The Reception of the Holy Spirit

[Cooper]

All that water baptism is going to do for you is get you wet. Paul said, "By the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20. I am afraid that you are going to be in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we" group, Matthew 7:21-23.

Nothing to do with the law, I was following the example set by Jesus, and in addition I was making a public declaration of my faith. Walking home, I felt elated, and from then on, I became firmer in my faith. Something had happened.
.

 

[Vinny37]

John 3:1-15 was a conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus who was a Pharisee brought up under the law, but knew not the Spiritual things Jesus was trying to explain to him about being born again as Nicodemus replied: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus continues to explain what the Spiritual birth is. This was a serious question Nicodemus asked and not a joke or in a joking manner to make fun of Jesus.

I've never heard of these various versions of the Bible you listed and looked them up as mostly being used by the Catholic Church. I looked up the CJB and is a Messianic Jewish Bible that incorporates Hebrew and Yiddish expressions written in the Jewish English language

You can rate any Bible you want to, but it's only your opinion which one is the best. I use the KJV and find it to be enough for me.

I think you miss the mutual humour between Jesus and Nicodemus, concurrent with their mutual respect. Nicodemus did seek serious things from, like himself, a serious teacher, but both could smile: serious dialogue can enjoy humour within. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it. I’ll move on.

There is no Catholic Church (or any other ‘Church’), for Catholicism is merely a network, a denomination, within the church, so having churches (Mt.16:18). The versions I listed are not RC versions, though I hope are used by Catholics and indeed by Christians at large. Without serious history to back up conspiracy theories, too many slag off Bible versions as ‘Catholic’ because 1# they don’t like non-KJVs (or at least non-TRs), and 2# because they don’t like Catholicism.

On this Jhn.3 interchange, I graded the more ethno-Jewish versions thus: CJB (U-); ISV (C); TLV (B-). I graded the more Roman-Catholic versions thus: NABRE (B); NCB (D+); NJB (C). A mixed bag, whatever my opinion, and even I guess in your opinion. Can ‘opinions’ be graded?

Correcting Wycliffe’s Roman Catholic Vulgate based version, William Tyndale had: “…boren a newe…” The KJV reverted to Wycliffe (…borun ayen…) and the Roman Catholic Rheims’ version (borne againe), a twist perhaps on the ancient Egyptian story of Bata entering into his ex-wife’s womb and being born again. We can disagree about what Jesus actually said (or rather how best to translate it into English), while agreeing that we might both seek to believe what he said.

 

[DJT_47]

You are interpreting the Bible incorrectly in order to justify your doctrine.

It is a public profession of one's faith. Romans 6:4, "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

Your example of the Ethiopian eunuch clearly shows your error. Why do you think he was trying to impress someone (other than God)? Is the purpose of baptism, to you, to show off? Really??? The Ethiopian wanted to be baptized as a statement of his new faith (as in Romans 6:4), not the remission of his sins or the "indwelling of the Holy Ghost"(as you claim). or to be added to the body of Christ.

Here is a clear example of your error. Acts 16:30-31, "Then he brought them outside and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They answered, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Notice that Paul did not require the jailer to be baptized!

You need to align your theology with God's word!

The bible is clear in the absolute need for baptism: To be saved, to remit sins, to become a member of the body of Christ. Nowhere does it say or infer it's for the purpose of demonstration to anyone of anything. That's man made-up nonsense in a feeble attempt to deny the necessity of baptism. Believe what you like.

BAPTISM

Necessity or option?
​

Baptism is required in order to:
· Be saved

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”

1st Peter 3:20/21 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”;

· Wash away/remit sins
· Contact the blood of Christ
· Be added to the Lord’s body which is the church
· Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection
· Get “into” Him, put on Christ, and become a child of God
· Receive blessings in Him

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”.

Acts 2:41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”.

Acts 2:47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.

Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.

1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:

Rev 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood”-----

Heb 10:22 “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water”.

Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.

Steps to becoming a Christian
· (1) Hearing the word/gospel (Rom. 1:16, Mk. 16:15, Rom. 10: 14 thru 17, 1 Cor. 1:21 thru 24, Mat 7:24)
· (2) Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mk. 16:16, Heb. 11:6, John 12:46)
· (3) Confessing this before men (Rom. 10:9, 10, Rom. 10:13, Acts 8:37, Mat 10:32)
· (4) Repenting of your sins (Acts 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5, 14:47)
· (5) Being baptized (immersed in water) for the remission (forgiveness) of your sins after which, you are added to the Church (above referenced). (Acts 2:38-41, 47)

 

[for_his_glory]

I think you miss the mutual humour between Jesus and Nicodemus, concurrent with their mutual respect. Nicodemus did seek serious things from, like himself, a serious teacher, but both could smile: serious dialogue can enjoy humour within. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it. I’ll move on.

There is no Catholic Church (or any other ‘Church’), for Catholicism is merely a network, a denomination, within the church, so having churches (Mt.16:18). The versions I listed are not RC versions, though I hope are used by Catholics and indeed by Christians at large. Without serious history to back up conspiracy theories, too many slag off Bible versions as ‘Catholic’ because 1# they don’t like non-KJVs (or at least non-TRs), and 2# because they don’t like Catholicism.

On this Jhn.3 interchange, I graded the more ethno-Jewish versions thus: CJB (U-); ISV (C); TLV (B-). I graded the more Roman-Catholic versions thus: NABRE (B); NCB (D+); NJB (C). A mixed bag, whatever my opinion, and even I guess in your opinion. Can ‘opinions’ be graded?

Correcting Wycliffe’s Roman Catholic Vulgate based version, William Tyndale had: “…boren a newe…” The KJV reverted to Wycliffe (…borun ayen…) and the Roman Catholic Rheims’ version (borne againe), a twist perhaps on the ancient Egyptian story of Bata entering into his ex-wife’s womb and being born again. We can disagree about what Jesus actually said (or rather how best to translate it into English), while agreeing that we might both seek to believe what he said.

It doesn't matter to me what Bible one uses as even if there was none printed I believe the Holy Spirit would continue to teach us all things of what God spoke verbally and gave to Jesus to teach.

Will move on now.

 

[jaybo]

The bible is clear in the absolute need for baptism: To be saved, to remit sins, to become a member of the body of Christ. Nowhere does it say or infer it's for the purpose of demonstration to anyone of anything. That's man made-up nonsense in a feeble attempt to deny the necessity of baptism. Believe what you like.

BAPTISM

Necessity or option?
​

Baptism is required in order to:
· Be saved

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”

1st Peter 3:20/21 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”;

· Wash away/remit sins
· Contact the blood of Christ
· Be added to the Lord’s body which is the church
· Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection
· Get “into” Him, put on Christ, and become a child of God
· Receive blessings in Him

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”.

Acts 2:41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”.

Acts 2:47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.

Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.

1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:

Rev 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood”-----

Heb 10:22 “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water”.

Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.

Steps to becoming a Christian
· (1) Hearing the word/gospel (Rom. 1:16, Mk. 16:15, Rom. 10: 14 thru 17, 1 Cor. 1:21 thru 24, Mat 7:24)
· (2) Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mk. 16:16, Heb. 11:6, John 12:46)
· (3) Confessing this before men (Rom. 10:9, 10, Rom. 10:13, Acts 8:37, Mat 10:32)
· (4) Repenting of your sins (Acts 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5, 14:47)
· (5) Being baptized (immersed in water) for the remission (forgiveness) of your sins after which, you are added to the Church (above referenced). (Acts 2:38-41, 47)

The bible is not clear in the absolute need for baptism. That exists only in your imagination, not the Bible.

It is not necessary to be saved, or to remit sins, or to become a member of the body of Christ. Those things can only be done by a person, not a ritual.

Nowhere does it say or infer it's for the purpose of demonstration to anyone of anything, except in Romans 6:4 (and elsewhere): "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

Your false claims are man made-up nonsense in a feeble attempt to require the necessity of baptism. It is a ritual to symbolically demonstrate the death of the old, sinful person and the birth of the new, sinless person in Christ.

As I have said many times before, it baptism saved anyone, then John's baptism meant that there was no need for a Savior.

Why was Jesus baptized? Did He need to be saved, to remit His sins, to become a member of His own body? These ideas are ludicrous!

 

[for_his_glory]

Wasn't he returning home from Jerusalem after worshipping God?
Did Gentiles do that in the OT?

Oops, forget to finish that as the Eunuch wanted Philip to baptize him in literal water that was near by them.

Philip was told by an angel to go to the road from Jerusalem to Gaza and it was there that Philip came upon the Eunuch. Acts 8:26-40.

Where do you see that he received the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
Peter said the gift of the Holy Ghost was given after a repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)

Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Just like those Gentles who heard Peter God and were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost after they believed they to were filled with the Holy Spirit just as the Eunuch after hearing Philip preach and believed was also given the gift of the Holy Spirit and then wanted to be baptized in water. It's by hearing the word of God and believing in Christ that one becomes Spiritually born again and becomes indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

That was Cornelius who received the gift of the Holy Ghost before baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his past sins.
And that was a one time event to impress the Jews who came with Peter that God accepts Gentiles. (Acts 11:18)

Acts 10:45 even the Gentiles who heard Peter speak was the Holy Spirit poured out on them, just the same as the Eunuch after Philip preached the word to him and he believed just as the Gentiles on the day of Pentecost as none of them were baptized in water before receiving the Holy Spirit. Cornelius was not just a one time event.

 

[Robert Pate]

The bible is clear in the absolute need for baptism: To be saved, to remit sins, to become a member of the body of Christ. Nowhere does it say or infer it's for the purpose of demonstration to anyone of anything. That's man made-up nonsense in a feeble attempt to deny the necessity of baptism. Believe what you like.

BAPTISM

Necessity or option?
​

Baptism is required in order to:
· Be saved

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”

1st Peter 3:20/21 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”;

· Wash away/remit sins
· Contact the blood of Christ
· Be added to the Lord’s body which is the church
· Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection
· Get “into” Him, put on Christ, and become a child of God
· Receive blessings in Him

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”.

Acts 2:41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”.

Acts 2:47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.

Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.

1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:

Rev 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood”-----

Heb 10:22 “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water”.

Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.

Steps to becoming a Christian
· (1) Hearing the word/gospel (Rom. 1:16, Mk. 16:15, Rom. 10: 14 thru 17, 1 Cor. 1:21 thru 24, Mat 7:24)
· (2) Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mk. 16:16, Heb. 11:6, John 12:46)
· (3) Confessing this before men (Rom. 10:9, 10, Rom. 10:13, Acts 8:37, Mat 10:32)
· (4) Repenting of your sins (Acts 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5, 14:47)
· (5) Being baptized (immersed in water) for the remission (forgiveness) of your sins after which, you are added to the Church (above referenced). (Acts 2:38-41, 47)

The thief on the cross was not baptized.

 

[Tenchi]

I am speaking about the ToS 1.1 and 1.4 please take the time to read them.

I read them before I began to post on this website.

Every one has a view, opinion and understandings of scripture by how they allow themselves to be taught. Many believe everything that comes from the pulpit or rely on others to teach them as many things only makes common sense to them, but yet many think with a carnal mind. Many take the doctrines of their church and make scripture line up with that instead of allowing scripture to line up with what they say. There are rights as well as wrongs as we all see through a glass darkly, but when Christ returns then we will see and understand all truth.

We may all "see through a glass darkly" but we also have "the mind of Christ," and the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit who will bring us into all truth (John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16) as we live in submission to him and study carefully God's word. We only "know in part" this side of eternity, but the part we do know we can know with certainty and clarity. It is the post-modern, relativistic secular culture surrounding the western Church that, I believe, prompts Christians to hold that nothing can truly be known concerning the truth of God's word and so to swing wide the doors of Christian belief to almost anything that someone might propose. But the apostles of the Early Church did not think this way at all:

Galatians 1:6-9 (NASB)
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

2 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB)
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words...

Jude 1:4 (NASB)
4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (NASB)
3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,
5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

And so on.

Truth is exclusivistic; it is often very narrow and closed. If 2+2=4 is true, then 2+2=7 is false. If a ball is entirely red, it cannot also be entirely yellow, or blue or green, too, at the same time. If the rock I hold in my hand is hard, it cannot also be soft at the same time. So, too, God's truth; it is also exclusivistic. Jesus indicated this very clearly:

John 14:6 (NASB)
6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

If Jesus is the sole Way, Truth and Life, the only way to the Father, then any other proposed way to Him is false. This certain, confined, exclusionary sort of attitude toward truth has eroded enormously among modern, western Christians - to very dangerous and destructive results. As much as possible, born-again believers need to withstand the trend toward the view that nothing can be known with certainty, refusing to be "open-minded" and "tolerant" of every sort of "truth" people want to propose.

It doesn't matter what church one chooses to attend as to God what matters is that one is Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit in order for one to enter into the Kingdom of God.

This wasn't the attitude of the apostles. See above.

What God recognizes in us is what spirit lives in our heart and who is or is not obedient to His commands.

Do you not see the inconsistency of dissolving boundaries on the one hand ("It doesn't matter what church one chooses to attend...") and then laying them down on the other ("What God recognizes in us is what Spirit lives in our hearts...")? On what authority do you dismiss the value of the character of the church one attends and then assert what God recognizes? If it's the word of God that is your authority, have you not read what Paul wrote?:

1 Corinthians 5:11 (NASB)
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

2 Timothy 3:2-5 (NASB)
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Ephesians 5:5-11 (NASB)
5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

In light of these passages, how can you suggest that it doesn't matter what sort of church one attends? If a church is full of the sort of people described above, Paul is crystal clear that such a church is to be avoided.

We all get it wrong at times within our understandings as we are always learning and need to be maturing in God's word as knowledge and truth only comes by the Holy Spirit teaching us all things God wants us to learn.

Yes, for sure. But the idea of learning is that one moves from ignorance to knowledge, from a murky, uncertain understanding of the Truth, to a mature, confident clarity about what is True. It is not learning at all to remain ever-uncertain as to what is true and false. The writer of Hebrews makes this point:

Hebrews 5:11-14 (NASB)
11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

 

[Tenchi]

No human holds all truths as we could never exhaust all the teachings within the word of God.

Right. But it doesn't follow that there is nothing we can know with certainty about God's truth. In fact, your statement "We can never exhaust all the teachings of God's word" is itself a statement of truth, given with certainty.

If we would just take the time to listen to the views and opinions of others and compare what they say with the scriptures they need to be giving for support then we can take those scriptures and study them for ourselves to see what others present actually lines up with the full context of scripture and not the other way around as many try to make scripture line up with what they say and believe.

Yes, this is true. I have done and find much of RC doctrine profoundly at odds with God's word.

Talk out the indifferences as a mature Christian adult as we just might learn from others

If they are themselves mature and careful, long-time students of God's word, too. The ignorant, and spiritually-immature, and blind, however, lead one another into the ditch. They need to be taught, not viewed as potential sources of wisdom and truth. It feels...nice, I guess, pluralistic and open-minded, to think that the ignorant and foolish might have something to teach the mature and knowledgeable, but this is not how the Bible regards the matter.

Matthew 15:13-14 (NASB)
13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
14 "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Proverbs 10:8 (NASB)
8 The wise of heart will receive commands, But a babbling fool will be ruined.

Proverbs 14:6-8 (NASB)
6 A scoffer seeks wisdom and finds none, But knowledge is easy to one who has understanding.
7 Leave the presence of a fool, Or you will not discern words of knowledge.
8 The wisdom of the sensible is to understand his way, But the foolishness of fools is deceit.

Isaiah 32:3-6 (NASB)
3 Then the eyes of those who see will not be blinded, And the ears of those who hear will listen.
4 The mind of the hasty will discern the truth, And the tongue of the stammerers will hasten to speak clearly.
5 No longer will the fool be called noble, Or the rogue be spoken of as generous.
6 For a fool speaks nonsense, And his heart inclines toward wickedness...

 

[DJT_47]

The bible is not clear in the absolute need for baptism. That exists only in your imagination, not the Bible.

It is not necessary to be saved, or to remit sins, or to become a member of the body of Christ. Those things can only be done by a person, not a ritual.

Nowhere does it say or infer it's for the purpose of demonstration to anyone of anything, except in Romans 6:4 (and elsewhere): "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

Your false claims are man made-up nonsense in a feeble attempt to require the necessity of baptism. It is a ritual to symbolically demonstrate the death of the old, sinful person and the birth of the new, sinless person in Christ.

As I have said many times before, it baptism saved anyone, then John's baptism meant that there was no need for a Savior.

Why was Jesus baptized? Did He need to be saved, to remit His sins, to become a member of His own body? These ideas are ludicrous!

 

[DJT_47]

You are not understanding the difference between John's baptism and the baptism into Christ. John's baptism was identical to the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 except John's was still while the old covenant was in effect and would have had to be repeated to continue to wash away from sin upon further sunning. Acts2:38 was the baptism into the body of Christ, the church and also that remitted sins, but required only once, not repeatedly. And Jesus was baptized not out of need but to fulfill all righteousness

Mat 3:14-15

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

 

[jaybo]

You are not understanding the difference between John's baptism and the baptism into Christ. John's baptism was identical to the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 except John's was still while the old covenant was in effect and would have had to be repeated to continue to wash away from sin upon further sunning. Acts2:38 was the baptism into the body of Christ, the church and also that remitted sins, but required only once, not repeatedly. And Jesus was baptized not out of need but to fulfill all righteousness

Mat 3:14-15

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

And you completely lack an understanding of baptism!

And your "logic" is nuts! You wrote "John's baptism was identical to the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 except John's was still while the old covenant was in effect and would have had to be repeated to continue to wash away from sin upon further sunning." It's identical but different! Alrighty then!

Maybe if you stopped reading the King James translation and started reading a better translation you might begin to gain understanding. But maybe not!

 

[Hopeful]

All that water baptism is going to do for you is get you wet. Paul said, "By the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20. I am afraid that you are going to be in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we" group, Matthew 7:21-23.

As water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins isn't part of the Mosaic Law, I am not worried about running afoul of the unbiblical doctrine you lean on.
Without water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, I would still be walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)

 

[Hopeful]

Oops, forget to finish that as the Eunuch wanted Philip to baptize him in literal water that was near by them.

Philip was told by an angel to go to the road from Jerusalem to Gaza and it was there that Philip came upon the Eunuch. Acts 8:26-40.
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Just like those Gentles who heard Peter God and were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost after they believed they to were filled with the Holy Spirit just as the Eunuch after hearing Philip preach and believed was also given the gift of the Holy Spirit and then wanted to be baptized in water. It's by hearing the word of God and believing in Christ that one becomes Spiritually born again and becomes indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

The Acts 8 verses don't say that the Ethiopian received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I hope he did, but it isn't written about.

Acts 10:45 even the Gentiles who heard Peter speak was the Holy Spirit poured out on them, just the same as the Eunuch after Philip preached the word to him and he believed just as the Gentiles on the day of Pentecost as none of them were baptized in water before receiving the Holy Spirit. Cornelius was not just a one time event.

Cornelius' event was a one of a kind situation designed by God to show the Jews who accompanied Peter that God had also accepted the Gentiles.
The eunuch only had Philip and a driver in attendance.
Who even knows if he was a Gentile or not?

 

[Hopeful]

The thief on the cross was not baptized.

The thief on the cross went through exactly what we do at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
After he admitted his guilt, he died with Christ.
Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 that our "immersion" is into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 5:24)
We die with Christ, just as did the thief.
And like the thief, we afterwards walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. Baptism is a work of the law. Any religious thing that we do is a work of the law. This is why Paul said, "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20.

Do you know what the deeds of the law are?
Did Jesus leave us with any commands to obey?
Why are you against good works?
Is it just too scary for you to accept that God actually wants something from you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was a teacher of the law. The law judges and condemns. The law also convicts and leads us to Christ, Galatians 3:24.

Hmmm.
Interesting.
But that's not what I asked you.

What I asked is:

Do you believe that doing what Jesus commanded is a work of the law?

That's simply a yes or no answer.

How hyper grace believers feel they have nothing to do in this world but sit pretty.

Well, that's not what Jesus came here to do.
He came here to atone for our sins.
He came here to teach us how to be members of God's Kingdom here on earth.
Teaching means there's something that is needed to learn.

What do you think Jesus wants us to learn?

 

[GodsGrace]

The thief on the cross was not baptized.

Did you want the thief on the cross to get down and get baptized?
I think he couldn't do it.

Do you think God is just?
Doesn't sound like it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, did Jesus elevate it or abolish it?

I hope you answered the above Robert Pate .

It's regarding laws in the NT.
You said Jesus elevated the law, Matthew 5:27

Then you said Jesus abolished the law...
Which is it?

 

[for_his_glory]

The Acts 8 verses don't say that the Ethiopian received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I hope he did, but it isn't written about.

No it doesn't, but just the same after Philip preached the word to him, or after the word was preached to any of us, and he/we believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Cornelius' event was a one of a kind situation designed by God to show the Jews who accompanied Peter that God had also accepted the Gentiles.
The eunuch only had Philip and a driver in attendance.
Who even knows if he was a Gentile or not?

The Eunuch had Philip preach to him just as Cornelius had Peter preach to him and those of the house that were with him that day. While Peter was preaching to them the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and none of them, like the Eunuch were baptized in water before the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius might have been the first Gentile that Peter preached to that received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the Eunuch who might have been a Gentile converted to Judaism was Philip's first Gentile. All that truly matters is the the outpouring of the Holy Spirit does not come by immersion in water as nowhere in scripture does it say that.

John's baptism was only for the outward appearance of repentance and not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Christ was for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit after hearing the word preached.

All I know about the Eunuch was that he was a Jewish proselyte from Ethiopia that converted to Judaism as when he was in the Temple in Jerusalem he went there to worship God, so it really doesn't matter if he was once a Gentile and then converted before he met Philip on the road.