The Reason for Endless Debates

[Gary]

:-D Debate more Debate and Argue is that why over 30000 protestant denomination exist and each one of them claim to be the true church founded by Christ?????

There is only one church that has existed for 2000 yrs.......the Holy Catholic Church.Guess which one was founded by Christ??

Oh dear... you also fell for the Roman Catholic lie?

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a86.htm

 

[von]

cj- No, those of us who don't believe OSAS do not serve the Lord out of fear. We serve the Lord and observe His commandments because of what He did for us on the cross. Unlike OSAS, who think that they can do whatever they want and get to Heaven.
By the way God does not drive people to suicide to bring them back out. That is the craziest thing that I ever heard in my life.


fcs25- you are right about all of the denominations. Even the same denominations can't agree amongst themselves but if you think that the one true church is the Catholic church you are really decieved. The one thing that we of the protestant faith do have in common is the same Lord. Jesus did not create the Catholic church. Catholics teach alot of good but they certainly don't live the life.

 

[AVBunyan]

Don't believe

cj- No, those of us who don't believe OSAS do not serve the Lord out of fear.

One more time - those of you who do not believe OSAS do not believe that Christ died for your sins.

You do not believe Christ was suffcient for all your sins.

You can dance all you want but the truth of the matter is you cannot see the grace of God and you do not understand what took place at Calvary.

If you truly believed that Christ died for your sins then you would believe "OSAS".

The issue here is not OSAS but justification - how is the sinner justified before God.

Many of you folks do not know how the sinner is jutified before God - this is very obvious based upon these discussions.

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

:bday: F-A-I-T-H :bday: :o

 

[John the Baptist]

A.V.B. says:
You are basing you salvation on holding out unto the end thus what you are saying is you are trusting you and not Christ alone. You are not resting upon what Christ did at Calvary but what Free might do or might not do. The issue is not what one does or doesn’t do but what is one resting their faith on. You are resting on you – and yet you and others cannot and will not see that

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

_______
John here:
I wonder how someone who is supposed to belive O.S.A.S. can post this paragraph about another person, saying what he has said? :

 

[AVBunyan]

????????

I wonder how someone who is supposed to belive O.S.A.S. can post this paragraph about another person, saying what he has said?[/b] :

????? :o :o :o ?????

I just read what they say and compare it with scripture.

 

[AVBunyan]

Duplicate

Duplicate again - sorry

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Don't believe

cj- No, those of us who don't believe OSAS do not serve the Lord out of fear.

One more time - those of you who do not believe OSAS do not believe that Christ died for your sins.

You do not believe Christ was suffcient for all your sins.

You can dance all you want but the truth of the matter is you cannot see the grace of God and you do not understand what took place at Calvary.

If you truly believed that Christ died for your sins then you would believe "OSAS".

The issue here is not OSAS but justification - how is the sinner justified before God.

Many of you folks do not know how the sinner is jutified before God - this is very obvious based upon these discussions.

There is a logical and scriptural fallacy afoot here. Firstly, in order to prop up this OSAS doctrine, one must ignore all relevant scripture against. One must also ignore reason to do so.

But I'm getting ahead of myself...

1. Man is created
2. Man falls
3. Man needs Savior, cannot save self
4. Man must respond to Savior

Already, Christ's death is "not sufficient," for there is need for response on the part of man

5. Man responds

Should a man not believe, Christ's death is of no avail to that man- let alone the power of Christ's resurrection. Therefore, it is necessary for man to add to Christ's sacrifice one thing: faith

6. Man is buried with Christ, or crucified

Man, extending faith, is buried with Christ, or as Paul said "crucified with Christ."

7. Man takes up cross

Jesus said that anyone who would come after Him must take up their cross and follow Him. Paul said that he died daily. This is in addition, or perhaps better stated, emulation of Christ.

8. Man perseveres to the end

"He who perseveres to the end will be saved."
sincerely,
Jesus Christ
Lord of All Creation

The last five points are man's response to Christ. Each is just as vital to the first four. Each is fully grounded in scripture.

Happy to continue to deliver the full gospel in an ordinary sized font
by the grace of God
James

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

1. There is a logical and scriptural fallacy afoot here.

2. Firstly, in order to prop up this OSAS doctrine, one must ignore all relevant scripture against.

3. The last five points are man's response to Christ. Each is just as vital to the first four. Each is fully grounded in scripture.

4. Happy to continue to deliver the full gospel in an ordinary sized font

1. And you have yet to shown this "fallacy" from scripture.

2. In order for one to not believe in OSAS one has to trample upon the doctrine of justification by grace, which it appears, you cannot define from scripture. All those "revelant" passages of scripture you pull out of your hat that you use to destroy the doctrine of justificaiton by faith have nothing to do with body of Christ truth. You live in OT doctrines meant for Israel and tribulation doctrines meant for Israel during the tribulation. And guess what, you have not a clue what I am talking about :o

3. Herein lies your problem - I've said this a million time sand you still can't see it - you are relying on your response for your justification - you cannot separate positional from practical - I wrote a whole post on it and it went right over your head. :o

4. You have yet to define and expound the full gospel. Let's try one simple question: What is the "gospel" as defined by scripture?

Again - with feeling -Based upon yourown words:

You are trusting you for your salvation and you can't see it.

 

[John the Baptist]

Orthodox Christian wrote:

1. There is a logical and scriptural fallacy afoot here.

2. Firstly, in order to prop up this OSAS doctrine, one must ignore all relevant scripture against.

___________

Hi friend, No.2?

Whats the reason for this O.S.A.S stuff that he is constantly posting up? It surely has another number of reasoning! He is saying that he is once saved always saved by just belief, but you are not, huh? :wink:

Yet, the devils doctrine saves all & everyone. (even the worst offenders that retreat when the chips are down, really down, that is)
The doctrine is not much different than all of Revelation 17:1-5 ones. (from mom to daughters)

Noticed: Most believe, huh?? All then are in the same satanic bed OSAS together with this kind of James 2/faithlessness nothingness! But this O.S.A.S. guy want all to just believe that his belief does the trick??
Whatever??

Look at this old new/clip:

Los Angeles Times, 2/5/93

Pope John Paul 11 sought common ground with believers in voodoo Thursday, suggesting they would not betray their traditional faith by converting to Christianity."---John

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Don't believe

First, let us note that you added point numbers to my introduction, and skipped the numbered points that I made. Now why, I wonder, would you do that?

1. There is a logical and scriptural fallacy afoot here.

1. And you have yet to shown this "fallacy" from scripture.

Nonsense: I did so in points 1-8, the ones you skipped over:
1. Man is created
2. Man falls
3. Man needs Savior, cannot save self
4. Man must respond to Savior
5. Man responds
6. Man is buried with Christ, or crucified
7. Man takes up cross
8. Man perseveres to the end

So your OSAS doctrine does not require points 6-8.

Argue against any of the 8- pick your poison. Don't just bluster and obfuscate- dig into scripture.

2. Firstly, in order to prop up this OSAS doctrine, one must ignore all relevant scripture against.

2. In order for one to not believe in OSAS one has to trample upon the doctrine of justification by grace, which it appears, you cannot define from scripture. All those "revelant" passages of scripture you pull out of your hat that you use to destroy the doctrine of justificaiton by faith have nothing to do with body of Christ truth. You live in OT doctrines meant for Israel and tribulation doctrines meant for Israel during the tribulation. And guess what, you have not a clue what I am talking about :o

It's likely no one has a clue what you're talking about, because you're not doing a good job explaining your doctrinal perspective. Instead, you are blustering and posturing.

Ordinarily it is called Justification by Faith, but you use the term Justification by Grace. You have not explained why, but I will agree we are justified by grace. Proof? Read on.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I have many times, in Evangelical circles, heard the term 'saved by faith' as if it was an individual's faith in Christ that saves them. But that is NOT what the scripture says.
No!
We are "saved by the faith of Jesus Christ...who loved me, and gave Himself for me." "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. "

Yes, before my faith came into action, His faith saved me.

That is a doctrine of grace, not reliant on even my 'work' of faith.

And yet, not all are ultimately saved. Why not?
According to you, because they don't believe in the OSAS doctrine. According to scripture, it is because they have not believed- or rather, persevered in believing

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

4. You have yet to define and expound the full gospel. Let's try one simple question: What is the "gospel" as defined by scripture?

Here it is in a nutshell:
Christ died
Christ has Risen
Christ will come again

Or as He put it

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Until you teach the whole gospel, you preach a message of license and darkness- whether that is your intent or not.

Recap:
A man is not justified by works, nor his faith, but by the faith of the The Son of God. A man is transformed into the image of the Son by walking in grace and obedience.

We are being saved.

Again - with feeling -Based upon yourown words:

You are trusting you for your salvation and you can't see it.

Rather, I am trusting Him in me. "He who is in you is mightier than he who is in the world."

It is you who is trusting in your shallow bible understanding to save you.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay, I like that! Now, I know that you are in deep trouble. :fadein:
---John

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

1. According to you, because they don't believe in the OSAS doctrine.

2. It is you who is trusting in your shallow bible understanding to save you.

1. Never said that - what I do believe is this: A sinner is not saved by believeing a doctrine even OSAS but...but...if he is truly regenerated he will most likey believe OSAS.

2. If you can't see what I'm counting on to get me to heaven after all my posts then you are as blind as a bat coming in backwards.

Well, now that I think of it, I can see why you can't see what I'm counting on after all.

I can do more - feel foolish for staying this long.

I think I've had enough - my stomach cannot take anymore.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Don't believe

1. According to you, because they don't believe in the OSAS doctrine.

2. It is you who is trusting in your shallow bible understanding to save you.

1. Never said that

Quote from AVBUNYAN, Sept 22
"Failure to believe the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (OSAS) is a failure to understand justification by faith which stems from a failure to understand what really took place at Calvary – this equates to a sure path to a lake of fire."
Nice to see you back away from this position.
"if he is truly regenerated he will most likey believe OSAS."

2. If you can't see what I'm counting on to get me to heaven after all my posts then you are as blind as a bat coming in backwards.

As one can see above, it was pretty clear in your ealier posting that you were equating OSAS doctrine with salvation. Now it seems that you have backed away from OSAS a litmus test of salvation, it is not as clear who or what you are counting on- that is your job to explain, not mine or ours to guess.

Well, now that I think of it, I can see why you can't see what I'm counting on after all.

I can do more - feel foolish for staying this long.

I think I've had enough - my stomach cannot take anymore.

I'm sorry you have such a delicate constitution that defending your own doctrine makes you ill.

I guess then that the chances of you answering this challenge are about nil, now.

• 1. Man is created
  2. Man falls
  3. Man needs Savior, cannot save self
  4. Man must respond to Savior
  5. Man responds
  6. Man is buried with Christ, or crucified
  7. Man takes up cross
  8. Man perseveres to the end

Argue against any of the 8- pick your poison. Don't just bluster and obfuscate- dig into scripture.

Best wishes and Milk of Magnesia for that sore tummy.

James

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

1. 8. Man perseveres to the end

2. Don't just bluster and obfuscate- dig into scripture.

1. This is where I feel you missed the boat - you were fiine until you get here and say man has to persevere - if you say man perseveres to the end then man is trusting man not Christ - this is contrary to:

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: and

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

2. I think I've given enough scripture to support justification by faith alone.

By the way - my little tummy feels much better now - I gave it a little AV1611 food - thank you so much for your concern - 8-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Don't believe

1. 8. Man perseveres to the end

2. Don't just bluster and obfuscate- dig into scripture.

1. This is where I feel you missed the boat - you were fiine until you get here and say man has to persevere - if you say man perseveres to the end then man is trusting man not Christ - this is contrary to:

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: and

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

2. I think I've given enough scripture to support justification by faith alone.

By the way - my little tummy feels much better now - I gave it a little AV1611 food - thank you so much for your concern - 8-)

Wonderful- back to the scripture. Now we're getting somewhere. So you acknowledge all of my first 7 points- or rather, the first seven points which the scriptures teach. Good, we'll come back to them in due course.



1.Last things first- justification by faith alone: one question: whose faith- Christ's, or yours??

2.Persevere to the end:
I'll give my scriptural support before I answer yours

Matthew 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:10-11
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Rev 2:25-26
But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Those are just a few of the direct quotes from Jesus Christ, pre and post Crucifixion. If anything, His message is tougher after the Crucifixion. Revelation 2 and 3 say, in essence "I know you have it hard, but buck up baby, and persevere."
Behold the kindness and severity of the Lord.

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Oops, there's another

Romans 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

and another.

Now to your scripture- a beautiful scripture, full of truth and grace

Phil 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Make no mistake- I have every confidence in the faithfulness of Christ. He will never sleep nor slumber, He will never shift nor turn, He will never fail. He will cause all things, no matter how difficult, to work for our good. He will pursue us until the end- and beyond.

He is the source of all grace, all good gfts, and every work of kindness and beauty in this age and the age to come belongs to Him.

But the ability to chose remains with us. We had free will before we made a decision to follow Him, and we have it after. Anyone who is serious about God will know in their heart that they have had numerous, significant turning points in their spiritual walk.

This is why the seeming contradiction- yes, God will bring to completion the work He started, but we must persevere to the end. He will be faithful- but will we?

Our walk in Christ is a relationship, not an event. Our relationship with Christ is founded in the New Birth, but is built upon the maturing of the believer IN Christ.
Here is a good article from an Evangelical source
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/002/9.70.html

In conclusion, while it is true that man cannot add to his justification by works of Law, it is also true that man who would be saved must die daily, take up his cross daily, and continue to respond to his Savior to the End. These works are not to the man's justification, but to his sanctification, and ultimately his salvation and the salvation of the world (or at least those in the world who would be saved should they see a living letter bearing the gospel).

by the grace of God
James

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

...it is also true that man who would be saved must die daily, take up his cross daily, and continue to respond to his Savior to the End. These works are not to the man's justification, but to his sanctification, and ultimately his salvation and the salvation .....James

Works - Works - Works - plain an simple

 

[AVBunyan]

Sanctification

James - There is a sanctifying at justification whereby God separates the saint to be is – this is positional:

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The result of true justification and is a practical outworking of the justification (sanctification) whereby we grow in grace as we take in the world of God and obey. This practical sanctification is not a means to salvation like you are making it to be.

What you and others are doing are focusing on the practical sanctification and making it the basis for your ultimate salvation – this is works. This is you trying to add to the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Since you did no comment on Phil. 1:6 or Eph. 1:13 then try this exercise – try reading through Ephesians chapter one – underline the past tense words and then you tell me how you, in your own human power, can undo what God did. Then show me where God undoes what he did in Ephesians.

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: Don't believe

...it is also true that man who would be saved must die daily, take up his cross daily, and continue to respond to his Savior to the End. These works are not to the man's justification, but to his sanctification, and ultimately his salvation and the salvation .....James

Works - Works - Works - plain an simple

_______
It appears that not only does one re/write scripture, as in the last few verses of warning in the MASTER'S WORD of Revelation, but now we even see James 2 given the heave ho . And all in the name of O.S.A.S. huh? Wow!! And you also must at least read Acts 5:32 at times?? You best understand that you are not O.S.A.S. at least. No OBEDIENCE, NO WORKS OF LOVE, finds one in BONDAGE!!!

---John

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Don't believe

No OBEDIENCE, NO WORKS OF LOVE, finds one in BONDAGE!!!---John

Never said a saved person should not have the above - he will if he is saved - but he will not do the above to earn salvation like you folks indicate.

You assume OSAS do not belive in doing good works - where did you get that from?

We believe in good works - we were created unto good works but works do not earn salvation or grace like you folks seem to teach.