The Reason for Endless Debates

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Gospel

I certainly don't believe that one can lose their salvation overnight, but...

Free - it appears you do no believe that Christ died for your sins - you do not hold fast the word - i.e. you do not believe what Paul said.

This is what is known as a non sequitur. Believing that Jesus died for sin, including my sins, does not naturally and sequentially result in me believing that I am unable to walk away from a grace freely given.

On the contrary, ample scripture demonstrates and declares otherwise. Even reason itself dictates that a choice to believe can be followed by a choice to disbelieve. It happens all the time in our lives.

I believe what Paul said;

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

moreover, I believe what the whole counsel of scripture says.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

There is a great deal more

Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Looks like names can be 'blotted out.'

Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

Indeed.


And yet you, Bunyan, have the nerve to question the salvation of those who question your doctrine.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment

Beware.

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


There is much more scripture that can be brought to defend against the OSAS heresy.

BTW: This post is for the benefit of those who are on the fence. I don't expect any response from Bunyan.

 

[cj]

Christ's death is most certainly sufficient, but we are repeatedly warned to stand:

In this sufficiency.

But why?

See, the perfect definition of the word suffucient is that which needs nothing more.

Therefore, if you believe Christ is sufficient, then,.... our stand should be in this reality of the Reality.

We should absolutely believe that nothing can seperate us from the love of He who died so that He might redeem us for His eternal possession.

When you add the "but" you in fact corrupt the "sufficiency" you spoke of.

Which is it then, either you believe He is sufficient, punto finale, or you don't. For there is no in-between.

The following verses that you presented are all valid to the working out of our full salvation, but they are specific to a particular present need of God on the earth,...... His expression in an environment of fallen creation, a light in darkness, a lamp on a hill.

Lets go back to the "But why?" I asked at the beginning...... we'll use the verses you presented.

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures....

Paul is very specific in his speaking above, please note the phrase "the gospel I preached" as the gospel Paul preached is far deeper and thus differs in that in brings men into a deeper understanding of God, than was previously possible than that presented in the Gospels.

Paul's gospel he calls in Romans 1:1, "Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, a called apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,..."

The gospel of God, as the subject of this book (Romans), concerns Christ as the Spirit living within the believers after His resurrection. This is higher and more subjective than what was presented in the Gospels, which concern Christ only in the flesh as He lived among His disciples after His incarnation but before His death and resurrection. This book, however, reveals that Christ has resurrected and has become the life-giving Spirit (8:9-10). He is no longer merely the Christ outside the believers, but He is now the Christ within them. Hence, the gospel in this book is the gospel of the One who is now indwelling His believers as their subjective Savior.

This is what Paul is speaking to in the verses above, Christ in us as our subjective Savior.

Paul says in Romans  8:9-10, "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness."

This is all the proof we need, as it tells us that though in our outward living we might express death, inwardly, in our regenerated spirit, we have life. And by life Paul means eternal life. And the regeneration of our spirit is instantaneous upon our believing.

This chapter (8) unveils to us how the Triune God  the Father (v. 15), the Son (vv. 3, 29, 32), and the Spirit (vv. 9, 11, 13-14, 16, 23, 26)  dispenses Himself as life (vv. 2, 6, 10, 11) into us, the tripartite men  spirit, soul, and body  to make us His sons (vv. 14-15, 19, 23, 29, 17) for the constituting of the Body of Christ (12:4-5).

1 Corinthians  6:11, "And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Paul is speaking to yet to be perfected saints, but he uses past tense.

Titus  3:5-7, "Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, in order that having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Again, Paul speaks in past tense.

But something more is seen in Titus....... "in order that"....... "having been justified"..... "we might become"...... "heirs".......


What is constantly confused in christianity's teachings is the matter of what has happened to us as we believe, and why it has happened to us.

what has happened to us is that we have been redeemed and given divine life. Why this has happened is that God desires to gain His expression in and out of men.

To accomplish this God first secures His possession, and then He accomplishes His purpose for this possession.

What has become confused in the teachings of chrstianity is that which is necessary for our eternal salvation and that which is necessary for God to gain His expression in men..... while they live out their life on earth in the environment of the fallen creation.

Every person who believes will be saved, but only a few will express this in its perfection in their present life on earth.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Re: Gospel

On the contrary, ample scripture demonstrates and declares otherwise. Even reason itself dictates that a choice to believe can be followed by a choice to disbelieve. It happens all the time in our lives.

No, you are contradicting yourself OC.

Our believing is in/of Christ, and He does not chnage His mind about a person's salvation.

I believe what Paul said;

Actually, you believe erroneous interpretation of what paul said.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

Paul is speaking to the goal of gaining a reward, and not gaining eternal life.

moreover, I believe what the whole counsel of scripture says.

Once again though, according to poor teaching.

But lets see....

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Again, this is regarding the specific matter of persecution and the overcoming of this persecution, which is unto a reward and no way hinders one's eternal salvation.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Note that the Lord is speaking to the churches, which He knows is not a building or any other man-made concoction, but is the believing body on the earth,...... and that out of this believing body there will arise certain believers who will overcome the environment of the world even as they live.

Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Again... note that the Lord is speaking to the churches, which He knows is not a building or any other man-made concoction, but is the believing body on the earth,...... and that out of this believing body there will arise certain believers who will overcome the environment of the world even as they live.

Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Again... note that the Lord is speaking to the churches, which He knows is not a building or any other man-made concoction, but is the believing body on the earth,...... and that out of this believing body there will arise certain believers who will overcome the environment of the world even as they live.

Looks like names can be 'blotted out.'

Which of course means that they were written in the book to begin with and are thus covered by this following speaking of Jesus...

"And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

So what gives?

The names are blotted out for a thousand years as they suffer further discipline unto perfection for the new creation.

Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

Indeed.

Indeed,..... yet Moses sinned against God, as did David and a host of others.

Thank God for His great mercy and grace that has delivered us from our offences, eternally.

And yet you, Bunyan, have the nerve to question the salvation of those who question your doctrine.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment

Beware.

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


There is much more scripture that can be brought to defend against the OSAS heresy.

BTW: This post is for the benefit of those who are on the fence. I don't expect any response from Bunyan.

Your bringing of scripture is in the vain emptyness of the false doctrine you hold to.

Therefore it has no use other than as an example of what a believer should utterly reject.

You'd do well be heed your own advice of "beware".


In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

Stick with Paul

Why don't you folks who are against justification by faith alone stick with passages that deal with the body of Christ. You are always going to passgages prior to Calvary (which again tells me you still do not understand what took place at Calvary) or you go to tribulation passages which have nothing to do with the body of Christ.

You folks are always taking passages that deal with Israel - try sticking with Paul.

Study Paul first and get it settled.

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Rather than respond with scripture, CJ, you simply put your own spin- or rather, unsubstantiated spin- on the scriptures I posted.

For example:

Which of course means that they were written in the book to begin with and are thus covered by this following speaking of Jesus...

"And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

So what gives?

The names are blotted out for a thousand years as they suffer further discipline unto perfection for the new creation.

This is a prime example of unsubstantiated doctrine, pure speculation and adding to the scripture, when scripture speaks plainly on the matter.

By way of another example

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Again, this is regarding the specific matter of persecution and the overcoming of this persecution, which is unto a reward and no way hinders one's eternal salvation.

"And in no way hinders one's eternal salvation." Once you sign up, you get a "get out of hell free card." Away with such license

Jude 1:3-5 NLT
Dearly loved friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the truth of the Good News. God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people.
I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. I must remind you--and you know it well--that even though the Lord rescued the whole nation of Israel from Egypt, he later destroyed every one of those who did not remain faithful.


The TRUTH is given once for all, His sacrifice once for all, and the salvation must be contended for.

Away with such lawless instruction.

 

[farley]

AV,

<<<<Many of the verses you used are not dealing with justification and your other suspect passages have nothing to do with the body of Christ today.
>
Now - do you believe the gospel that Christ died for your sins or not?>>>>

Of course Christ died for ALL the sins of mankind...once they are properly confessed and repented of!!!

Philippians 2:12 KJV-1611
(12) Wherefore, my beloued, as yee haue alwayes obeyed, not as in my presence onely, but now much more in my absence; worke out your owne saluation with feare, and trembling.

And...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV-1611
(16) All Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse,
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished vnto all good workes.

...all scripture must be in harmony, right?...or else it is being misinterpreted and/or used out of context!

Just as an aside, heres a comparison of an earlier reference...

2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV-1769 (also known as the Authorized Version)
(3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV-1611
(3) But I feare lest by any meanes, as the Serpent beguiled Eue through his subtilty, so your mindes should bee corrupted from the simplicitie that is in Christ.

YBIC,

farley

 

[cj]

Rather than respond with scripture, CJ, you simply put your own spin- or rather, unsubstantiated spin- on the scriptures I posted.

Oh, I can most certainly respond with scripture OC, and if need be, will.

But my intention is not to enter into a debate with a blind man about the reality of light; even though this blind man may have a certain understanding of an aspect of this light by way of the heat it produces on his skin.

Yet, you could sit in a fire and believe you are in the light.

I only want to help you see OC, that's all.

This is a prime example of unsubstantiated doctrine, pure speculation and adding to the scripture, when scripture speaks plainly on the matter.

No, its not.

Your shortfall is found in your lack of understanding regarding all scripture.

"And in no way hinders one's eternal salvation." Once you sign up, you get a "get out of hell free card." Away with such license

OC, the scriptures say we are chosen, not we sign up.

Ignorance is blinding you.

Jude 1:3-5 NLT
Dearly loved friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the truth of the Good News. God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people.
I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. I must remind you--and you know it well--that even though the Lord rescued the whole nation of Israel from Egypt, he later destroyed every one of those who did not remain faithful.

The immoral life is that which you live as a thief and deceiver, in the manner of Judas the kisser who's inward motive did not match his outward living.

You are a robber who comes to steal and destroy, who comes to persecute the saints with the wicked false doctrines of man's religiousity.

And you are a deceiver because of the counterfeit head to which you hold.

The evil of the heretical apostates as spoken of in Jude was their perverting of the grace of God into wantonness, into the abusing of freedom (cf. Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet. 2:16), and their denying of the headship and lordship of the Lord. These two go together. Turning the grace of God into an abuse of freedom for the purpose of wantonness requires denying the Lord's rule and authority.

You and others like you, perpetuate the perverting of the grace of God with the putrid corruption of the flesh in its uttermost expression of the fallen tripartite man, found in its lustful craving to attempt to keep the law.

Religionists, setting up synagogues of Satan in an effort to validate the flesh.

This is the wantonness spoken of in Jude, the abusing of our freedom in Christ; the returning to the vomit like a dog, the mud like swine.

You who would seek to sit in judgement of others believing in the way of the Pharisees that "immoral" living must mean a certain thing an not another.

Yet God has declared that immoral is simply a living in and out of dead flesh.

And none live in this immoral way moreso than those who bow before the way of Baal, and kiss his ring, in the way of those who worship the apostate institutions.

The TRUTH is given once for all, His sacrifice once for all, and the salvation must be contended for.

But first, he who would contend for truth must come to know utter defeat, and then resurrection out of this defeat. For truth is contended for out of reality and not vanity, and reality is gained in obedience which is gained through suffering.

And you know little of the truth OC.

Away with such lawless instruction.

Says you who may be among those who cry at the sight of Babylon burning.

Vanity OC, for you seem unable to say "Away" to your own lawlessness, much less that of others.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Rather than respond with scripture, CJ, you simply put your own spin- or rather, unsubstantiated spin- on the scriptures I posted.

Oh, I can most certainly respond with scripture OC, and if need be, will.

But my intention is not to enter into a debate with a blind man about the reality of light; even though this blind man may have a certain understanding of an aspect of this light by way of the heat it produces on his skin.

Yet, you could sit in a fire and believe you are in the light.

I only want to help you see OC, that's all.

[quote="Orthodox Christian":09fa0]This is a prime example of unsubstantiated doctrine, pure speculation and adding to the scripture, when scripture speaks plainly on the matter.

No, its not.

Your shortfall is found in your lack of understanding regarding all scripture.

"And in no way hinders one's eternal salvation." Once you sign up, you get a "get out of hell free card." Away with such license

OC, the scriptures say we are chosen, not we sign up.

Ignorance is blinding you.

Jude 1:3-5 NLT
Dearly loved friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the truth of the Good News. God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people.
I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. I must remind you--and you know it well--that even though the Lord rescued the whole nation of Israel from Egypt, he later destroyed every one of those who did not remain faithful.

The immoral life is that which you live as a thief and deceiver, in the manner of Judas the kisser who's inward motive did not match his outward living.

You are a robber who comes to steal and destroy, who comes to persecute the saints with the wicked false doctrines of man's religiousity.

And you are a deceiver because of the counterfeit head to which you hold.

The evil of the heretical apostates as spoken of in Jude was their perverting of the grace of God into wantonness, into the abusing of freedom (cf. Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet. 2:16), and their denying of the headship and lordship of the Lord. These two go together. Turning the grace of God into an abuse of freedom for the purpose of wantonness requires denying the Lord's rule and authority.

You and others like you, perpetuate the perverting of the grace of God with the putrid corruption of the flesh in its uttermost expression of the fallen tripartite man, found in its lustful craving to attempt to keep the law.

Religionists, setting up synagogues of Satan in an effort to validate the flesh.

This is the wantonness spoken of in Jude, the abusing of our freedom in Christ; the returning to the vomit like a dog, the mud like swine.

You who would seek to sit in judgement of others believing in the way of the Pharisees that "immoral" living must mean a certain thing an not another.

Yet God has declared that immoral is simply a living in and out of dead flesh.

And none live in this immoral way moreso than those who bow before the way of Baal, and kiss his ring, in the way of those who worship the apostate institutions.

The TRUTH is given once for all, His sacrifice once for all, and the salvation must be contended for.

But first, he who would contend for truth must come to know utter defeat, and then resurrection out of this defeat. For truth is contended for out of reality and not vanity, and reality is gained in obedience which is gained through suffering.

And you know little of the truth OC.

Away with such lawless instruction.

Says you who may be among those who cry at the sight of Babylon burning.

Vanity OC, for you seem unable to say "Away" to your own lawlessness, much less that of others.


In love,
cj[/quote:09fa0]
More inflammatory remarks with no scriptural validation.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Stick with Paul

Why don't you folks who are against justification by faith alone stick with passages that deal with the body of Christ. You are always going to passgages prior to Calvary (which again tells me you still do not understand what took place at Calvary) or you go to tribulation passages which have nothing to do with the body of Christ.

You mean we should quote Paul, not the Gospels. :o

You folks are always taking passages that deal with Israel - try sticking with Paul.

Study Paul first and get it settled.
2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

How about we hear Paul out?
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

Those who adhere to Paul, but abandon the Gospels preach a gospel that is "of Paul," which Paul expressly forbade.

 

[Free]

Re: Stick with Paul

[quote"AVBunyan"]Free - it appears you do no believe that Christ died for your sins - you do not hold fast the word - i.e. you do not believe what Paul said.[/quote]
As OC pointed out, it is error to think that I don't believe Christ died for my sins simply because I believe that one can lose their salvation. And I do believe what Paul said. You, on the other hand, are not reading what Paul wrote. You are ignoring the implication of the word "if" in 1 Cor. 15.

Why don't you folks who are against justification by faith alone stick with passages that deal with the body of Christ. You are always going to passgages prior to Calvary (which again tells me you still do not understand what took place at Calvary) or you go to tribulation passages which have nothing to do with the body of Christ.

You folks are always taking passages that deal with Israel - try sticking with Paul.

Study Paul first and get it settled.

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

I thought you were a Christian, that is, a follower of Christ? Your argument implies that Christ and Paul taught different things. However, I think that careful study will show this to not be the case. You cannot have Paul without having Christ.

What your arguments do, what OSAS doctrine does, is completely undermine all of Paul's warnings to stand firm and put on the armour of God.

Paul is very specific in his speaking above, please note the phrase "the gospel I preached" as the gospel Paul preached is far deeper and thus differs in that in brings men into a deeper understanding of God, than was previously possible than that presented in the Gospels.

So Paul preaches a different gospel than Christ? Is there other good news besides the death and resurrection of Christ? But you too are ignoring the use of "if".

Every person who believes will be saved, but only a few will express this in its perfection in their present life on earth.

If they believe to the end. That is the whole point.

As OC has correctly pointed out, Paul speaks of salvation as both past, present and ongoing, and future events. This is something that OSAS completely ignores.

 

[cj]

More inflammatory remarks with no scriptural validation.

"with no scriptural value".... you make no sense OC.

I'm not writing scriptures, just opening them up for you. The value in this is found in the light you can receive as a result.

But hey, after your "away" foolishness the above is pretty much par for the course with you.

In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

Growing wearing of this

As OC pointed out, it is error to think that I don't believe Christ died for my sins simply because I believe that one can lose their salvation.

You are basing you salvation on holding out unto the end thus what you are saying is you are trusting you and not Christ alone. You are not resting upon what Christ did at Calvary but what Free might do or might not do. The issue is not what one does or doesn’t do but what is one resting their faith on. You are resting on you – and yet you and others cannot and will not see that

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Your argument implies that Christ and Paul taught different things.

If you can’t see that Paul has later instructions given to him by Christ himself then your Bible study is very shallow. Why not just stay in the OT? Are you going to tell me Moses and Paul taught the same things too? Foolishness! Paul taught truth based upon Calvary – Jesus taught based upon a coming and how to get into that Jewish, literal, physical, earthly kingdom.

What your arguments do, what OSAS doctrine does, is completely undermine all of Paul's warnings to stand firm and put on the armour of God.

Putting on the armour is a practical outworking of justification – this command has nothing to do with being justified. You folks make a living with this kind of reasoning. Paul gives a lot of commands that have nothing to do with salvation but ones’ walk after salvation.

Practical is not the same as positional.
State is not the same as standing.

You folks continue to confuse the two for you can’t get your standing and position right so you take verses dealing with state and practical and make them salvation and justification.

Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State

I think one of the reasons people are confused about eternal security and their Christian walk is that they confuse Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State.

I’m sure most know this but I thought I’d throw it out anyway for discussion.

Position and Standing
This is how God sees you after he saved you and put you in His dear Son and seated you in heavenly places in Christ. God knows that because of the sin nature in us He has to declare us righteous even though we are not. God can do this because Christ has taken our place at Calvary and on this basis God declares us righteous. So “in the books†the saint, from God’s standpoint, is perfect, as though he never sinned or ever will sin. It has to be this way because if not we have no hope!

Practical and State
This is how we are down here. We are still stuck in these vile bodies that likes to sin (Rom. 7). Because of the sin nature still in us we are in a fight daily. So, most of the time our state is a wreck. Sins are associated with our state.

I think what people do is look at their “state†and are counting on their “state†to ultimately determine their “standing†before God.

Hey gang, if you are saved the standing is settled. Does this mean you can quit now that Jesus “took and passed the final exam for you� No, we should strive to be all that God has called us to be.

Our duty then?

Doctrine – Ephesians chapters 1-3 tells you your standing in Christ. Then, Eph. 4-6 tells you how to walk because of that standing. Eph. 4:1: “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.â€Â

In other words, “Now that you are perfect in Christ, walk your position heavenly position down here.†Up there (heaven) is victory, holiness, forgiveness, and assurance. Are you going to fail down here? Yes, so by the power of the Spirit and the instruction from the word as it is read and preached from the pulpit we are equipped to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called.

What happens when one doesn’t know his standing. He looks at his state. One day it is Alabama, one day it is Oregon, and the next day it is New York. No stability and assurance there. Then he begins to try harder, goes up and down in his walk, gets discouraged, and finally is in despair because he thinks his state will determine his standing. A lot of time he even gives up because he gets too discouraged.

When a saint understands his standing and grace then he is so thankful, assured, and comforted that he is able to endure his vile flesh for he knows he is safe. He is on guard and prepared for he knows it will take the power of God to finish the work that has been done (Phil 1:6).

So Paul preaches a different gospel than Christ? Is there other good news besides the death and resurrection of Christ?

The issue here is how is a man justified before God. Based upon the latest instructions given to Paul by Christ we are justified by the faith of Christ – his death, burial and resurrection. Now tell me – show me where Christ taught a man was saved by trusting the death, burial and resurrection. Look closely at Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. Christ just told them about Calvary and it was hid from them. Jesus taught the gospel of the kingdom (Israel) – Paul got later instructions from Christ himself and taught the gospel of God’s grace (I Cor. 15:1-5). Again, I do not expect your crowd to see or believe this one bit – you will just twist it and put words in my mouth and assume something I didn’t say or mean.

As OC has correctly pointed out, Paul speaks of salvation as both past, present and ongoing, and future events. This is something that OSAS completely ignores.

What you ignore is the difference between the practical outworking of justification. You want to be able to stand before God and have him pat you on the back for being a fine fella’!

 

[cj]

Re: Stick with Paul

Paul is very specific in his speaking above, please note the phrase "the gospel I preached" as the gospel Paul preached is far deeper and thus differs in that in brings men into a deeper understanding of God, than was previously possible than that presented in the Gospels.

So Paul preaches a different gospel than Christ?

This is not what I said, be more careful in your reading.

What I said is that the gospel message that Paul preached is higher/deeper than that which is preached in the content of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

This is why Paul referred to his ministry as the completing ministry....

Colossians  1 : 25, "Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God,"

Gospel means service of Christ Jesus, the Slave-Savior, as the slave of God serving His people. The preaching of the gospel is the proclaiming/telling of this service to men. But based on the revelation of His service found in the first four books of the NT, one cannot proclaim the full truth regarding His service. It is not until Paul came along that the full extent of what our Lord has accomplished was revealed to men.

This is what the preaching of the full gospel is.

Colossians  1 : 24-29, "I now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body, which is the church; Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints; To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; For which also I labor, struggling according to His operation which operates in me in power.

In all honesty, based on the question you asked above I would say that you have never really considered this matter of just what the full gospel of Christ really is. And yet, you would think to speak about the matter of salvation.

This is to speak from an veiled view.

Is there other good news besides the death and resurrection of Christ?

Absolutely there is, and its revelation is the core of Paul's ministry to us.

Tell me, how would you know what Christ in you means, what the reality of this wonderful news means, had Paul not been given the revelation of this?

Do you not realize that none of the other apostles had any real understanding of this reality? Yet you perhaps think that without Paul's writings you would come to know this truth regarding the full work of our salvation?

I think not.

The good news is the death, burial, resurrection, and coming of the promise to accomplish God's eternal desire of an expression of Himself in humanity.

Christ was the pattern of what we will all be..... tell me, do you think you would know this had there been no Pauline ministry?

But you too are ignoring the use of "if". If they believe to the end. That is the whole point.

I ignoring no "if"...... tell me, what happen to you when you believed?

As OC has correctly pointed out, Paul speaks of salvation as both past, present and ongoing, and future events. This is something that OSAS completely ignores.

Actually its not.

You're a person,..... with a past, a present, and ongoing, and a future.

All different aspect of the same thing, your person.

As is our salvation is manifested in different aspects of its process. Yet its still one work of God. And God completes that which He starts.

There is absolutely no way, that God having caused you to believe in Him wll not continue to cause you to believe in Him.

And this is why I asked you about what happened when you first believed.

Did you initiate it or did God initiate it?

Its amazing,...... you want to be saved and know that to be saved you must believe, and that to believe God must be the source of your belief, and that God is will ing to save those who would believe.

Yet, you feel you must play some part in it.

You contradict yourself Free.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

What you ignore is the difference between the practical outworking of justification. You want to be able to stand before God and have him pat you on the back for being a fine fella’!

I sure do. The alternative is chilling

Matthew 25:23
Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Oh, but these say "that isn't about ultimate salvation," ie heaven or hell.
But Jesus says
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Let's stop there, and not entertain the alternative, for we believe better things of you, that you are not of those who shrink back.


Not a thing there about our faith in Matthew 25. No, rather, about our faithfulness as stewards of the grace of God. OSAS and their Calvinist doctrines teach that humans are God's hand puppets, having not the freedom to choose evil after what they call salvation.

Absolute unbiblical foolishness, half a truth, worse than a whole lie.

 

[AVBunyan]

Not a thing there about our faith in Matthew 25. No, rather, about our faithfulness as stewards of the grace of God. OSAS and their Calvinist doctrines teach that humans are God's hand puppets, having not the freedom to choose evil after what they call salvation.

Very shallow Bible study on you part - :o

The context of Matt 25 is the second advent and later where Christ will judge the nations. Has absolutey nothing to do with the body of Christ today - Matt. 25 is tribulation and kingdom age doctrine and you just took it and shoved it into this age of grace and slapped Jewish truths upon the body of Christ - Amazing!!! :o

About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo.

You and others had better learn what is meant doctrinally for you and what is not for you. You keep taking what is meant for Israel from another age and slapping it on you. Very poor Bible study.

You have missed the doctrine of Calvary and the body of Christ.

 

[Free]

You are basing you salvation on holding out unto the end thus what you are saying is you are trusting you and not Christ alone.

No, I trust in Christ. I just don't think it is as cut-and-dry as evangelicals make it out to be. Maybe most prefer a license to sin, or perhaps OSAS is just a reaction against the fear of losing one's salvation.

Paul taught truth based upon Calvary – Jesus taught based upon a coming and how to get into that Jewish, literal, physical, earthly kingdom.

Is that really what Jesus taught? I thought that Jesus taught that belief in him and his death and resurrection was what brought eternal life.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Sounds a lot like Paul doesn't it?

Now tell me – show me where Christ taught a man was saved by trusting the death, burial and resurrection.

See above.

Paul got later instructions from Christ himself and taught the gospel of God’s grace (I Cor. 15:1-5).

I am curious where Paul states he received later instructions from Christ himself. And I also wonder why you fail to understand the use of "if":

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

What you ignore is the difference between the practical outworking of justification. You want to be able to stand before God and have him pat you on the back for being a fine fella’!

If you can't debate the point, then don't say anything, and especially don't say something so condescending and presumptuous.

The problem with OSAS is that it first assumes that it is true and then interprets all Scripture with that bias. It is much like Oneness doctrine in that sense. Whereas the rest of us are at least trying to take into account all that the Bible says on the subject.

You have missed...the body of Christ.

Kind of hypocritical coming from someone whose signature states "so Independent the Independents don't even like us!," don't you think? You should not accuse someone of missing the body of Christ when you have separated yourself from that body.

In all honesty, based on the question you asked above I would say that you have never really considered this matter of just what the full gospel of Christ really is. And yet, you would think to speak about the matter of salvation.

This is to speak from an veiled view.

I just wonder why it is that pretty much everyone is veiled according to you, except for you... And my question has nothing to do with your assumption; I was merely trying to get you to clarify what you were saying.

Actually its not.

You're a person,..... with a past, a present, and ongoing, and a future.

Actually, yes, it is. According to your reasoning, salvation should go on for all eternity and never come to a completion. Yet, we know that it does come to a completion when Christ returns.

There is absolutely no way, that God having caused you to believe in Him wll not continue to cause you to believe in Him.

Correction. God draws people to himself where we are free to reject or accept his offer of grace. And it is this drawing which continues, as does the choice to reject or continue in his grace. Sin closes us off to the grace of God and hardens our hearts (see above Scripture), while good works and spiritual disciplines keep us open to God's grace.

Its amazing,...... you want to be saved and know that to be saved you must believe, and that to believe God must be the source of your belief, and that God is will ing to save those who would believe.

Yet, you feel you must play some part in it.

You contradict yourself Free.

And God is three "persons" in one being. Some consider this contradictory too, yet it takes into account a fuller range and understanding of Scripture than any other doctrine.

 

[cj]

I just wonder why it is that pretty much everyone is veiled according to you, except for you...

So far I believe my use of the term veiled has been mainly in respect to believers who submit themselves to the false doctrines of men. This is something that scripture tells us.

Additionally, I was careful to relate my speaking above to the specific question you asked. If I misunderstood why you asked this question then simply correct me, but don't make the silly suggestions that I think that only I see clearly.

And my question has nothing to do with your assumption; I was merely trying to get you to clarify what you were saying.

Christ is the gospel, and Paul clearly declares in his epistles that he declares Christ. What is not clear?

Actually, yes, it is. According to your reasoning, salvation should go on for all eternity and never come to a completion. Yet, we know that it does come to a completion when Christ returns.

So lets play games..... as a person, is there anymore personhood that you will receive?

No. You are who you are. Yet, you are no longer like you were when you were a child.

Now concerning your experiences that you will have as a person, these will go on for an eternity. And scripture tells us this.

You are confusing two aspects of our salvation,....... receiving it and experiencing it.

When you were conceived you received your personhood, but it took many years to manifest itself in its fulness. But just because it is now fully manifested this does not mean that there is nothing further.

Correction. God draws people to himself where we are free to reject or accept his offer of grace.

There's no correction. The point you are making is not realted to what I was saying.... see below.

And it is this drawing which continues, as does the choice to reject or continue in his grace.

See, this is where you contradict yourself.

God's grace is a Person. And for one to be able to "continue" in this Person, according to the way God has set up His plan, the moment that a person believe just once in this Person, the one believing became the property of God.

The way you put it suggests that you do not belong to God even if you have believed. This is not what scripture says.

What scripture says is that in a single moment of believing, God instantly causes this believing one to become the property of his Son.

Fact is, if a man does not want to become God's property, don't have a single believing thought.

Sin closes us off to the grace of God and hardens our hearts (see above Scripture), while good works and spiritual disciplines keep us open to God's grace.

Absolutely.

But the us that becomes closed off is the aspect of us that is found in the heart, this being the mind, emotion, and the will, as well as a part of the conscience.

Scripture does not say that God regenerated our soul, it says that He regenerated our spirit.

Our soul for the most part remains unregenerated for years and years, but this does not mean we are not saved, it simply means that we are still in the process of our salvation working itself out into our soul.

Eventually, our salvation will even work itself out into our bodies. This is what it means to have a glorified body. A glorified body is one that has become constituted with a man's salvation.

And God is three "persons" in one being. Some consider this contradictory too, yet it takes into account a fuller range and understanding of Scripture than any other doctrine.

Some might, I don't. But we've been over that ground before.


Free, you believe and therefore you're saved.

You might believe that there is a possibility of losing your salvation and so you conduct yourself in the fear of this.

Okay, but call it what it is. And that is a living and a being out of the fear of losing something rather than a living and a being out of the joy of gaining something.


Additionally, you seem to think that people who believe that we cannot lose our salvation automatically take this as a free-card to do whatever they want. But arn't you forgetting something? God perhaps?

Who controls all things? God right? So don't you think that since God's heart is on saving a man He will do whatever is needed to ensure that this man remains in a desperate state, desperate for God.

Have you ever witnessed God strip a man of his very being? Strip him of his very self?

Understand this, God can bring any man to his end, and still keep this man alive.

Do you not think that God would do this to a man before he would allow this man to fall away from Him?

God can turn a man inside out Free. He can cause a man to come to dispise even his very fallen nature even while he has nothing else to lay hold of.

God can drive a man to commit suicide and then bring this man back to the very life he dispised to the point of killing himself to get away from it.

And you think this God will allow a man to believe and then fall away?


No Free, a believer cannot lose his salvation,... but he can lose his reward.


In love,
cj

 

[His reflection]

I hope I will be forgiven for posting this 1 chapter but I think it will answer a lot of questians:
1 cor 2:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

In today world we must be on the look out for men with enticing words, note that the words of man is very different from the words of God.
The simple man cannot understand the Words of God true understanding comes for Gods Spirit.
It is the spirit that reveals the truth and teaches to His people.
Unfortunately or fortunately the natural man knoweth the things of God.

I guess now we see why this debate has to go on, it because on one hand the natural man is trying to interpret God's word (which he can't) and the other hand the spirit of god dwelling in man givr the true interpretation but man with enticing words trys to "be-little" the truth. This has been the major fight for genarations but one day it will stop and we all know how will win.
Without the spirit none can understand God's word.

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Shalom,

I just thought I would add a wee little thought. Since I started learning how to read music and sing in a choir, well let me backtrack and say, I did it as a challenge to myself to see how well I could first get along with others in a church, and simply place into order a lot of the new things I've learned. The opportunity to learn to sing was actually simply given to me on a golden plate, and I almost refused it and said, "oh no, I can't sing".. because that's what people told me. But anyway I thank God that the Choirmaster persuaded me, only because he needed more men I 'spose but there you have it.

Anyway, today he admitted to me that at first he had doubts that I would actually be able to sing! But now we are in lesson 4 and he said, actually, yes you can do it! If you persevere.. he even said he was enjoying the lesson! Whew!! But what I mean to say was, that I thought last week, well there's one song I really like and I thought I could do it quite well. Buuut! Then I went to the choir and I fell all over the place with it. I was trying to follow and copy the guy next to me. He was not "loud" but able to pitch the sharps and the flats really well, and then I'm thinking, oh gee I'm not getting these notes at all and well getting tense and and distracted, and generally the whole evening turned into a flop for me! Well.. the choirmaster said it wasn't our best evening anyway but in today's lesson, I sung that same song I was having trouble with, I could get the notes as they are all in my range and with a little more work from him I was also able to understand the timing better as well.. where to come off the note.. if it is 3 beats in a bar then you go, 1 2 3 off rather than 1 2 off and so sing the whole 3rd note and so he finally got his message across and enjoyed the lesson.

So.. the lesson I learned is if you want to sing in a Choir then you have to be the one making the music yourself. If you try and do what the next guy is doing, it's going to throw you, even if you are bith trying to do the same thing. The difference is merely that, rather than try and copy what the other's doing, you are doing it yourself and he is doing it himself. Then you have a unison. If one stops the other keeps going so the are independant of each other. They aren't doing the same thing, only their own way. They are just doing the same thing independantly of each other. That's what I believe true unity is. Not agreeing with another over one thing or simply singing the same note on a whole page of notes, but singing all the same notes, one after the other. And actually, if you ask the other guy to help you, you're just distracting him! There's no mutual reliance on one another to actually be able to sing, the reliance on the others is to create the unison. You can do it without them and they can do it without you. I am straining myself to make the point here but unity isn't a thing of mutual dependence. but, weirdly I think the bottom line is, if you want to achieve unity, you have to do it yourself, and let others simply do their part! You are joining them in other words. It's not a matter of just doing what the guy next to you is doing. Your all singing off the same song sheet and you are then all doing exactly the same thing. That's Unison.

If you then take this thought and apply it to scripture:

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Who is doing the endeavouring? The other guy? That he ought to agree with you and come to see things your way? So that you agree? Or is it up to you? Are you the one which is endeavouring? I would like to add the thought that the result of this is peace. You are not depending upon others; you are simply doing your part of the song. Not copying the next guy, not asking him to help you and thus distracting his energy from acheiving his part. Or even arguing with him about the song. How futile! Howbeit so that satan can come so freely along and distract each into the business of another! You stick to your song and give not opportunity to the enemy to come in between you and prevent any unity from coming to be in the first place. And sing your song from the songsheet not from a badly reproduced copy. Is it hard to do? Can you do your part and "join" the chorus?

 

[fcs25]

:-D Debate more Debate and Argue is that why over 30000 protestant denomination exist and each one of them claim to be the true church founded by Christ?????

There is only one church that has existed for 2000 yrs.......the Holy Catholic Church.Guess which one was founded by Christ??