Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

[_ Old Earth _] The Reliability of the Whole Bible Depends on Genesis as History


yes, call me whatever you want, I am nobody special. Just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

Maybe I am the one that is confused.

I had two major typo's in my last post. the word "can't" shouldhave be "can" in two critical locations. sorry, I am dope.

The earth as the "gene" pool ... Is totally reasonable to me. It is about "gene's" and not bodytypes. What determines body types?

are you guys 6-dayers? I thought youwere. sorry if I got that wrong.

maybe I am so stupid simple I confuse people.
Naw, I'll just look and re-read with the "typo" thought in mind, no biggie.

As far as "6-day" types goes? I'm not. That doesn't mean that I they "they" are wrong, but only that I'm undecided. Lots of pits to fall into during these discussions but one that I've never been worried too much about is the "I don't know" statement. Very difficult for even the most skeptical of opponents to force me away from that particular position. Years ago, a couple people tried, called me names and everything. What was my response? May it rightly be said that I'm merely a "cop-out"???

I don't know. ;)

I don't think so. It's okay if you do.
 
No wonder you make perfect sense to me. That's why I was kind of surprised you had a bad experience with your teacher.

You are a better person than I am. I won't tell them they are wrong either, but only, if they don't tell me I am wrong. But, in the end, I don't reallydon't care as long as people don't force it as the "only" truth.

It's a shame, one bad teacher, one bad cop, one bad preacher, messes it up for hundreds of good ones. Sounds like our government. :)

The bible states god created the universe. Since we do not know every thing, that is as far as we need to go for the truth. Making it have to fit,"their" story is a look into the intentions and/or fears of the individual. On both sides.

god is what god is. surpasses all understanding? what does that mean? 6days? whats a day? quatium soup? err, what?

Probably not 6000 years ago. That is as far as I will go :pray







 
I want to look at this for a second.

evolution theory tells us that all things came from matter and by random chance became living organisms. Evolution states that everything evolved from a single cell organism..

Hello Mr StoveBolts... (thks AB)

Genesis NEVER says HOW the Plant Kingdom came into being beyond the one solid statement that there was a Spontaneous Generation of life at least to start with.

The word "grass" in Gen 1:11 was interpreted from the Hebrew word deshe, which actually means "the first sprout of life on Earth."
That is descriptive of whatever it actual was that Spontaneously Generated from God's word.

It is what the Biologists call Abiogenesis.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Can you give any example from science where new information is introduced to form a new family?

The best example "where new information is introduced to form a new family" is that fusion of two Ape chromosome 6-7 million tears ago.
It is an example that fits directly into the Hypothesis that the Genealogy in Genesis is actually about the "22 now extinct humans" in the ascent of Modern man out-of-Africa.




Adamcain.jpg




Book:

Capture.JPG




The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans

by G.J.Sawyer, (Author)



sethNoah.jpg






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

"Chromosome 2 presentsvery strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.

According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locuscloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomerefusion and marks the point atwhich two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.
 
What I understand of your point might be communicated briefly with another picture:

species-fig22_zps1219c720.jpg



So, you suggest that Genesis infers that for evey animal and plant that ever existed, and does now exist and shall exist in the future, God performed a separate Spontaneous Generation.

In each case there was an individual Spontaneous Generation of that "kind."

You are opposed to what others read out of Genesis was one special case of a Spontaneous Generation, from which the growth, development, and maturity of millions and millions of different kinds of life form have over time appear, many gone extinct, and are still changing even now.

It that a fair assessment of your position, many billions of Spontaneous Generations??
 
The word "grass" in Gen 1:11 was interpreted from the Hebrew word deshe, which actually means "the first sprout of life on Earth."
.


Sir, yet again you have posted this untruth. You have been corrected on the meaning of deshe numerous times, yet you insist on inserting a modification which is meant to change the meaning entirely. It is a dishonest endeavor.

Please, stop.
 



?

1) In each case there was an individual Spontaneous Generation of that "kind,".... (zillions of Spontaneous Generations).

2) Under extreme and unusal initial environmental conditions, God said, "Let there be the first sprout of life on Earth," and from that initial protoplasm, through feeding, growth, development, and constant on-going mitosis and miosis, many different life forms adapted to the ever unfolding reality that they managed to survive in.

3) ?
 
The best example "where new information is introduced to form a new family" is that fusion of two Ape chromosome 6-7 million tears ago.
It is an example that fits directly into the Hypothesis that the Genealogy in Genesis is actually about the "22 now extinct humans" in the ascent of Modern man out-of-Africa.

That isn't an example at all. What you are describing has nothing to do with new classifications.

And the hypothesis you speak of is a personal quest which is anti-scientific. It has been tested and failed all tests. You alter the evidence to advance your assumption. If it were a scientific quest you were on, you would discard the "hypothesis" in favor of an assumption that is relevant to the evidence.
 
?

).

2) Under extreme and unusal initial environmental conditions, God said, "Let there be the first sprout of life on Earth," and from that initial protoplasm, through feeding, growth, development, and constant on-going mitosis and miosis, many different life forms adapted to the ever unfolding reality that they managed to survive in.

Again you are using language meant to imply that "deshe" refers to something other than plant-life, simple vegetation or herbs.

"Deshe" is not in reference to any "initial protoplasm."


I will request once again that you please stop.
 
In each case there was an individual Spontaneous Generation of that "kind,"

How many "kinds" or mîn or mîyn are mentioned in the Bible? In The Genesis Record, (1976) when Henry Morris states: “It is significant that the phrase 'after his kind' occurs ten times in the first chapter of Genesis. Whatever precisely is meant by the term “kind” (Hebrew min), it does indicate the limitations of variation. Each organism was to reproduce after its own kind, not after some other kind." Part of the confusion we experience today stems from the difference in purpose of languages. The word "species" is from the Latin and was used in place of the Hebrew word. Scientists oftentimes use Latin because it lends itself to precision but that was not the original sense of the word as seen in the Hebrew.


Footnotes /// Credits /// Accreditation /// References
____________________________________________
Morris, H., The Genesis Record, Grand Rapids MI: Baker Books, 1976. p63.
 
mitosis and miosis

Oh, you've reminded me of something. Back in 1974 the World's Fair was hosted in Spokane. There was an interesting exhibit that invited the public to partake in some scientific research. Here's the set up:

There was a "scientific inquiry" being conducted where you may have participated in a double blind study. Group A and Group B were separated by a panel where both could view the same movie screen but neither could see the other party. They would flash images of human cells in mitosis (or was that meiosis?) and ask the subjects to guess if the cell was about to divide or not.

Each subject had a black box with two buttons located in front of them. One marked "True" and the other marked "False". Perhaps the buttons were color coded red and green, I don't know this for certain, I didn't participate in the study itself but only heard of the result. It's possible that the study was from a lecture I heard at CWU (Central Washington University), again I'm not certain. I've tried to Google it but without success.

But in any case, to continue the story...
Both Group A and Group B would be shown the same images, one at a time, of human cells. Both were asked to predict if the cells were about to divide or not. Both groups were given immediate feedback, and here is where the red and green lights were used.

BUT there was one difference between the feedback that was given to the first and the second groups. Group A would be given "honest feedback". If they predicted that the cell was about to divide and their prediction was true? Their Green light would would indicate their prediction was correct. The other group though would be given totally random feedback. The red and green light response for Group B was predetermined and given without regard to their input. A 'flip of the coin' response, if you will.

mitosis_zps3df2314b.gif

If the animation at first appears jerky, wait until it completely loads and then refresh the screen.
To view the movie again, refresh the screen. The participants of the study were not given the animation to view.
They were not given "the whole story" so to speak, but were left to their own devices for explanation(s).

The Result:
Group A figured it out really quick. They concluded that the "split" would occur after some of the "squiggly lines" seemed to wiggle (kind of). Group B would have figured it out, but the scientists kept changing the data so that no simple and consistent method of observation could be produced (flip of a coin) ... but the scientists had said such a method was there and if group B were observant enough they would eventually figure it out. And they did, but it was utter nonsense.

Group B came up with really bizarre rules and reasons for why the results changed BUT eventually felt they understood it well enough to teach and explain it to others. Group A was brought in and the scientists stopped messing with the data. At first Group A called Group B a bunch of knuckleheads because obviously noticing the change is as easy as 1, 2, 3 but Group B would have nothing to do with their logic and reasoning. Group B was so adamant that their convoluted arguments were superior (they argued by reason of complexity versus simple observation) that they managed to get Group A to reject their method and exchange for Group B's faulty reasoning! This, of course, explains almost everything we see happening on the forum today in terms of argument over science vs. the Bible ... but don't get me started.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How many "kinds" or mîn or mîyn are mentioned in the Bible? In The Genesis Record, (1976) when Henry Morris states: “It is significant that the phrase 'after his kind' occurs ten times in the first chapter of Genesis. Whatever precisely is meant by the term “kind” (Hebrew min), it does indicate the limitations of variation. Each organism was to reproduce after its own kind, not after some other kind." Part of the confusion we experience today stems from the difference in purpose of languages. The word "species" is from the Latin and was used in place of the Hebrew word. Scientists oftentimes use Latin because it lends itself to precision but that was not the original sense of the word as seen in the Hebrew.


Footnotes /// Credits /// Accreditation /// References
____________________________________________
Morris, H., The Genesis Record, Grand Rapids MI: Baker Books, 1976. p63.


So then you are saying that in each separate case, God utilize Spontaneous Generation for each and every "mîyn" separately and individually?

This is diametrically opposed to the other alternative understanding, God use an intial Spontaneous Generation of Life from which that protoplasm grew, diversified, and developed into all sorts of varieties of life?
 
So then you are saying...

No, cupid dave. That is not what I said, and not what I am saying. Do me the favor of allowing me to speak for myself without you following up with questions that misrepresent me or my position. I asked you, specifically, if you do know, how many "kinds" are mentioned in the Bible. I was very specific when I used the word "kinds" and showed that I did not mean "species" but instead was referring to the Hebrew word and its meaning only.

How many kinds [are there mentioned in the Bible]? Do you know?
 
If I were to ask if you knew how many chapters of the Bible in which the Hebrew word miyn appeared (according to the Hebrew Lexicon of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), you might correctly answer, "Four." Meaning that the Bible has only four main places to look when considering my prior question, "How many 'kinds'?"

  • Genesis 1
  • Leviticus 11
  • Deuteronomy 14
  • Ezekiel 47
 
Do me the favor of allowing me to speak for myself without you following up with questions that misrepresent me or my position.

?

I ask you, "Which of the two possibilities for creation of present life do you recommend, as the Bible's position on the matter, (1) Spontaneous generation once or (2) Spontaneosu generation in each and every separate case for each of the different "kinds", "types', "species," "Miyn," what ever,...

AND YOU answered me with a question.

You seem to have this backwards in reprimanding me concerning answering a question with a question, don't you???
 
You are pigeon-holing him with a false dichotomy to choose a position he does not hold.

Neither of those choices are acceptable, not are they the only possibilities to choose from.

You are being reprimanded for not for asking questions, but for loading your questions with strawmen.
 
Back
Top