The Reception of the Holy Spirit

[for_his_glory]

The thief on the cross was not baptized.

Then that should show you one does not need immersed in water to receive Jesus as he only believed and Jesus told him that that day he would be with Him in paradise. No dirty river water is going to save anyone and is not found in scripture that says it does.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then that should show you one does not need immersed in water to receive Jesus as he only believed and Jesus told him that that day he would be with Him in paradise. No dirty river water is going to save anyone and is not found in scripture that says it does.

I don't believe it's the actual baptism that saves because otherwise every Catholic would be saved (and they know this too)...It's faith in Jesus that saves.

But Jesus did command to be baptized.
Are you saying that it doesn't save or are you saying that it's not necessary?

IOW, I do believe being baptized is necessary.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't believe it's the actual baptism that saves because otherwise every Catholic would be saved (and they know this too)...It's faith in Jesus that saves.

But Jesus did command to be baptized.
Are you saying that it doesn't save or are you saying that it's not necessary?

IOW, I do believe being baptized is necessary.

I'm talking about the baptism of John that was and outward appearance that one repented of their sins as in prepare ye the way of the Lord as in John's baptism of being immersed in water is likened as being made clean again before he baptized Christ as Christ nor the Holy Spirit were made ready yet.

The baptism of Christ on the day of Pentecost is for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit after one hears the word preached to them as their heart is pricked as they confess Jesus as Lord and Savior and then the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm talking about the baptism of John that was and outward appearance that one repented of their sins as in prepare ye the way of the Lord as in John's baptism of being immersed in water is likened as being made clean again before he baptized Christ as Christ nor the Holy Spirit were made ready yet.

The baptism of Christ on the day of Pentecost is for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit after one hears the word preached to them as their heart is pricked as they confess Jesus as Lord and Savior and then the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Right.
But do you believe it's necessary to be baptized in water?

 

[for_his_glory]

Right.
But do you believe it's necessary to be baptized in water?

No, because water does nothing Spiritual for us.

Actually I've been baptized in water three times. Once being sprinkled as an infant, another time by full immersion and felt nothing but wet, and the third time the same thing, nothing but getting wet. There was no outpouring of the Holy Spirit as I already received when I was Spiritually born again. I only went full immersion in water because I was told I could not go to heaven if I did not do that.

There is nothing wrong with full immersion in water, but it is only an outward appearance that you have already confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, because water does nothing Spiritual for us.

Actually I've been baptized in water three times. Once being sprinkled as an infant, another time by full immersion and felt nothing but wet, and the third time the same thing, nothing but getting wet. There was no outpouring of the Holy Spirit as I already received when I was Spiritually born again. I only went full immersion in water because I was told I could not go to heaven if I did not do that.

There is nothing wrong with full immersion in water, but it is only an outward appearance that you have already confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I believe it's a necessary thing to do.
I try to obey what Jesus stated...many failings to say the least.
He left us with a lot to do, the Beatitudes always come to mind.

He said that the Apostles were to baptize us.
From studying church history, I know that the early church baptized for the forgiveness of sin.
I must say that I don't totally understand this, I don't understand how baptism cleanses us of sin.

But Jesus said to do it,
so I have to believe that it's NECESSARY.

Also, one baptism is enough. It's not a magic trick.
And I don't know that a person is supposed to feel anything.
I do wish I understood it more.


“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’”
(The Shepherd4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Hermas

“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]”
(Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Irenaeus, taught by Polycarp, taught by John

 

[for_his_glory]

I might have already posted this within the eight pages here, but will post it anyway.

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching what God gave Him to speak and do. It was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3, but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

 

[jaybo]

I don't believe it's the actual baptism that saves because otherwise every Catholic would be saved (and they know this too)...It's faith in Jesus that saves.

But Jesus did command to be baptized.
Are you saying that it doesn't save or are you saying that it's not necessary?

IOW, I do believe being baptized is necessary.

Baptism is advisable as it is a symbolic burying of the old sinful person and the birth of the new spiritual person. I don't believe that it's necessary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptism is advisable as it is a symbolic burying of the old sinful person and the birth of the new spiritual person. I don't believe that it's necessary.

Why did Jesus say to baptize?
Matthew 28:19

 

[jaybo]

Why did Jesus say to baptize?
Matthew 28:19

Baptism means immersion. Matthew 28:19 does not mean water baptism. "Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh" CJB

Jesus did not mean anything here about the ritual of baptizing in water.

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptism means immersion. Matthew 28:19 does not mean water baptism. "Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh" CJB

Jesus did not mean anything here about the ritual of baptizing in water.

Very interesting!
Thanks.

'night...

 

[jaybo]

Very interesting!
Thanks.

'night...

Buona notte.

 

[DJT_47]

And you completely lack an understanding of baptism!

And your "logic" is nuts! You wrote "John's baptism was identical to the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 except John's was still while the old covenant was in effect and would have had to be repeated to continue to wash away from sin upon further sunning." It's identical but different! Alrighty then!

Maybe if you stopped reading the King James translation and started reading a better translation you might begin to gain understanding. But maybe not!

What's your point, just making noise? They are identical with the exception that under John's you couldn't be baptized into Christ or his death since he was yet alive. They are both for the remission of sins and repentance. Acts 19 tells you the Ephesians were rebaptized into Christ once they were made aware since they had only been baptized unto John's baptism. So once again, What's your point because you said nothing.

 

[Hopeful]

No it doesn't, but just the same after Philip preached the word to him, or after the word was preached to any of us, and he/we believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit.

I cannot agree, as it was a few weeks from hearing and believing before I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

As I mentioned, Cornelius was a one time event to show the Jews that God had also accepted the Gentiles.

The Eunuch had Philip preach to him just as Cornelius had Peter preach to him and those of the house that were with him that day. While Peter was preaching to them the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and none of them, like the Eunuch were baptized in water before the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

I cannot agree as there is nothing written of such an event.

Cornelius might have been the first Gentile that Peter preached to that received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the Eunuch who might have been a Gentile converted to Judaism was Philip's first Gentile. All that truly matters is the the outpouring of the Holy Spirit does not come by immersion in water as nowhere in scripture does it say that.

That I can agree with.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is a different event than the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost/baptism of the Holy Spirit.

John's baptism was only for the outward appearance of repentance and not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Christ was for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit after hearing the word preached.

John's baptism unto repentance was..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins," (Luke 1:77)

All I know about the Eunuch was that he was a Jewish proselyte from Ethiopia that converted to Judaism as when he was in the Temple in Jerusalem he went there to worship God, so it really doesn't matter if he was once a Gentile and then converted before he met Philip on the road.

How do you "know that"?

 

[DJT_47]

I don't believe it's the actual baptism that saves because otherwise every Catholic would be saved (and they know this too)...It's faith in Jesus that saves.

But Jesus did command to be baptized.
Are you saying that it doesn't save or are you saying that it's not necessary?

IOW, I do believe being baptized is necessary.

You're a bit wrong in your conclusion that every catholic would be saved, the reason being is that 1. They don't baptize which is immersion. The word baptize is transliterated from the Greek and means to dip, plunge, immerse. They pour water on you which isn't baptism. The Greek word for pour is different and not interchangeable. 2. They do the aforementioned on infants who are not believers. You must first believe and then be baptized. And infants have not committed sin and have no need of baptism.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

 

[Robert Pate]

You're a bit wrong in your conclusion that every catholic would be saved, the reason being is that 1. They don't baptize which is immersion. The word baptize is transliterated from the Greek and means to dip, plunge, immerse. They pour water on you which isn't baptism. The Greek word for pour is different and not interchangeable. 2. They do the aforementioned on infants who are not believers. You must first believe and then be baptized. And infants have not committed sin and have no need of baptism.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

Baptism is something that we do. It is a work of the law. We are not saved by what we do, we are saved by what Jesus did. Paul said, "By the works of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20.

 

[jaybo]

What's your point, just making noise? They are identical with the exception that under John's you couldn't be baptized into Christ or his death since he was yet alive. They are both for the remission of sins and repentance. Acts 19 tells you the Ephesians were rebaptized into Christ once they were made aware since they had only been baptized unto John's baptism. So once again, What's your point because you said nothing.

If you don't understand what I wrote, that's not my problem, it's yours.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're a bit wrong in your conclusion that every catholic would be saved, the reason being is that 1. They don't baptize which is immersion. The word baptize is transliterated from the Greek and means to dip, plunge, immerse. They pour water on you which isn't baptism. The Greek word for pour is different and not interchangeable. 2. They do the aforementioned on infants who are not believers. You must first believe and then be baptized. And infants have not committed sin and have no need of baptism.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

I didn't say every catholic would be saved.
I said the opposite.

As to being dipped...

I'm sure you must know that water is very precious in some areas of the world.
Pouring water on the body/head is just fine.
It's the FORM that counts.
In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God understands about these things.

 

[DJT_47]

I didn't say every catholic would be saved.
I said the opposite.

As to being dipped...

I'm sure you must know that water is very precious in some areas of the world.
Pouring water on the body/head is just fine.
It's the FORM that counts.
In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God understands about these things.

Baptism is exactly that. It means what it means and man's logic, such as predicated upon the scarcity of water, or the "form that counts" is what's important, is also exactly that: man's logic. God has provided sufficient warnings and examples of what happens when his word is ignored or substituted with man's good intentions such as was the case when the ark was tipping and was touched as God said not to do. The individuals that touched the ark against God's will were destroyed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptism is exactly that. It means what it means and man's logic, such as predicated upon the scarcity of water, or the "form that counts" is what's important, is also exactly that: man's logic. God has provided sufficient warnings and examples of what happens when his word is ignored or substituted with man's good intentions such as was the case when the ark was tipping and was touched as God said not to do. The individuals that touched the ark against God's will were destroyed.

Don't see anybody being destroyed that was poured instead of dipped.

Man deserves hell, but has given you a way out.

Maybe we should be immersed, but I think I said that He's a very understanding God.

Perhaps you don't agree.
Perhaps you're a full-fledged Pharisee.