The Reason for Endless Debates

[Orthodox Christian]

Everyone else is "clueless," AVB, except we can figure out what "believe in vain" means- and on this or no other planet does it mean not believe.

Nor do we tear out entire books and passages- "James is for the Jews"..."the gospels are for Jews before the crucifixion"...you are lost and doomed, AVB, for you are promoting a false religion of Paulism.

The there is the matter of your incessant need for sarcasm (a) and meritless condescension(b).

(a)

By the way - the phrase you keeping clinging to, "to the end" is found in Mark, Matthew, and Hebrews. This "end" is referrig to the end of a period of time - the tribulation - always has been a reference to this and always will be.

You made it reference to the end of one's "life" - wrong.

It is dealing with the future tribulation period and the saved is a reference to one's physical life not spiriutal life.

Context determines the meaning - missed it again.

The instructions to the churches in Asia MInor- which commanded perseverence to the end- were not referring to the end of tribulation, since those to whom it was written have died, and the Great Tribulation has not come to an end.

Really? - Man I didn't know that

You get sacked in your own end zone and come up spiking the ball and jumping into the stands...and you call others clueless??
:

(b)

Honestly - I can't go on - it is time for me to sign off here - there is no way in the world I can seek to explain this to you.

You know what - I could explain this in detail to you. But you know what? No way am I going to.

You, at this point in time, are just not capable of understanding right division (II Tim 2:15).

If you are serious about understanding this sciptural method of study (and I believe you are not) then search my posts (they go back to 2003) and my position is quite clear.

I'm quite familiar with your position- it is a variant on Marcionism sometimes known as Paulism. I'm not at all clear why I should be directed to read 2 years of your view on the bible, when I have this bible before me?? Or why I should take exegetical cues from you, anymore than my daughter's second grade teacher should look to one of her students for a mentor??

you may have to prepare yourself.

No, I most definitely DO need to "prepare myself," O foolish virgin, be wise, and do so also.

 

[von]

It is a personal attack to say that one who does not believe OSAS does not believe that Christ's death was sufficient for our sins. The truth is OSAS believe that they can trample the death of Christ by not believeing that you must serve Him. It is not enough to accept Christ as your Savior. You make a fool out of His death by suggesting that you can live your life any way you want and still get to Heaven.
Also, the Bible says that we are responsible from the time of John the Baptist. And He preached repentence.

 

[Heidi]

Man, there sure are a lot of people who doubt their faith here! It appears that many Christians on this forum are hanging on to their faith by a thread. If our salvation doesn't depend on Christ alone then we must be more powerful than he is! And here I thought he was more powerful than us. I'm sorry that so many people here don't think so. :

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Man, there sure are a lot of people who doubt their faith here! It appears that many Christians on this forum are hanging on to their faith by a thread. If our salvation doesn't depend on Christ alone then we must be more powerful than he is! And here I thought he was more powerful than us. I'm sorry that so many people here don't think so. :

It's not people who doubt themselves who scare me- it's those who do not.

If our salvation depended on Christ alone, in the strictest sense, then everyone would be saved

For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So what keeps all men from being saved? It sure ain't God that does so.

 

[cj]

...you are lost and doomed, AVB, for you are promoting a false religion of Paulism.

Says the pot to the kettle.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

If our salvation depended on Christ alone, in the strictest sense, then everyone would be saved

This is about as anti-Christ a statement as ever uttered from the lips of a man.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

It is a personal attack to say that one who does not believe OSAS does not believe that Christ's death was sufficient for our sins.

No, not really.

The truth is OSAS believe that they can trample the death of Christ by not believeing that you must serve Him.

This is a silly lie.

Grow up. I doubt you know what serving God is in reality.

It is not enough to accept Christ as your Savior. You make a fool out of His death by suggesting that you can live your life any way you want and still get to Heaven.

And now you show us that you don't know much about the matter of Christ.

"Still get to heaven huh..." okay.

Where is Christ seated right at this moment Von?

Also, the Bible says that we are responsible from the time of John the Baptist. And He preached repentence.

Jesus said that even the least member of the church is greater than John B.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

If our salvation depended on Christ alone, in the strictest sense, then everyone would be saved

This is about as anti-Christ a statement as ever uttered from the lips of a man.

In love,
cj

Then rebut it substantively, if you can.
I know it is difficult to rise above simple mindless heckling and random catcalls, but give it a go.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

It is a personal attack to say that one who does not believe OSAS does not believe that Christ's death was sufficient for our sins.

No, not really.

The truth is OSAS believe that they can trample the death of Christ by not believeing that you must serve Him.

This is a silly lie.

Grow up. I doubt you know what serving God is in reality.

It is not enough to accept Christ as your Savior. You make a fool out of His death by suggesting that you can live your life any way you want and still get to Heaven.

And now you show us that you don't know much about the matter of Christ.

"Still get to heaven huh..." okay.

Where is Christ seated right at this moment Von?

Also, the Bible says that we are responsible from the time of John the Baptist. And He preached repentence.

Jesus said that even the least member of the church is greater than John B.

In love,
cj

Behold the fruit hanging on the vine.


Hi again von:
I hope you don't take cj's attacks seriously- remember, a creature can only act according to its nature. CJ is a jackass of a man who brays and kicks at everything he sees and much that he does not.

Unfortunately, his lack of opposable thumbs seems to do little to slow his typing.

 

[farley]

AV,

Hopefully, you will be pleased to see that James is in harmony with Paul on the issue of OSAS, as well as everything else!

Iames 5:19-20 KJV-1611
(19) Brethren, if any of you doe erre from the trueth, and one conuert him,
(20) Let him know, that hee which conuerteth the sinner from the errour of his way, shall saue a soule from death, and shall hide a multitude of sinnes.

I would be very interested to learn your interpretation of the passage above.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Also, the Bible says that we are responsible from the time of John the Baptist. And He preached repentence.

Jesus said that even the least member of the church is greater than John B.

John the forerunner's message: Repent, the Kingdom of heaven is at hand
Jesus the Christ's message: Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Peter's message on Pentecost: Repent and be baptized.

It is a personal attack to say that one who does not believe OSAS does not believe that Christ's death was sufficient for our sins.

No, not really.

No, I have to agree with bj, it isn't a personal attack, per se, it's just the self-justifying spoutings of an imbecile to equate rejection of OSAS doctrine with damnation.

The truth is OSAS believe that they can trample the death of Christ by not believeing that you must serve Him.

This is a silly lie.

Grow up. I doubt you know what serving God is in reality.

Now THAT is a personal attack.
"Grow up" is always good advice, cuz we all are to do so, to grow into the stature and fulness of Christ.
To CJ, the sage would say "physician, heal thyself."

It is not enough to accept Christ as your Savior. You make a fool out of His death by suggesting that you can live your life any way you want and still get to Heaven.

And now you show us that you don't know much about the matter of Christ.

"Still get to heaven huh..." okay.

Where is Christ seated right at this moment Von?

Where is Christ seated? My bet is that he has season tickets on the 50 yard line- He's connected.

Someone please inform CJ that there is an end, a judgement, and forever- and then we can discuss the destiny of the persevering saint.

 

[cj]

Then rebut it substantively, if you can.
I know it is difficult to rise above simple mindless heckling and random catcalls, but give it a go.

Darkened one,..... I've spoken to your scriptural ignorance on many occasions, including your blindness to the scriptural truth concerning the matter of eternal salvation.

And fear not, I will continue as I feel necessary.

Until then,..... lets look at your hypocrisy in action,

You said, "I know it is difficult to rise above simple mindless heckling and random catcalls, but give it a go."



Ahh well. Your words above once again prove you are unable to rise to your own declared desire of speaking, and yet you would say you can add to Jesus' salvation of your person.


But we've been here before haven't we.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I hope you don't take cj's attacks seriously- remember, a creature can only act according to its nature. CJ is a jackass of a man who brays and kicks at everything he sees and much that he does not.

I got your number haven't I,...... I've really got your number OC.

Keep speaking OC,.... keep speaking so that all can see your poor inner condition, and thus know for themselves the evil issue of following your pattern.

Unfortunately, his lack of opposable thumbs seems to do little to slow his typing.

And more,........ what was it that you said in the post above?

Ahh yes,.... "I know it is difficult to rise above simple mindless heckling and random catcalls, but give it a go."

Hypocrisy in its purest form.



Keep talking OC, keep talking,...... I'm still here.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodoxy]

Man, there sure are a lot of people who doubt their faith here! It appears that many Christians on this forum are hanging on to their faith by a thread. If our salvation doesn't depend on Christ alone then we must be more powerful than he is! And here I thought he was more powerful than us. I'm sorry that so many people here don't think so. :

It's not people who doubt themselves who scare me- it's those who do not.

Amen to that!

[quote:22aab]If our salvation depended on Christ alone, in the strictest sense, then everyone would be saved
[quote:22aab]For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So what keeps all men from being saved? It sure ain't God that does so.[/quote:22aab][/quote:22aab]


Bingo!

1090 A.D. by Archbishop of Ochrid and Bulgaria the blessed Theophylact said

"No one is kept in hell as a punishment then restored to glory. Rather, it is the weight of his own sins which holds him there."

Saint Irenaeus of Lyons Martyr for Christ

"It is clear that His Father has made everyone in a like condition, each person having a choice of his own & a free understanding."


Saint Nicholas Cabasilas, Martyr for Christ

“So in order that we may not destroy the grace that we have received, but preserve it to the end and depart this life in possession of the treasure; there is need of something human, of endeavor on our part… it is neither reasonable nor usual for us to merely to be content with having received life … Rather we must seek the means of preserving it.â€Â

Saint John Chrysostom, Martyr for Christ

For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumbling of sinners by force … it is necessary to make man better not by force but persuasion … God gives the crown to those who are kept from evil, not by force but by choice.â€Â

Saint Basil the Great, Martyr for Christ

“Remember how none of the saints of old won their crowns of patients endurance by living luxuriously and being courted; but ALL were tested by being put through fire of great afflictions. For they had trials of cruel mocking and scourging, and others were sawn asunder and were slain with the sword. These are the glories of the saints.â€Â

How can I an unworthy servant measure up to people such as these!?

I certainly am not worthy.

a sinner

kyril

 

[cj]

AV,

Hopefully, you will be pleased to see that James is in harmony with Paul on the issue of OSAS, as well as everything else!

Iames 5:19-20 KJV-1611
(19) Brethren, if any of you doe erre from the trueth, and one conuert him,
(20) Let him know, that hee which conuerteth the sinner from the errour of his way, shall saue a soule from death, and shall hide a multitude of sinnes.

I would be very interested to learn your interpretation of the passage above.

In Christ,

farley

A man is a tripartite being, spirit, soul, and body.

Most certainly James is correct to say that a man's soul can suffer death, this is what it means to be touched by the second death,

But a man's soul is not a man's spirit, and it is the spirit of a man which is instantly regenerated at rebirth, and into which God Himself comes to dwell.

This regenerated spirit cannot suffer death, for God Himself dwells in it.

Therefore, the man who has believed and had his spirit regenerated cannot lose this regeneration in his spirit, and eventually, God being One who completes what He started, the ressurrection power that is in this regenerated spirit will flow out and enter into this man's soul and even further, into his dead body, enlivening both anew.


I don't believe a man cannot suffer loss of reward, it would be unscriptural to believe this. But I know a man who has believed and thus regenerated in his spirit can never lose his eternal position and life in Christ, and therefore will one day stand with all other believers. Regardless of how poorly he expressed Christ as he lived out his life on earth.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

No, I have to agree with bj, it isn't a personal attack, per se, it's just the self-justifying spoutings of an imbecile to equate rejection of OSAS doctrine with damnation.

Still smarting huh.

Okay, just keep talking OC, your own words condemn you.

Now THAT is a personal attack.

You should know huh,...

"Grow up" is always good advice, cuz we all are to do so, to grow into the stature and fulness of Christ.
To CJ, the sage would say "physician, heal thyself."

And to the sage CJ would say, "Sage, be cool, and don't be a fool,... Come out of the apostate religion you so love."

Where is Christ seated? My bet is that he has season tickets on the 50 yard line- He's connected.

And not only on the 50 yard line, but He's actually also playing the game Himself. He is also the stadium in which it is being played, and He is even the ticket to the game.

Christ, He's just the all-inclusive one. He is all and in all.

Someone please inform CJ that there is an end, a judgement, and forever- and then we can discuss the destiny of the persevering saint.

Ohhh boy,..... where'd you learn that OC, off one of those kissable icons you smoch every now and then?

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodoxy]

Someone please inform CJ that there is an end, a judgement, and forever- and then we can discuss the destiny of the persevering saint.

Ohhh boy,..... where'd you learn that OC, off one of those kissable icons you smoch every now and then?

In love,
cj

[/quote]

2 Corinthians 5:1

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

"Present or absent we labor to be accepted of Him"

Orthodox Christian:

"the persevering saint"

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

The reason, if I may be blunt and for you persons outside the USA forgive me, the reason there is no agreement in the protestant reformation is no one believes in the same one Jesus Christ.

No Agreement. No Common unity. No one mind. Many judgements. Many hearts screaming out their own vanity. Many confessions of faith. Nothing in common but distain for everthing "catholic", in this there is agreement to the protestant reformation.

The facts are each person reading the bible gets a vision of Jesus Christ in their minds, what ever "He" maybe, and begins by using the bible to formulate a Jesus that fits around what they have read. But this is a vision of Jesus Christ that is not based on the historical reality of Jesus Christ but a reality created in one's own mind. A faith based on a misrepresentation of the real thing. An imposter.

Burgerking is a fast food resturant in the USA and around the world. There you can have a hamburger anyway you want it. In the Christian faith we can have Jesus Christ any way we want Him. He must cater to our passions and worldly desirers. Of course we believe in this version of Jesus we make up, why? He is comfortable and manipulatable. With no accounability but to a book and a made up Jesus Christ, we can do and say what every we want. Burgerkingism and this jesus is a burgerkingjesus.

Fact is Jesus Christ is tangible and knowable through His Church that has existed throughout time and can be seen today. We can not make up Jesus Christ. A person can only enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. We do not define Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ defines Jesus Christ. He is present and visible in His fulness, "The Church".

Personally, I declare and proclaim this "Church" is the Holy Orthodox Church.

Coming to a town near you if not already.

Glory to God!

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Man, there sure are a lot of people who doubt their faith here! It appears that many Christians on this forum are hanging on to their faith by a thread. If our salvation doesn't depend on Christ alone then we must be more powerful than he is! And here I thought he was more powerful than us. I'm sorry that so many people here don't think so. :

It's not people who doubt themselves who scare me- it's those who do not.

Amen to that!

If our salvation depended on Christ alone, in the strictest sense, then everyone would be saved
[quote:5131c]For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So what keeps all men from being saved? It sure ain't God that does so.

Bingo!

1090 A.D. by Archbishop of Ochrid and Bulgaria the blessed Theophylact said

"No one is kept in hell as a punishment then restored to glory. Rather, it is the weight of his own sins which holds him there."

Saint Irenaeus of Lyons Martyr for Christ

"It is clear that His Father has made everyone in a like condition, each person having a choice of his own & a free understanding."


Saint Nicholas Cabasilas, Martyr for Christ

“So in order that we may not destroy the grace that we have received, but preserve it to the end and depart this life in possession of the treasure; there is need of something human, of endeavor on our part… it is neither reasonable nor usual for us to merely to be content with having received life … Rather we must seek the means of preserving it.â€Â

Saint John Chrysostom, Martyr for Christ

For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumbling of sinners by force … it is necessary to make man better not by force but persuasion … God gives the crown to those who are kept from evil, not by force but by choice.â€Â

Saint Basil the Great, Martyr for Christ

“Remember how none of the saints of old won their crowns of patients endurance by living luxuriously and being courted; but ALL were tested by being put through fire of great afflictions. For they had trials of cruel mocking and scourging, and others were sawn asunder and were slain with the sword. These are the glories of the saints.â€Â

How can I an unworthy servant measure up to people such as these!?

I certainly am not worthy.

a sinner

kyril[/quote:5131c]
Kyril my brother: What an awesome post. God's Light burns brightly in their words and your post.

We see often men promoting their own opinions, but here you have gifted us with those who have spoken with the wisdom of the ages.

Though even these were smoldering wicks in comparison to the burning star of Christ's glory, we see the Light of Light shining through their words.

This reminds me of the great Paschal tradition, which you know well, but bears repeating:
As every light in the Church is dimmed, so that only a single lamp is on burning on the altar, representing the Risen Christ, suddenly the hymn rings forth "Come receive the Light" and the priest/bishop brings forth the light from the altar, like unto the Empty Tomb- and light gets passed from person to person until all present stand in the Radiance of His Light, passed from human to human, and we join in proclaiming together "Christ is risen from the grave, trampling death by death, and upon those in the graves, bestowing life."

Yes, He is the Light, but it is passed from person to person until every torch is burning brightly with His Light. We continue to light our wicks in the flame of their words- which INDEED is holy fire from the altar, from Him.
Glory to His Holy Name

James, a sinner

 

[Orthodoxy]

Jame,

Though even these were smoldering wicks in comparison to the burning star of Christ's glory, we see the Light of Light shining through their words.

This reminds me of the great Paschal tradition, which you know well, but bears repeating:
As every light in the Church is dimmed, so that only a single lamp is on burning on the altar, representing the Risen Christ, suddenly the hymn rings forth "Come receive the Light" and the priest/bishop brings forth the light from the altar, like unto the Empty Tomb- and light gets passed from person to person until all present stand in the Radiance of His Light, passed from human to human, and we join in proclaiming together "Christ is risen from the grave, trampling death by death, and upon those in the graves, bestowing life."

Yes, He is the Light, but it is passed from person to person until every torch is burning brightly with His Light. We continue to light our wicks in the flame of their words- which INDEED is holy fire from the altar, from Him.

Thank you for your kind words. I could not have explained the bonding fire of God's love better because it is in this common unity of faith that the torch is passed to a new generation. Glory to God!

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril