Gregg
Member
Are there other things that someone must believe to become a Christian [such as repentance]? Would you list them?
Please have patience as I may ask a few questions for clarification.
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The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
Are there other things that someone must believe to become a Christian [such as repentance]? Would you list them?
Please have patience as I may ask a few questions for clarification.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Justification is by faith in Jesus Christ, all by itself.
turnorburn
Member
This was the scripture i was referring to...
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
tob
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
tob
Deborah13
Member
I agree.
Yes, there were three components to that one teaching. So it implies that what, He was actually in the flesh.
I think that Paul was dealing with the beliefs of the Gnostics here that didn't include the bodily resurrection because they believed Jesus was just an ordinary man that the Spirit of God had entered or others that He was actually a spirit. He had not come in the flesh.
1 John is obviously refuting Gnostic doctrines and those like them.
Gregg
Member
What I am asking for is a list of things that someone must understand and do to become a Christian. In other words, what is the Gospel message that you would share with someone who doesn't know about Christ or Christianity? Allow me to start this list.
1. repent of unbelief, by turning towards God and acknowledging one's sin
2. recognize that Jesus is the Son of God, God in the flesh
3. Jesus was crucified and died for our sins; we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins
4. Jesus is resurrected, raised on the third day
5. Jesus has ascended to the right hand of the Father.
6. confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.
Would you add to, subtract from, or modify anything in this list?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Looks like a gospel message to me.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, I made that connection, too--the warning about thinking wrongly about who Christ is, and I almost made note of it in one of my posts.
"23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)
They, like the Corinthians, are being led away from what they heard in the beginning. John's warning is the same to them that Paul's is to the Corinthians--that to continue in Christ they must continue in what they heard in the beginning about Christ and not deny the truth about who and what he is.
This denial of truth, this disowning of Christ, this turning away from who Christ is in salvation, is what will cut a person off from Christ and make Christ of no effect for a person. The Galatians were warned that their return to justification through the law would cut them off from their justification in Christ. The Hebrew church was warned that a return to reliance on the old system of sacrifice would cause them to lose the one sacrifice for sin they had that God has provided for the forgiveness of sin.
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Gregg
Member
Having been given the gift of faith by God's grace, when someone believes the Gospel they are then atoned to the Father; they are redeemed; their sins are remitted; their sins are covered; they have died with Christ and are raised with Him; God's Spirit now dwells in them. They are born again, a Christian.
To tell someone afterwards, 'by the way, you must continue believing to validate the work of God. You and your faith are now responsible for keeping your salvation,' is to modify the Gospel. If you modify the terms of the Gospel by adding a requirement to it that wasn't there when they became a Christian, you are in effect invalidating the Gospel that they heard and by which they believed.
Deborah13
Member
Yes, that is what I see, too. So I can't just ignore what these scriptures say. So they must be reconciled with other scripture. Just like James' and Paul's messages of what faith looks like.
Gregg
Member
The Gospel, which the lost hear and respond to before being saved, does not include that 'you must continue believing.' The Gospel says 'if you confess' [aorist active subjunctive] and 'believe' [aorist active subjunctive] then 'you will be saved' [future passive indicative] (Rom 10:9). If you confess and believe, then salvation is guaranteed.
Before someone is saved, there is no stipulation to continue believing - because believing has yet to begin.
To say afterwards to the believer, that 'now you must also continue believing to remain saved,' is to modify what they believed before they were saved. That is the same as secretly slipping carbon paper and another contract below the one being signed, or like cutting-and-pasting over the original contract once a signature obtained.
Before someone is saved, there is no stipulation to continue believing - because believing has yet to begin.
To say afterwards to the believer, that 'now you must also continue believing to remain saved,' is to modify what they believed before they were saved. That is the same as secretly slipping carbon paper and another contract below the one being signed, or like cutting-and-pasting over the original contract once a signature obtained.
chessman
Member
Guess what Paul doesn't say in 1 Cor 15? "You CAN'T lose your salvation".
Guess what else Paul doesn't say in 1 Cor 15? You CAN lose your salvation"
Boy, wouldn't it be nice if he'd said one or the other? But we can deduce his logic on this matter. Here's how:
1 Corinthians 15:10-11, 22-23, 28, 57
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain,
But by.... I.e. It's God's Grace alone. Yes I know you say you've recognized that a person cannot initially become saved but by God's Grace in conjunction with their free-will choice. Cool, I agree. How about maintaining it? I even agree one must maintain their free-will choice. I recognize, however, we have a Helper to do that very thing. Frankly, you've not addressed any of the passages that help to deduce OSAS?'s answer relative to the sealing and helping value of the H.S. Jesus didn't leave us without the 3rd person. He did so for a reason. But to stay close to the 1 Cor 15:1_-2 passage's evidence:
Your idea of what Paul meant to say in verse 1-2, (they are warned to not let their initial saving belief become 'vain' in the future) conflicts not only with the verse itself, but with verse 10-11 if you think it thru. Plus it requires a metaphorical meaning to the word "vain".
his grace to me has not been in vain,
A person simply cannot make God's grace that has truly been imparted to them by none other than God Himself become vain.
Which is why "unless they believed in vain" (past tense) means what it says. There were people there that had believed in vain, past tense. That's what the verse says. Not might have or might in the future, but did already. God's Grace is not vain now or in the future, their belief was, is the point.
but I labored even more than all of them, and not I, but the grace of God with me.
and in this way you believed.
For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own group: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s at his coming,
But whenever all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him, in order that God may be all in all.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
God gives victory, not a potential for victory.
Gregg
Member
Yes, 'if you confess' [aorist active subjunctive] and 'believe' [aorist active subjunctive] then 'you will be saved' [future passive indicative] (Rom 10:9). Salvation, which was previously future to him before he confessed and believed, is realized. The victory is immediate, and he then has eternal life in Christ. That one who confessed and believed is born again.
Jethro Bodine
Member
It plainly says that to be saved by the gospel you have to hold fast to the gospel:
"1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you... 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
But OSAS says this is a vain, empty threat that really isn't true.
I did.
You're not understanding the argument. It's only future in that God has not turned them over to their vain belief, yet. They're already toying with this un-risen, deceased Christ, just as the Galatians are toying with a return to justification by the law, and the Hebrews are toying with the sacrifices of the old covenant. The believing they have done already in Paul's Christ is the believing that is in vain now, and if they don't ultimately repent of their sinning regarding the resurrection of Christ. God is warning them.
"1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you... 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
Just another empty, hypothetical OSAS threat? Is that what you're saying?
They are already toying with the false doctrine of Christ that makes their previous believing in vain. If they persist in their denial of Christ and refuse Paul's warning they will in turn be denied by Christ.
God's grace is still God's grace whether we receive it and stay in it, or not. That kind of goes without saying. The question is who will receive and retain that grace and overcome to the very end and be saved.
The unmerciful servant would beg to differ with you:
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
26"...the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him,saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 "...the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
32 "...his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 'Should you not also have had mercy on yourfellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 "And his lord, moved with anger,handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
(Matthew 18:23,26-27,32-35 NASB)
Jesus said the kingdom can be compared to this parable. In it the servant, who owes the debt he can not repay, begs the king for patience. The king has compassion on the servant and forgives the servant's debt. In this parable it is incumbent on the servant to have the same mercy on his fellow servants that he himself has received. When he doesn't the king rescinds the forgiveness he really had given to the servant, reinstating the debt he owed. All this, Jesus said, can be compared to how it is in the kingdom of God, Jesus even plainly saying this is what the Father will do to each one of us if we also show contempt for the debt we have been forgiven by not offering that same forgiveness to others.
So we see that God does indeed forgive people who he knows will receive that forgiveness in vain and lose that forgiveness. It's impossible to make the OSAS argument that he was never truly forgiven to start with. And it's impossible to make the OSAS argument that you can not have your forgiveness taken away. Boom! Three OSAS beliefs defeated in one teaching of Christ.
The mistake you make is to equate not knowing God with not being forgiven. Again I make reference to the unmerciful servant. He really was truly forgiven, but we see he did not 'know' God's love intimately in the forgiveness of his debt. We know that because he told the king he would repay the debt...and he did not reciprocate that love to others (ref. 1 John). Yet, despite him not 'knowing' the full mercy of what the king had done, it's clear that the king did really forgive his debt...and it's equally clear that the king then took it back.
Perhaps you make the mistake of thinking that those who deny Christ, and who are then in turn denied by him, somehow are still 'Christians', or sheep of God that he somehow has an obligation to continue to include them in Christ on that basis. No, they lost that privilege. He is not guilty of leaving his behind, because they are no longer his that he can not leave them behind.
I think the point Paul is making is the Godhead will be all in all. Read the passage with that in mind and you'll see it fits. The Father and Christ all in all. And we in Christ, that is those who overcame, and endured to the end ("If we endure we will also reign with him...").
...to all who believe, and continue to believe to the end, being overcomers. Amen, amen, and amen.
Faith is the victory, not our lack of faith. Lose your faith and you lose what gives you the victory.
The whole counsel of God, chessman, the whole counsel of God!
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chessman
Member
Can you highlight, underline and change the font to red in the 1 Cor 15 passage (the one we are supposedly evaluating) where Paul says “threat” or “warning”, please? I couldn’t find it.
What I found when I tested whether their “vain belief” was a future/potential event of what might happen to them (as you claim) was that you were (and are still) wrong. Paul literally wrote the whole church a letter whereby he said that some there had “believed in vain”, past tense and were "unbelievers". You know, in the … portion of his counsel that you ellipse out. “… unless you believed in vain”. If Paul meant this as a “warning” or a “threat” he failed to say so.
Here would be an example of my point and how you’ve supposedly ‘addressed’ the Holy Spirit’s value toward a Christian remaining a Christian (that is, ignored it):
Umm, excuse me but where’s the 3rd person of the Godhead in your analysis of 1 Cor 15 and what Paul thinks of OSAS?
Eph 1:3…14 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing …your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
Look. This is the root of the OSAS versus non-OSAS issue, to me; I think the Holy Spirit is our seal and or guarantee of salvation. That happens, not in the future, but rather “When you believed” Do you? If not, why not?
2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (ESV)
And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.That’s why I think OSAS makes sense (not to mention I find zero, NADA conflicting passages that says otherwise. Including the 1 Cor 15:1-2, etc. passage).
I would normally totally agree with you that it makes a good bit of common sense to think that a person could stop believing and thusly become “unsaved”. If we look at the world around us, that makes sense. However, if we look at God’s Word (the whole counsel of it), God seems to be telling us that it is God (not man) that establishes us in Christ. I tend to believe Him. Fortunately, I don’t have a conflict with 1 Cor 15:1-2 with my view of what Paul said there. However, you do if you think (and keep saying over and over) that there were once Godly established believers there that became “vain believers”. My view is there were some there that held a saving belief and unfortunately some that held (past tense) a “vain belief”. Poof, no conflict for me.
Oh, I understand it. I just don’t buy it.
Once again. “you believed in vain” is past tense, not future tensed. You can repeat your assertion over and over again 1,000 times that it’s a warning about future events until you begin to believe it, if you wish. You cannot change what Paul said, however.
Your view would not only make their believing ‘vain’ (metaphorically speaking and still in the future) but would make God’s grace (un-metaphorical and already given to them) vain as well!
Yep. Excellent question. Think about its answer. Saved people “are saved” because they took their stand and held fast (alongside God’s Grace and help within them, then AND in the future, of course). when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Paul doesn’t say they “might be saved” in the future people he says they are saved. Whereas those that were (not might be) vain believers or not saved people.
I don’t care what the ‘unmerciful servant’ thinks. And I’m certainly not interested in your interpretation of what the ‘unmerciful servant’ might think. I’m evaluating what Paul (and Jesus) has to say about salvation to us Holy Spirit indwelt believers. It’s off topic as to what Jesus told a bunch of non-believers using parabolic language specifically because He didn’t want them to be saved simply by hearing His salvific word.
I know, you like hanging out in the parables and telling people what they mean. Since the thread is about salvation, what do you think Paul means by;
your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory
means?The whole counsel of God, includes the seal of the Holy Spirit when you believed, Jethro!
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Jethro Bodine
Member
"2 ...by which also you are saved (that is the gospel word), if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
The condition for being saved by the gospel Paul preached to them is that they hold fast what was preached to them.
What you have to do is show how this condition, shown to us in plain words, is made null and void by something. I've been asking this for days now. But I can let it go if you don't want to address it. This is a voluntary forum. No gun being held to your head. But it surely won't help your case any to leave it not addressed.
It's what will happen to them if they don't repent of what has made their believing useless that is still future. The judgment hasn't happened yet. But don't misunderstand, they are surely believing in a Christ now that nullifies the value of their believing at the Judgment that they did before. That is if they persist in it. And since Paul is even speaking to them it's obvious that God has not turned them over to their Christ that can not save...yet. But the believing they did is surely in vain in regard to the Day of Judgment as long as they persist in this different Christ they are embracing.
Where are you getting out of what I'm saying that I believe that the believing they did in the real Christ Paul preached to them is not what has been in vain? The only way they can not have their believing in the real Christ not be in vain in regard to the Judgment to come anymore is to repent of it and come back to the Christ they first believed in.
And the "unless you believed in vain" part doesn't change what Paul just told them--that the condition for being saved by the gospel he preached to them is that they hold fast in that gospel. See, you haven't shown how "unless you believed in vain" has any bearing on the condition that they must hold fast that which they first heard in order for that which they first heard to save them. That's why it can be 'ellipsed out' as you say. It has no bearing on the 'if' of salvation. Understand?
chessman
Member
You been into the medicine jug? None of the words you highlighted are “threat” or “warning”.
Are you through responding to my post? I want to make sure I don’t accuse you falsely or anything of failing once again to answer the question about what your view is of the role of the Holy Spirit’s seal and guarantee within this topic of salvation. So I’ll just request your answer once again.
I did. (twice) Your response was that “it’s too long to read”:
Initial conditions:
P = US [i.e. All persons are UnSaved, v 1:18]
IF (You hold fast to G) THEN
P = S [you become Saved by holding fast to G, see v15:1-2]
ELSE (unless) [you HAD vain belief and remain in your sins (see v17]
ENDIF
It’s clear, however, you do not really know what a “conditional statement” means or ELSE you do and just want to ignore it. Paul’s logic is indeed a conditional statement which is why he wrote a letter to a chruch with the condition that there were unbelievers there holding their “vain belief” and some there "holding fast" in their salvific belief state.
In a logical “conditional statement” there are two states possible as it was there in Corinth. You then apply a conditional test deciding which state to assign to the variable based on the test. True/False, One/Zero, On/Off, Right/Wrong, WithMe/AgainstMe, Saved/UnSaved, etc.
you mean kind-of like how obvious it is that Christ speaking to Satan in the desert was a “warning” and a “threat” to him to change his belief into a salvific belief? That obvious?
Okay. Finally something we can agree on. But I’m wondering, just how long can they persist in their belief in this different Christ before they become unsaved, on your view? That is, if the ones that fail the conditional test Paul lays out were somehow saved (which hasn’t been shown) while in their vain belief state (yet saved anyway, somehow or the other). Care to hazard a guess at just how long they have? How long of a grace period does God give them? And is this the same god that earlier you said doesn’t give second chances to come back to from a fallen state?
Yes, I did show it.
And yes, I understand that you don’t understand how logic works.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I can't believe for 24 hrs? I've been doing it, with God's help, for 28 years.
I pointed out to Kidron that it was good that he did not include 'believing' in his list of things that you didn't do, and can't do, to be saved'.
With God's help we believe and are saved. With God's help we continue to believe and continue to be saved. Just because it doesn't happen without God's help doesn't mean we don't do the believing. I still have not had anyone explain to me how God does my believing for me. How does that work?
I pointed out to Kidron that it was good that he did not include 'believing' in his list of things that you didn't do, and can't do, to be saved'.
With God's help we believe and are saved. With God's help we continue to believe and continue to be saved. Just because it doesn't happen without God's help doesn't mean we don't do the believing. I still have not had anyone explain to me how God does my believing for me. How does that work?