The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[reba]

2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. admin

Not necessarily direct at the last poster

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When you have a chance, can you explain the logic behind you telling me what I've NOT said and completely failed at explaining prior to you reading what I've said and explained?

Obviously, I'm talking about you not having made the connection in everything else you've written.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The work of believing is done through the Spirit.
It is not of ourselves.
If it were, than we would be saving ourselves.

Explain how this works...God doing all my trusting in Christ for me. How's that work?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It must be tiring for you Jethro to wake up every day not sure if you've lost your salvation. How does one sleep at night.

Prove to me you understand non-OSAS doctrine. Explain to me how you think non-OSAS says one loses their salvation. I'm pretty sure you don't know. It's impossible to debate a topic where your opponent doesn't even understand your argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

Is the answer to this question in 1 Corinthians 15?

The answer is there in that it gives the reason why you CAN lose your salvation:

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

If you don't hold fast that which you heard, received, stand upon, and are saved by, none of those things will remain. And this is just one place in the Bible where it says these things.

Now you show me where in 1 Corinthians 15 it says you CAN'T lose your salvation, if you think it does.

 

[DRS81]

Explain to me how you think non-OSAS says one loses their salvation.

Well you're putting (non) in front of OSAS, which means the opposite. Are you sleeping ok.

 

[Deborah13]

There is some doubt in your mind that Judas and Jesus actually met? Why did He appoint a person he'd never met to be His Apostle?

No, no, I was going through your steps one by one. You said Judas was called by Jesus to be a disciple. I don't remember any scripture that tells us when Jesus and Judas first met or how. Some of the others it does. So I was asking you if you knew a scripture that contained that information.

Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles;

He "chose" Judas, I assume he had met him previously.

Also, you bring up John 6:64. The context is not about belief in general, it's about believing in the Eucharist. After telling His followers to "eat my body", some of them left due to unbelief of that doctrine. They didn't stop believing IN Jesus, but in what He had just said. "This is a hard saying, who can accept it?"

I glad you brought that up, there's several interesting things to look at here. Who are these disciples, they are Jews. First He tells them that the manna was not the true bread from heaven, He was. Then He goes on about eating flesh and drinking blood. Think about how that sounded to a Jew. Yike, talk about conflict with their Jewish faith. Would their Jewish Messiah say such a thing. But it was because they didn't understand Him. Then we have v64, that He knew some didn't believe and He tells them...
Joh 6:65 and he said, `Because of this I have said to you--No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'
So He just tells them that they aren't His if the HIS Father has not revealed the truth to them.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you--the twelve? and of you--one is a devil.
Maybe this is also when He first knows the Judas will betray Him?

No, not specifically, but he did leave behind some kind of life to follow Jesus. That speaks to the topic of belief. Who would leave behind a life for something they didn't believe in?
Judas' "office" was left vacant at his death.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and 'His office let another take.'

Thanks for correcting me on that, I didn't remember it.

Do you think the man casting out demons in Jesus' name had faith in Him?

I don't know, the scripture doesn't really say anything about him. But we know that there were others, including some of the important Jewish guys who had seen what He was doing and had followed Him around enough that they too were doing things in His name, like that man. Remember when that one devil attacked the Jew? And I think from the Rev. scripture we can see that God allows it even when one is not saved. So there is a different between salvation faith and faith in the power that comes in His name.

Not very many in America anymore. It's getting less and less advantageous. If someone really wants to gain advantage in America nowadays, they would need to convert to Islam. The media and the left (same thing) have found a new pet issue, the poor mistreated Muslim. They cry for "tolerance" for the Muslim while Christians are slaughtered in Muslim countries and they are silent....but I digress...OK off my soapbox now.

Agree with this somewhat but think how advantageous it is in the GOP or Tea Party. Last time a Mormon just missed being elected so you know many Christians and/or conservatives voted for him. My, I'm not sure all ministry leaders are saved and I don't spend time thinking about it.

 

[Deborah13]

The answer is there in that it gives the reason why you CAN lose your salvation:

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

If you don't hold fast that which you heard, received, stand upon, and are saved by, none of those things will remain. And this is just one place in the Bible where it says these things.

Now you show me where in 1 Corinthians 15 it says you CAN'T lose your salvation, if you think it does.

No, that was a link to my previous post you didn't respond to that says this .....

"Maybe one is not saved until the end of their life and during their life they must preserver in the faith (belief) in the good news message.
So what was that message?"

 

[Butch5]

not to be interruptive or argumentative, but in your opinion do you think Satan believes Jesus was the Christ?

Yes, the demons acknowledged it so I think Satan did also.

40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.
41 And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, "You are the Christ1, the Son of God!" And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.
(Luk 4:40-41 NKJ)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, that was a link to my previous post you didn't respond to that says this .....

"Maybe one is not saved until the end of their life and during their life they must preserver in the faith (belief) in the good news message.
So what was that message?"

I didn't get what you were driving at so I just let it go. But feel free to explain and we'll go from there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. Paul said “believed in vain” (past tense) yet even given this evidence you continue to say Paul really meant “that believing will be in vain if…” (future tense).

The believing they did (past tense) in the gospel he originally preached to them will have been in vain if they continue in the false doctrine that Jesus has not been resurrected.

I find that very, very significant evidence against the validity of your doctrine. And to use your word’s to me; “I would be ashamed to teach others” that Paul said “that believing will be in vain” when we both know that what he actually said was that they had already “believed in vain” right there in the very verse.

'Unless' they have believed in vain. The Corinthians themselves will ultimately decide if they have believed in vain by whether or not they come back to the truth about Christ's resurrection that Paul originally preached to them and which they believed and were saved by.

The text is inspired and Holy (and by the way flows logically) as written by Paul back in the 1st Century. Your doctrine is changing what He said to meet a desire for what it needs to say for you to be able to use the phrase “hold fast” for your purposes. The simple and plain fact is, Paul said otherwise.

You're still not connecting 'if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" to "unless you believed in vain"--the 'unless' not changing the truth of the fact that you will not continue to be saved by a gospel that you do not hold fast in. That fact stands all by itself. What is in question is if they are going to do that (stand fast in Paul's gospel). The 'unless you believed in vain' is in regard to what they do with the false doctrine of a dead Christ he is now going to address in this logically flowing passage.

I'll be back....

 

[chessman]

I'll be back....

Unless not.

 

[Gregg]

Oh, I see...

Sanctified by the blood of Christ, but not really sanctified by the blood of Christ.

Typical OSAS reasoning: The Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

Hi Jethro,

What does someone need to understand and do to become a Christian?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What does someone need to understand and do to become a Christian?

They have to put their trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

A person is sanctified by that faith in Christ (Acts 26:18 NASB). The author of Hebrews talks about those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ but who then trample on it and lose the only sacrifice for sin that there is (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB). But OSAS makes these sanctified people 'not really' sanctified.

 

[Deborah13]

I didn't get what you were driving at so I just let it go. But feel free to explain and we'll go from there.

Young's Literal Translation
1Co 15:2 through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,

This is what Vine's says,
(c) of the present experiences of God's power to deliver from the bondage of sin, e.g., Mat 1:21; Rom 5:10; 1Cr 15:2; Hbr 7:25; Jam 1:21; 1Pe 3:21; of human agency in this, 1Ti 4:16;

This is what I was getting at.

 

[chessman]

The Corinthians themselves will ultimately decide if they have believed in vain by whether or not they come back to the truth...

Now who's getting overly complicated?
"Come back"???? I thought Paul was talking to a church 100% full of true believers?

However, I thought a person that decides to give up on the truth that saved them cannot "come back" to it? What's up with Paul warning them to "come back" to that truth then?

it plainly says it is impossible to brought back from that fallen state.

Unless of course they never were there to begin with.

At some point an inconsistent doctrine turns into erroneous doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well you're putting (non) in front of OSAS, which means the opposite. Are you sleeping ok.

Okay, you apparently don't know the argument about how one loses their salvation in non-OSAS. In non-OSAS a person forfeits the grace of salvation they have received by no longer trusting in the blood Christ. So the only time someone has to think about losing their salvation is if they are thinking about abandoning the forgiveness of Christ.

So you can see I'm not lying awake in bed at night worried I'm going to lose my salvation. As long as I'm trusting in the blood of Christ I am saved, for all that means in this life and what it promises in the life to come. And I'm definitely not lying awake in bed at night worrying if the believing I'm doing now is really just fake, insincere believing that never saved me in the first place and I just don't know it yet because I haven't fallen yet.

 

[Deborah13]

Okay, you apparently don't know the argument about how one loses their salvation in non-OSAS. In non-OSAS a person forfeits the grace of salvation they have received by no longer trusting in the blood Christ. So the only time someone has to think about losing their salvation is if they are thinking about abandoning the forgiveness of Christ.

I don't think that is what Paul said in 1 Corinth. 15. He said you also had to believe that He was raised from the dead. That one has to believe the message that he first preached and that was more than forgiveness of sin.

So you can see I'm not lying awake in bed at night worried I'm going to lose my salvation. As long as I'm trusting in the blood of Christ I am saved, for all that means in this life and what it promises in the life to come. And I'm definitely not lying awake in bed at night worrying if the believing I'm doing now is really just fake, insincere believing that never saved me in the first place and I just don't know it yet because I haven't fallen yet.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now who's getting overly complicated?
"Come back"???? I thought Paul was talking to a church 100% full of true believers?

They believed Paul's gospel and were saved. He's now telling them that they are making that gospel null and void and unable to save them by turning away from it.

However, I thought a person that decides to give up on the truth that saved them cannot "come back" to it? What's up with Paul warning them to "come back" to that ruth then?

Once their fate is sealed it's over. There's no coming back. God is warning them through Paul to repent and stop sinning in regard to the resurrection of Christ so they can avoid that fate. Just as he warned the Hebrew and Galatian churches to not forsake the gospel of Christ they heard and accepted and believed, but were now turning away from, making it of no effect to them. God is warning them. He knows how long to give them to repent. We don't know how long that is, but we do know what will happen if they don't.

Unless of course they never were there to begin with.

How do they come back to something you say they never had to begin with? You can't have it both ways.


Now, back to what you haven't explained yet (I read your other post). How does whether or not the Corinthians believed in vain, or not, change the truth of 'if you hold fast the word which I preached to you'? 'Being saved by the gospel if you hold fast to it' is true whether or not the Corinthians believed in vain (for whatever reason), or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think that is what Paul said in 1 Corinth. 15. He said you also had to believe that He was raised from the dead. That one has to believe the message that he first preached and that was more than forgiveness of sin.

Justification is through the forgiveness of sins. Only a risen Christ can live to intercede on our behalf in heaven for the forgiveness of sins.

"25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." (Romans 4:25 NASB)

Paul said that is the message they heard and believed in and were saved by:

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..." (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 NASB)