The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[Jethro Bodine]

You simply cannot argue rightly from Paul's words and avoid the fact that he said "believed in vain" using the past tense of the verb for belief.

I guess you need to argue that with someone who says he's not referring to past believing. 'Cause it sure ain't me.

The correct believing they did before (Paul says it was correct--but you wonder if it was) is now made void by adopting another gospel--one that can not save. The question is, are they going to stick with this false gospel and leave behind the believing they have to their credit in the real gospel Paul preached to them.

Your view has him questioning a non-vain believer's future belief. Which couldn't be further from the truth. Paul gives assurances of the future. Based on belief, sure. But in the case of 1 Cor 15:1-2 he IS speaking of their past belief.

Yes, belief that is made null and void and now in vain by adopting a resurrection-less gospel that can not save. But since the Judgment has not occurred yet, and God has obviously not turned them over to this different gospel that cannot save, there's still the chance that the believing they did will remain credited to them as righteousness.

Quote me one published reformed theologian that teaches this. It's ALWAYS the non-OSAS person that says this about the OSAS doctrine in my study. Thus, they either; 1) don't understand OSAS or (unless they do understand it) 2) are intentionally misrepresenting it.

I don't study the theologians, so I can't help you there. But all you have to do is get a cup of coffee and start reading this thread from the beginning and make note of where OSAS believers defend that you don't need to believe to the end to be saved. If this is not really part of official OSAS doctrine then it must be the OSAS adherents themselves who are misrepresenting OSAS.

For the same reason He commands believers to pray always (without ceasing) knowing full well they must sleep at night. It B the best thing for them to strive to both pray and believe always.

But this does not explain the punishments connected to the warnings to not stop believing. OSAS in effect says the warnings are theoretical and need not be feared because they can't 'really' happen to you, only to those who never 'really' believed. Which I find interesting because the Bible says these fake believers can never become real believers.

Which is way the whole counsel of God says the HS is not just a Seal but a Seal and a Guarantee. A Godly Seal and Guarantee at that. A seal/guarantee that an earthly king only wishes he possessed. God's Seal is guaranteed to secure things that are in it. That's the point of the passage.

Surely, but how does that mean we can ignore the other counsel of scripture that says the condition for this seal and guarantee is to keep believing? OSAS defines seal and guarantee without consideration of the whole counsel of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He's giving them a test. A conditional test that proves they either believed in vain(past tense) or didn't.

I agree completely.

He's saying, "you are saved, unless you believed in vain" by now adopting a gospel that can not save. A gospel which makes the believing you did do in vain.

I showed you it's impossible to interpret "unless you believed in vain" the way you are. It completely contradicts what Paul asserts himself several times in the passage that they did NOT believe in vain from the beginning.

 

[chessman]

The question is, are they going to stick with this false gospel and leave behind the believing they have to their credit in the real gospel Paul preached to them.

Wow??? Paul says none of that in 1 Cor 15:1-2, etc. except the part where he preached the real Gospel to them.

Yes, belief that is made null and void and now in vain by adopting a resurrection-less gospel that can not save.
...
the Bible says these fake believers can never become real believers.

So which is it; were they saved while they were holding a vain belief in a false gospel or not?
You are the one that's saying they are saved while holding to a false gospel, then turn right around and make fun of that idea as if it comes from a OSAS theologian (who by the way, you've never read to find out what they teach). I say there were people in Corinth that were NOT saved.

It's not me that thinks people that are believing in a false gospel are saved, it's you. Why?

If this is not really part of official OSAS doctrine then it must be the OSAS adherents themselves who are misrepresenting OSAS.

it's not part of the OSAS doctrine that saved people are saved while believing a false gospel. You are the only one saying it is. Evidently because you think that's the case as evidenced by what you are saying Paul told these Corinthians. Paul certainly didn't say it (a false gospel saves) in 1 Cor 15, or anywhere else.

Plus, if you've not read OSAS theologians, as you say you've not, then why do you constantly post to readers here what OSAS teaches? Could you be making up this OSAS doctrine you like to make fun of? That's what it looks like you're doing.

OSAS defines seal and guarantee without consideration of the whole counsel of God.
...
I don't study the theologians,

then stop making up what defines OSAS doctrines. Let OSAS people speak for themselves on what OSAS teaches. You don't understand it by your own admission of not reading the theologians that study it.

You got any idea how silly it sounds for you to say doctrine X teaches Y, then turn right around and admit you don't read doctrine X theologians?

how does that mean we can ignore the other counsel of scripture that says the condition for this seal and guarantee is to keep believing?

OSAS doesn't ignore that a person must keep believing to be saved. You are though, by thinking that the vain, false gospel believers there in Corinth were saved in-spite of the fact that you now admit, that they held to a false gospel. All so you can use 1 Cor 15:1-2 as an anti-OSAS passage.

(Even though you don't actually read OSAS doctrines or long posts about it)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow??? Paul says none of that in 1 Cor 15:1-2, etc. except the part where he preached the real Gospel to them.

So which is it; were they saved while they were holding a vain belief in a false gospel or not?
You are the one that's saying they are saved while holding to a false gospel, then turn right around and make fun of that idea as if it comes from a OSAS theologian (who by the way, you've never read to find out what they teach). I say there were people in Corinth that were NOT saved.

It's not me that thinks people that are believing in a false gospel are saved, it's you. Why?

it's not part of the OSAS doctrine that saved people are saved while believing a false gospel. You are the only one saying it is. Evidently because you think that's the case as evidenced by what you are saying Paul told these Corinthians. Paul certainly didn't say it (a false gospel saves) in 1 Cor 15, or anywhere else.

Plus, if you've not read OSAS theologians, as you say you've not, then why do you constantly post to readers here what OSAS teaches? Could you be making up this OSAS doctrine you like to make fun of? That's what it looks like you're doing.

then stop making up what defines OSAS doctrines. Let OSAS people speak for themselves on what OSAS teaches. You don't understand it by your own admission of not reading the theologians that study it.

You got any idea how silly it sounds for you to say doctrine X teaches Y, then turn right around and admit you don't read doctrine X theologians?

OSAS doesn't ignore that a person must keep believing to be saved. You are though, by thinking that the vain, false gospel believers there in Corinth were saved in-spite of the fact that you now admit, that they held to a false gospel. All so you can use 1 Cor 15:1-2 as an anti-OSAS passage.

(Even though you don't actually read OSAS doctrines or long posts about it)

Dude, you're really reaching this time.

 

[chessman]

Dude, you're really reaching this time.

Back at you.

1) Yes or no; Do you think Paul said there were saved people in Corinth that did NOT believe in his Gospel or not?

2) Yes or no; Do you understand OSAS doctrine enough to state what its adherents teach from Scripture(s) or not?

WRT question 1) you say in one breath:

he is telling them they have embraced another Christ that can not save.

yet in the next breath say:

he is addressing saved people in this congregation.

WRT question 2) you say:

OSAS will argue that you are still saved if you lose your faith.

then when challenged to quote one OSAS theologian that says this, you say:

I don't study the theologians, so I can't help you there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1) Yes or no; Do you think Paul said there were saved people in Corinth that did NOT believe in his Gospel or not?

When?

When he first preached his gospel to them, or when they started sinning in regard to a resurrection-less gospel?

We know they were saved when he first preached to them. He plainly reminds them of that. That's not even up for debate (but you insist it is).

Where exactly are they at in regard to this later gospel they are being influenced by? Well, we know God hasn't turned they over to it without hope of repentance, yet. That's why Paul is warning them to stop sinning in regard to this different gospel that can not save. We just know that if they stick with it they can not be saved by it, and any believing they had previously done in the correct gospel will remain in vain.

2) Yes or no; Do you understand OSAS doctrine enough to state what its adherents teach from Scripture(s) or not?

I can share the various arguments that OSAS defendants have leveled in on-line forums over the years.

WRT question 1) you say in one breath: yet in the next breath say:
...then when challenged to quote one OSAS theologian that says this, you say:

Okay, you tell me, then... are people in on-line forums accurately stating the OSAS argument? If yes, I don't need to look any further than what they say--I have an accurate understanding of OSAS. If no, then point out the inaccurate information that is being shared by OSAS adherents on line and I will correct those inaccurate OSAS teachings in the future when I encounter them in debate.

 

[Deborah13]

When?

When he first preached his gospel to them, or when they started sinning in regard to a resurrection-less gospel?

We know they were saved when he first preached to them. He plainly reminds them of that. That's not even up for debate (but you insist it is).

Where exactly are they at in regard to this later gospel they are being influenced by? Well, we know God hasn't turned they over to it without hope of repentance, yet. That's why Paul is warning them to stop sinning in regard to this different gospel that can not save. We just know that if they stick with it they can not be saved by it, and any believing they had previously done in the correct gospel will remain in vain.



I can share the various arguments that OSAS defendants have leveled in on-line forums over the years.



Okay, you tell me, then... are people in on-line forums accurately stating the OSAS argument? If yes, I don't need to look any further than what they say--I have an accurate understanding of OSAS. If no, then point out the inaccurate information that is being shared by OSAS adherents on line and I will correct those inaccurate OSAS teachings in the future when I encounter them in debate.

How can you debate something you have studied? If you haven't read the doctrine of the original Reformers who taught it how can you say what it teaches?
What you are relying on is what people hundreds of years later are teaching it says. Some of them are correct but others are not.

 

[chessman]

Yes or no; Do you think Paul said there were saved people in Corinth that did NOT believe in his Gospel or not?

When?

Ever.
You pick a time when you think that a person can believe in a false gospel and yet be considered saved. Then show me what Scripture of Paul's leads you to that conclusion.

you tell me, then... are people in on-line forums accurately stating the OSAS argument?

Some are, but my point was/is that You aren't.

OSAS has never and will never be a doctrine that teaches false believers are saved in-spite of their false believing. Answer my question above with a yes, and YOU will be the one teaching it not us(as you know full well you have already).

Paul is warning them to stop sinning in regard to this different gospel that can not save.

Hmm? "Stop sinning in regard to this different gospel". Is that an evasive way of answering yes to my question and thus admitting that it's you that's thinking they were believing in a false gospel yet were saved in-spite of what they were believing in?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ever.
You pick a time when you think that a person can believe in a false gospel and yet be considered saved.

They're only saved in the sense that God has not turned them over to their false belief yet.

Then show me what Scripture of Paul's leads you to that conclusion.

"34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning..." (1 Corinthians 15:34 NASB)

Obviously, the door is still open for them to repent and rescue the believing they did have to their account in the correct Christ from having been done in vain. Judgment has not been passed on them yet; the judgment for willfully continuing in sin after receiving the truth:

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance..." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

OSAS has never and will never be a doctrine that teaches false believers are saved in-spite of their false believing. Answer my question above with a yes, and YOU will be the one teaching it not us(as you know full well you have already).

No, there will not be any Christ rejecting unbelievers in the kingdom of God after the Judgment. I'm not teaching that there will be.

Hmm? "Stop sinning in regard to this different gospel". Is that an evasive way of answering yes to my question and thus admitting that it's you that's thinking they were believing in a false gospel yet were saved in-spite of what they were believing in?

Like I told Deborah, we don't know to what extent they embraced this false teaching about the resurrection. We just know God had not disowned them yet. How do we know that? God is warning them through Paul to 'stop sinning' about the matter. But to think that means they will be saved on the Day of Wrath despite their false gospel is not what the argument means. It's like how God speaks to the churches in Revelation. For example:

"3'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." (Revelation 3:3 NASB)

Obviously, these people still belong to God. But if they do not repent they will not be saved at the return of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can you debate something you have studied? If you haven't read the doctrine of the original Reformers who taught it how can you say what it teaches?
What you are relying on is what people hundreds of years later are teaching it says. Some of them are correct but others are not.

Deborah, I've been reading the Bible for years. I've been looking at the real thing for years. That makes it easy to spot false doctrine when it pops up, or at least sense a check in my spirit when I encounter it.

I don't care if it's a tidbit of an official, organized religious sect, or just somebody's personal beliefs. I don't need to study each and everybody's opinion about doctrinal matters to know if they are suspect or not. Do you understand what I'm saying? Knowing the 'official' doctrine of a movement in the church isn't how you know the truth. Reading the Bible is how you know the truth. You don't have to know about all doctrines everywhere in the church to know the truth.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, I've been reading the Bible for years. I've been looking at the real thing for years. That makes it easy to spot false doctrine when it pops up, or at least sense a check in my spirit when I encounter it.

I don't care if it's a tidbit of an official, organized religious sect, or just somebody's personal beliefs. I don't need to study each and everybody's opinion about doctrinal matters to know if they are suspect or not. Do you understand what I'm saying? Knowing the 'official' doctrine of a movement in the church isn't how you know the truth. Reading the Bible is how you know the truth. You don't have to know about all doctrines everywhere in the church to know the truth.

I agree, but we can't tell other people what they Do believe about certain doctrine when we don't know what that doctrine says.
I remember hearing things like cheap grace. That certainly is not the doctrine of a Calvinist. Neither is it the doctrine of some other grace preachers who are not Calvinists. But both are OSAS.
Although, imo, these discussions are looking better than some others did awhile back. There were times when perseverance of the saints was never mentioned at all.
At least the arguments sound much more like this.....Wesley to Whitfield. Aug. 1740
My dear Brother,

I thank you for yours, May the 24th. The case is quite plain. There are bigots both for predestination and against it. God is sending a message to those on either side. But neither will receive it, unless from one who is of their own opinion. Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind. Then persecution will flame out, and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves, so that we may finish our course with joy. I am, my dearest brother,

Ever yours,

J. WESLEY

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm

 

[chessman]

"34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning..." (1 Corinthians 15:34 NASB)

Obviously, ...

Obviously you're doing it (...) again (on purpose ?). That's no more what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:34 than a pound cake is a cake without butter.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Sober up correctly and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame. ​

Obviously, as I've said (because Paul does here and in verse 2 and ELSEwhere), there are some unsaved people there in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived! “Bad company corrupts good morals.” ​

Obviously, these people still belong to God. But if they do not repent they will not be saved at the return of Christ.

Obviously God disciplines the ones He loves in Sardis, Laodicea, Corinth and Beverly Hills and everywhere ELSE. Why? Cause He loves them! And God doesn't lie. If He loves them, knows them as a son of God, UNLESS He knows them as the Devil's son, He's there with His Holy Spirit to Seal you into His family with His Guarantee.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Obviously you're doing it (...) again (on purpose ?). That's no more what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:34 than a pound cake is a cake without butter.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Sober up correctly and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame. ​

Obviously, as I've said (because Paul does here and in verse 2 and ELSEwhere), there are some unsaved people there in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived! “Bad company corrupts good morals.” ​

Obviously, the message that the church is being led astray by came through somebody. The warning to have believed in vain in the real gospel is to whoever caves into it.

Obviously God disciplines the ones He loves in Sardis, Laodicea, Corinth and Beverly Hills and everywhere ELSE. Why? Cause He loves them! And God doesn't lie. If He loves them, knows them as a son of God, UNLESS He knows them as the Devil's son, He's there with His Holy Spirit to Seal you into His family with His Guarantee.

Christ not taking you to be with him when he returns is not his loving discipline. After a former believer gets disowned they will suffer the same fate as the hypocrite and the unbeliever. They are no longer a believer that somehow God will give them the grace that belongs to believers.

"...'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' "

(Revelation 3:1-6 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree, but we can't tell other people what they Do believe about certain doctrine when we don't know what that doctrine says.
I remember hearing things like cheap grace. That certainly is not the doctrine of a Calvinist. Neither is it the doctrine of some other grace preachers who are not Calvinists. But both are OSAS.
Although, imo, these discussions are looking better than some others did awhile back. There were times when perseverance of the saints was never mentioned at all.
At least the arguments sound much more like this.....Wesley to Whitfield. Aug. 1740
My dear Brother,

I thank you for yours, May the 24th. The case is quite plain. There are bigots both for predestination and against it. God is sending a message to those on either side. But neither will receive it, unless from one who is of their own opinion. Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind. Then persecution will flame out, and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves, so that we may finish our course with joy. I am, my dearest brother,

Ever yours,

J. WESLEY

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm

Deborah, it doesn't matter if someone is speaking accurately on behalf of some supposed official doctrine of some religious sect or not. If they speak error it will be challenged. It would be impossible to understand and carefully categorize all the differing opinions within any one belief. You'll die young if you try to make sure nobody misunderstands the exact boundaries of what doctrine you defend. I learned that a long time ago.

 

[chessman]

If they speak error it will be challenged.

Right.

Your doctrine misuses grace and turns it into a license to sin.

Wrong.

But your doctrine does two wrong things: 1) It doesn't differentiate between sinning in the weaknesses of growing up into Christ--all the while depending on the forgiveness of Christ to cover that sin--and the sinning of willfully forsaking Christ altogether and turning your back on the forgiveness of Christ.

Wrong.

But your doctrine does two wrong things: 2) you won't acknowledge (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling. Obadiah.)

Wrong.

 

[reba]

Thanks guys this is the most 'friendly' this battle has been in a while... too you all

 

[Gregg]

You are correct Chessman. We who advocate OSAS do not perceive any license to sin because of grace, or because of our having eternal life.

We are now free to worship God in Christ. We are free to practice righteousness, and to not sin. When we do sin, we are disciplined by a loving Father; but we are never disowned or disinherited by Him.

 

[WIP]

You are correct Chessman. We who advocate OSAS do not perceive any license to sin because of grace, or because of our having eternal life.

We are now free to worship God in Christ. We are free to practice righteousness, and to not sin. When we do sin, we are disciplined by a loving Father; but we are never disowned or disinherited by Him.

Just a question to help me clarify. What if after being disciplined, I still refused to repent from said sin? Is this where I would respond that it would not be possible for me not to repent unless I was not saved in the first place?

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, and argues that's it will always be 100% successful. The end result being a believer can never lose his faith. But then OSAS will argue that you are still saved if you lose your faith. This is the duplicity of the OSAS that I've been pointing out. I think it important that OSAS make up it's mind about whether a believer can lose their faith or not. Then they can explain why God has given so many baseless, theoretical, false warnings to believers to not stop believing.

There are many believers who lose their faith, walk away or just give up. They are still saved though. Can our unfaithfulness or unbelief nullify Gods faithfulness to a saved person? No.

It is a fact that God said, " If we believe in His Son He will save us." Can He Lie? No.

Rom 3:3-4~~
What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,

2 Tim 2:13~~13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

The warnings are not baseless,theoretical or false. They carry dire consequences for the believer. Some being the Rod, Loss of reign and rank,loss of crowns,loss of rewards, SHAME at the judgement seat of Christ(the worst one IMO),sin unto death for the reversionistic believer. A Godly and spiritual understanding of Grace, will let the believer KNOW that salvation can not be lost, that is why it is called Grace.

God wants us to live in our secure position in Christ. A believer cannot live in that position thinking that we have to keep ourselves saved from the condition we are in. The moment we believed on the Son God saved us from our condition(nothing good or righteous) and made us a righteous new creation in Christ.....our position in Christ. It is part of the mystery doctrine revealed to Paul.

 

[follower]

icon, iconnot, icon, iconnot,.... .... jumping in with both feet ----

only and simply concerning "believes in vain"

does not to me need to mean that one believes a false gospel in vain (without benefit),

but obviously (to me) may (and does perhaps) mean simply believes IN VAIN (mental assent or other believing without power) ----

as in simply believes the true gospel, the true message of Yeshua, the message of salvation even,
but in vain ---- like it is written even the demons believe, and shudder, (because believing they know they are condemned and cannot be saved) ,

while for people they may believe the truth, like the Israelites did, but not walk therein (whether willfully disobeying even though they know and believe just like the demons certainly know and believe, or for any other purpose/method/way/reason/ they simply won't benefit from believing the truth because they "deny the power thereof" , or "fear man instead of Yhwh", or are among those to whom Yeshua proclaims on Judgment day "begone from Me , I (the Savior Lord Master Messiah Son of God, Son of Man('God' to the Jews) )
never knew you.

aye, a great many warnings to believers and to those hanging around believers ... ... take heed and "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
because some (one set of) multitudes find out on Judgment Day that they didn't make it, right from the Master King Sovereign Creator Yeshua Himself.

and they 'apparently' didn't know or refused to acknowledge (willingly, self will, wittingly? don't know) or even (after being given over to believe their own delusions)
they could not believe with faith and benefit, having sinned the sin, or a sin, that leads to death... ... ...

i.e. on Judgment Day both sides are SURPRISED! and then those destined for the lake of fire are tossed in without any excuse or recourse or any more chance,
and then those destined for Salvation and Eternal Life Enter Into the Kingdom of Yhwh.

they all read the same bible. they all had the same translations. they all said "Jesus is Lord".

but some were true, and some were fakes. some were alive, and some were dead and remained dead.

there are many more 'clues', or tests if the reader prefers, in Scripture, yet all rely on the Providence, Judgment, Justice, Love and Mercy of Yhwh the Creator and His Decree...

Abba Yhwh's eternal shalom(life and peace and health and joy and righteousness) in Yeshua to all who abide in Him and love the truth wholly, completely and without reserve (with total abandon to Him).... ... ...

the phone just rang, gotta go..... bbl if Yhwh permits !