every work of kindness and beauty in this age and the age to come belongs to Him.

But the ability to chose remains with us. We had free will before we made a decision to follow Him, and we have it after. Anyone who is serious about God will know in their heart that they have had numerous, significant turning points in their spiritual walk.

This is why the seeming contradiction- yes, God will bring to completion the work He started, but we must persevere to the end. He will be faithful- but will we?

Our walk in Christ is a relationship, not an event. Our relationship with Christ is founded in the New Birth, but is built upon the maturing of the believer IN Christ.
Here is a good article from an Evangelical source
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/002/9.70.html

then try this exercise – try reading through Ephesians chapter one – underline the past tense words and then you tell me how you, in your own human power, can undo what God did. Then show me where God undoes what he did in Ephesians.

This is a strawman argument. I have not argued that I can 'undo it.' Do you undo the work of the cross when you sin? Or as Paul asks, and answers

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

I make myself a transgressor when I rebuild the works of Law. This is a particular type of sin- Pelagianism- which is something that a person who has received grace can do.
We do not suggest that this which was destroyed- righteousness by works- be rebuilt. We ARE saying that it is possible for a man to "make himself a transgressor" by either of the twin errors: license, or legalism.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Sanctification

James - There is a sanctifying at justification whereby God separates the saint to be is – this is positional:

The result of true justification and is a practical outworking of the justification (sanctification) whereby we grow in grace as we take in the world of God and obey.

Excellent- you have stated that sanctification is accomplished through obedience.

No - you misread me again - I used the word obey because we are to be obey but.... that obedience comes after the positional justification in the verses I quoted - You see the word obey and automatically assumed I was relating it to positional justification.

James - you have tunnel vision - you relate verses and words that have nothing to do with justification. You see the word obey and assume that has a part in positional sanctification.

I believe in faith and works but not to justify - that comes from Christ alone.

You stick with James (written to Jews), Revelation (written to Jews in the tribulation), Gospels (written to Jews prior to Calvary) - I'll go to Paul first where justification after Calvary is expounded and then I'll have understanding regarding all those out-of context verses you are frantically grabbing to prove you can jsutify yourself.

You just want to stand before God and show him what a fine fella you are don't you? :

You just can't get it can you - somehow you just have to squeeze your part in there huh? :o

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Another reason for endless debates.. discussion forums.

 

[AVBunyan]

To the end

By the way - the phrase you keeping clinging to, "to the end" is found in Mark, Matthew, and Hebrews. This "end" is referrig to the end of a period of time - the tribulation - always has been a reference to this and always will be.

You made it reference to the end of one's "life" - wrong.

It is dealing with the future tribulation period and the saved is a reference to one's physical life not spiriutal life.

Context determines the meaning - missed it again. :roll:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Sanctification

James - There is a sanctifying at justification whereby God separates the saint to be is – this is positional:

The result of true justification and is a practical outworking of the justification (sanctification) whereby we grow in grace as we take in the world of God and obey.

Excellent- you have stated that sanctification is accomplished through obedience.

No - you misread me again - I used the word obey because we are to be obey but.... that obedience comes after the positional justification in the verses I quoted - You see the word obey and automatically assumed I was relating it to positional justification.

Actually, I related it to sanctification. YOU made it sanctification predicate on two factors
1. "take in the word of God"
2. "and obey."
Your words, AVB

James - you have tunnel vision - you relate verses and words that have nothing to do with justification. You see the word obey and assume that has a part in positional sanctification.

"Positional sanctification."
Wow, there's a bit 'o jargon you won't find in the scriptures.

What you will find is sanctification as both present and future tense- and not just as a noun (positional sanctification), but as an adjective and as a verb.

1 Thessalonian 5:23
Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until that day when our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.

I believe in faith and works but not to justify - that comes from Christ alone.

You stick with James (written to Jews),
Revelation (written to Jews in the tribulation), Gospels (written to Jews prior to Calvary) - I'll go to Paul first where justification after Calvary is expounded and then I'll have understanding regarding all those out-of context verses you are frantically grabbing to prove you can jsutify yourself.

I thought you said the bible was the word of God- but now you are telling me that James is not the word of God to you, nor for that matter, the gospels.
How can one dialogue with a man who says 'scripture only' then lifts up a copy of those scriptures with entire sections torn out?

You just want to stand before God and show him what a fine fella you are don't you? :

No, I'm actually inclined to approach the Creator and Ruler of the Universe with a great deal more reverent fear than that.

[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I do not justify myself before God, I pray "Lord have mercy on James, the sinner."

It seems that it is you who is inclined to justify yourself, based upon your 'faith.'
Yet it is the faith of Christ which saves- not your faith.

I want to stand before Him and have Him say "well done, good and faithful srvant."
That ain't "fine fella."
None is good, except God.

Perhaps you're just horsing around here. I take this matter seriously.

You just can't get it can you - somehow you just have to squeeze your part in there huh? :o

Whatever are you referring to? Is this some double entendre'?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: To the end

By the way - the phrase you keeping clinging to, "to the end" is found in Mark, Matthew, and Hebrews. This "end" is referrig to the end of a period of time - the tribulation - always has been a reference to this and always will be.

You made it reference to the end of one's "life" - wrong.

It is dealing with the future tribulation period and the saved is a reference to one's physical life not spiriutal life.

Context determines the meaning - missed it again. :roll:

Yes, you did miss it- but not by much:
The end of one's life is the end of their tribulation.

The instructions to the churches in Asia MInor- which commanded perseverence to the end- were not referring to the end of tribulation, since those to whom it was written have died, and the Great Tribulation has not come to an end.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: To the end

The instructions to the churches in Asia MInor- which commanded perseverence to the end- were not referring to the end of tribulation, since those to whom it was written have died, and the Great Tribulation has not come to an end.

Really? - Man I didn't know that :o :roll:

Honestly - I can't go on - it is time for me to sign off here - there is no way in the world I can seek to explain this to you.

You know what - I could explain this in detail to you. But you know what? No way am I going to.

You, at this point in time, are just not capable of understanding right division (II Tim 2:15).

If you are serious about understanding this sciptural method of study (and I believe you are not) then search my posts (they go back to 2003) and my position is quite clear.

At any rate - carry on - see you at the great white throne!

By the way - I have a thread on this sugject to - search it out - you may have to prepare yourself.

I'll still be in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) watching from above. 8-)

 

[farley]

AV,

I believe that I'm going to have to agree with you about the writings of Paul teaching the truth about OSAS! However, the truth appears to the exact opposite to the conclusion which you made!!!

Re-reading some of the earlier posts in this thread, I found your comment supporting OSAS with a reference from Paul, see below...

The reason there is much debate over OSAS is because, again, the average saint does not have a simple and clear understanding of the gospel - It all starts here. If a person firmly maintains he can lose his salvation and pushes this truth I believe he is lost for he has missed the gospel of Paul which is found in I Cor. 15:1-5.

1 Corinthians 15:1-5 KJV-1611
(1) Moreouer brethren, I declare vnto you the Gospel which I preached vnto you, which also you haue receiued, and wherein yee stand.
(2) By which also yee are saued, if yee keepe in memorie what I preached vnto you, vnlesse yee haue beleeued in vaine.
(3) For I deliuered vnto you first of all, that which I also receiued, how that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures:
(4) And that he was buried, and that he rose againe the third day according to the Scriptures.
(5) And that he was seene of Cephas, then of the twelue.

First off, I don't agree with your interpretation of this passage!

In the second verse Paul is telling us that our obedience to the Gospel...saves us, IF we hold fast to the word he preached to us, unless we believed vain.

How much plainer can it be!!! This passage doesn't endorse OSAS, it condemns it!!!

In addition, Paul further reinforces the condemnation of OSAS in Titus 1:1-2...

Titus 1:1-2 KJV-1611
(1) Paul a seruant of God, and an Apostle of Iesus Christ, according to the Faith of Gods Elect, and the acknowledging of the trueth which is after godlinesse,
(2) In hope of eternall life, which God that cannot lie, promised before the world began:

Here we find Paul telling us that he is a servant of God, IN HOPE of eternal life.

So, it seems that here we have proof that even the apostles themselves knew that even they weren't guaranteed salvation.

Salvation is something that we all have to strive for, read work, daily!

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

1. In the second verse Paul is telling us that our obedience to the Gospel...saves us, IF we hold fast to the word he preached to us, unless we believed vain.

2. How much plainer can it be!!! This passage doesn't endorse OSAS, it condemns it!!!

3. Salvation is something that we all have to strive for, read work, daily!

1. One can believe in vain which means he never believed at all - look up the English definition of vain. How much plainer can it be???!!!

2. For those who are redeemed with their eyes open it is very plain - to those who cannot see the gospel it is because they are lost according to II Cor. 4:3.

3. Works, works and more works = a lake of fire. Where is Christ your gospel?

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Lost - Lost - Lost are those who seek to establish their own righteousness and seek to have a part in their salvation.

You have not a clue as to what took place at Calvary - not a clue! :o

 

[John the Baptist]

I suspect that the conversation to Cain by God in Genesis 4:7 sounded like what I hear here? (God's Word is just as clear!) Seem's that Cain had been faithful up until this one 'problem'? And sure it was a faith tested by works of Obedience, or the opposite of! God asked: "If you obey, will you not be accepted?" Well, what is the answer to that??? Of course Cain would have been accepted!!

Now: What would have saved Cain, the Lamb offering by Faith, or the WORK of Obedience! Or does James 2:14-26 have it correct, that it takes both, Faith and Works of obedience? What is New God asks??? Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15.

Also, we can see that there was another that was allowed in the hearing of the message of warning! Cain, when he made this mature rejection to Obey God, it was then that he found the other party attractive and he became Cain's DESIRE! See Genesis 6:3 & James 1:15 + 1 John 5:16-17's sin unto death.

I suspect that this is where freedom of choice has led a lot of folk. Christ had just made it very simple, "If ye love me keep My Commandments." Surely Cain took his 'new' faith with him. One of no Covenant Law of Obedience.

Yet, this is just one of the many flaws of this fold.

---John