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The Removing Of 1 Of The 10 Commandments

Blasphemy 102: Mary Worship Angers God

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN...that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:18


Did you know that the catholic religion calls Mary the QUEEN OF HEAVEN? For more on the wicked QUEEN OF HEAVEN and what God thinks of this false god, read Jeremiah 44 where the Israelites were PUNISHED for worshipping her.

Let's continue our look into darkness--the worship of Mary as the queen of heaven and CO-REDEEMER with JESUS CHRIST [Lord have mercy, Jesus]. First of all, the Mary of the Catholic religion is NOT the Mary of the Bible. They have simply taken her name and superimposed it on top of a pre-existing goddess. The above passage from Jeremiah was written hundreds of years BEFORE Mary was born--the queen of heaven was already being worshipped and the people were making God mad. This is the Bible talking, we're not looking at history books, we are looking at God's holy word. Blessed be the Lord Who hath preserved His word so that we don't have to be deceived.

I've heard Catholics say things like, "I don't really pray to Mary, I just talk to her. She helps me and she can talk to Jesus for me." What is praying but talking to the Lord? Where do you read in the Bible that you are supposed to ask Mary for anything? You can't find that command anywhere in the Bible because we are supposed to ask Jesus Christ Himself.

But then I get an answer like, "Well, it doesn't exactly say that we have to pray to her, but..." If it don't say it, then we don't have the liberty to add it in! This IS what the Bible says:

For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5

"But tradition and Pope Pious the so-and-so says..." Hold it right there. Let's break it down to see what Jesus Christ thinks about the tradition of men:

And he said unto them, Full well ye REJECT the commandment of God, that ye may KEEP your own tradition.

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mark 7:9, 13

Is there any question about what the Lord thinks of tradition?

"But the new catechism has changed things." No it hasn't. The Catholic religion is the same heretical cult, leading its followers straight to hell with its false sacramental gospel--incidentally, there is no purgatory and no outward activity like belonging to an organization can save your soul. According to the 1992 catechism, Mary is sinless, a perpetual virgin, the mother of God (God ain't got no mother!), queen of heaven and co-redemptrix with Jesus Christ [Lord, have mercy, Jesus] (see articles 491,494,495,508,964,966,968,969)--the same ol' stuff. How can she be co-redeemer with Jesus Christ when the Bible says (speaking of Jesus):

Neither is there salvation in ANY other: for there is NONE other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 4:12

You can't get more clear than that.

"But, the immaculate conception..." That's not in the Bible. "But she was sinless..." That's not in the Bible. "But she is our intercessor to Jesus..." That's not in the Bible. "But she's the mother of God..." That's not in the Bible. "But she suffered as much as Jesus did on the cross..." That's not in the Bible. "But she's more compassionate than God--like your mom is more compassionate than your dad..." That's not in the Bible. "But my family is catholic..." Your family does not determine your eternal salvation--your relationship with Jesus Christ does:

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 6:17-18

Jesus said, "They that worship the Father must worship him in spirit and in TRUTH." God will not accept your worship based on a lie. Repent or perish. Our index page has a lot more on the Catholic religion.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/blasp102.htm
 
According to scripture - not me - Mary is presently in the grave awaiting resurrection. So ...whether 'worshipping' or 'showing respect' to Mary is rather pointless, is it not?
 
But what the catholic church is doing to over a billion catholics is the tragedy. I mean look at catholicxian and Thessalonian. They have become so brainwashed by the lies of the catholic church that they take obvious scripture and try their best to twist it into the opposite of what it says, merely to believe the pope. I have heard catholics confess their sins to Mary and ask for forgiveness from Mary! But this is why Jesus tells us not to call any religious figure Father" because of how people worship that person over the Word of God. Jesus is no dummy and had a reason for saying that. Unfrotunately, the catholics brainwash their congregation not to listen to Jesus and it works. :crying:
 
I have heard a Catholic whorship service on TV and they repeat Mary's name many more times than Jesus' for crying out loud.
 
gingercat said:
I have heard a Catholic whorship service on TV and they repeat Mary's name many more times than Jesus' for crying out loud.

This Mary thing has gotten so out of control that Pope John Paul actually gave credit to mary for healing him from the assassination attempt! But paul tells us that false teachers will be eternally condemned. I have a feeling that thier end will be worse than atheists because atheists have no illusions that they are worshiping Christ. But, since they don't listen to Jesus, then they, as Jesus said, are without excuse. :wink:
 
Lewis W,

Isn't there something about cut-n-paste in the rules for the forum? I'd really rather read your own research/thoughts on the forum, rather than a link (which has been given to me many times... do you honestly like the "jesus is lord" website? all the hatred is a bit scary...). I don't mind links when they back up something you are saying, but I'd rather read your words than a cut-n-paste job.

(and this topic seems to be getting very far off track)
 
gingercat said:
I have heard a Catholic whorship service on TV and they repeat Mary's name many more times than Jesus' for crying out loud.
I am highly skeptical of this...

Here is the text, in its entirety, of the Catholic worship service (aka, the Mass/Liturgy). And, well, excluding the readings and propers (prayers that change each day), Mary is mentioned 5 times, and I lost count of how many times Christ is referred to.

Needless to say, spoken references to Christ GREATLY outnumber any reference to the Blessed Mother. Which makes sense, since the Mass is about JESUS.


INTRODUCTORY RITES

[stand]
Entrance Procession:

[After the people have assembled, an opening song or entrance antiphon is sung or recited as the priest and the ministers enter the church and process to the altar; after reverencing the altar (sometimes also using incense), they go to their chairs.]

Greeting:

Priest: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. [All together make the sign of the cross.]
All: Amen.

Option A:

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

All: And also with you.
Option B:
Priest: The grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

All: Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
or
All: And also with you.
Option C:
Priest: The Lord be with you.

[or Bishop: Peace be with you.]

All: And also with you.




[The priest or another minister may then briefly introduce the Mass of the day, saying something about the readings, the feast, and/or the special occasion being celebrated.]

Rite of Blessing and Sprinkling Holy Water:

Priest: Dear friends, this water will be used to remind us of our baptism. Let us ask God to bless it, and to keep us faithful to the Spirit he has given us. [or similar words of introduction]

Option A:

Priest: God our Father, your gift of water brings life and freshness to the earth; it washes away our sins and brings us eternal life.

We ask you now to bless this water, and to give us your protection on this day which you have made your own. Renew the living spring of your life within us and protect us in spirit and body, that we may be free from sin and come into your presence to receive your gift of salvation.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.
Option B:
Priest: Lord God almighty, creator of all life, of body and soul, we ask you to bless this water: as we use it in faith forgive our sins and save us from all illness and the power of evil.

Lord, in your mercy give us living water, always springing up as a fountain of salvation: free us, body and soul, from every danger, and admit us to your presence in purity of heart.

Grant this through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.
Option C (during the Easter Season):
Priest: Lord God almighty, hear the prayers of your people: we celebrate our creation and redemption. Hear our prayers and bless this water which give fruitfulness to the fields, and refreshment and cleansing to man. You chose water to show your goodness when you led your people to freedom through the Red Sea and satisfied their thirst in the desert with water from the rock. Water was the symbol used by the prophets to foretell your new covenant with us. You made the water of baptism holy by Christ's baptism in the Jordan: by it you give us a new birth and renew us in holiness. May this water remind us of our baptism, and let us share the joy of all who have been baptized at Easter.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.


[After blessing the water, the priest moves through the church sprinkling all of the people while an antiphon or other song is sung. When the sprinkling and the song is finished, the priest concludes this rite as follows:]

Priest: May almighty God cleanse us of our sins, and through the eucharist we celebrate make us worthy to sit at his table in his heavenly kingdom.
All: Amen.

[This rite is commonly celebrated during the Easter Season, but may also be used at other times. When it is used, the Penitential Rite is omitted, and the Mass continues with the Gloria (on most Sundays and solemnities) or with the Opening Prayer (during Advent and Lent, and on weekdays).]

or Penitential Rite:

Priest: As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ's love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.
or Coming together as God's family, with confidence let us ask the Father's forgiveness, for he is full of gentleness and compassion.
or My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins.
[or similar words of introduction, followed by a period of silent reflection.]

Option A:

All: I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

All: Amen.
Option B:
Priest: Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.

All: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: Lord, show us your mercy and love.

All: And grant us your salvation.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

All: Amen.
Option C: [The following or other invocations may be spoken by the priest or another minister, but the priest always gives the final blessing.]
Minister: You raise the dead to life in the Spirit: Lord, have mercy.
All: Lord, have mercy.

Minister: You bring pardon and peace to the sinner: Christ, have mercy.
All: Christ, have mercy.

Minister: You bring light to those in darkness: Lord, have mercy.
All: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.
All: Amen.


Kyrie:

[The following acclamations are sung or recited, either in English or Greek, unless they have already been used, as in option C above.]

Priest: Lord, have mercy. All: Lord, have mercy.
Priest: Christ, have mercy. All: Christ, have mercy.
Priest: Lord, have mercy. All: Lord, have mercy. or
Priest: Kyrie, eleison. All: Kyrie, eleison.
Priest: Christe, eleison. All: Christe, eleison.
Priest: Kyrie, eleison. All: Kyrie, eleison.


Gloria:

[This ancient hymn of praise is used on all Sundays outside of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and major feasts, and in solemn local celebrations. It is preferably sung by the whole congregation, but may also be sung by the choir or recited by all. The priest may begin with a brief sung or spoken invitation for the people to praise God.]

All: Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Opening Prayer:

Priest: Let us pray.
[After a time of silent prayer, the priest sings or says the Opening Prayer, which is different for each Mass.
At the end, the people proclaim their consent.]
All: Amen.

[sit]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LITURGY OF THE WORD

First Reading:

Lector: A reading from the Book (or Letter, or Acts) of ...
[Different readings are prescribed for each day.
At the end of the reading, the lector proclaims, and the people respond:]
Lector: The Word of the Lord.
All: Thanks be to God!

Responsorial Psalm:

[The choir and/or cantor sing or recite the psalm; the people join in the repeated response.]

Second Reading:

[A second reading is prescribed for all Sundays and major feasts, but not for most weekdays or minor feasts.
The lector's introduction and conclusion and the people's response are the same as in the First Reading, above.]

[stand]
Alleluia or Gospel Acclamation:

Choir or Cantor: Alleluia! All repeat: Alleluia!
Choir or Cantor: [verse] All repeat: Alleluia!

[The "Alleluia" may be repeated two or more times, especially during the Easter Season. If it is not sung, it should be omitted.]
[During the Season of Lent, a different "Gospel Acclamation" is used, such as "Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ, King of endless glory!" or "Praise and honor to you, Lord Jesus Christ!" or "Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!" or something similar.]

Gospel:

Before the Gospel Proclamation:
Deacon (or Priest): The Lord be with you. All: And also with you.
Deacon (or Priest): A reading from the Holy Gospel according to... [Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John]
All: Glory to you, Lord!

After the Gospel Proclamation:
Deacon (or Priest): The Gospel of the Lord.
All: Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!

[sit]
Homily:

[The bishop, priest, or deacon then speaks to the people, usually focusing on that day's scriptures and/or on the feast or special occasion being celebrated at that Mass; but the homily may also be based on any liturgical text from the Mass.]

[stand]
Profession of Faith:

[On Sundays and solemnities, the Nicene Creed is normally recited by everyone after the homily. The Apostles' Creed may be used instead, esp. in celebrations of Masses with children.]

NICENE CREED:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
[bow during the next two lines:]
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


General Intercessions / Prayer of the Faithful:

Lector: …let us pray to the Lord.
All: Lord, hear our prayer. [or a similar response, repeated after each petition]

[sit]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST

Presentation of the Gifts / Preparation of the Altar:

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
All: Blessed be God for ever.

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.
All: Blessed be God for ever.

[If there is no singing during the presentation of the gifts, the priest may say the preceding prayers aloud, and the people may respond. But if a presentation song is being sung, the priest recites these prayers inaudibly, and the people's response is omitted. Then, after the priest has washed his hands and the music is finished, he invites the people to join in prayer:]

[stand]

Priest: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
All: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands,
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good, and the good of all his Church.

Prayer over the Gifts:

[The priest sings or says this prayer, which is different for each Mass. At the end, the people respond:]
All: Amen.

Eucharistic Prayer:

[The priest may choose from among four regular Eucharistic Prayers, or two other Eucharistic Prayers for Masses of Reconciliation. On appropriate occasions, the priest may also choose from among three Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children, or four recently approved Eucharistic Prayers for Various Needs and Occasions. Each prayer has a similar structure, including some responses and acclamations by all the people. There are also many choices for the "Preface," depending on the liturgical season, the feast of the day, and the ritual or occasion being celebrated at that Mass.]

Texts of the Eucharistic Prayers (too long to post here)

[The posture of the people during the Eucharistic Prayer is different in various countries and regions; in the United States, the people normally stand until the "Holy, Holy", and then kneel until after the "Great Amen."]

Preface Dialogue:
Priest: The Lord be with you. All: And also with you.
Priest: Lift up your hearts. All: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God. All: It is right to give him thanks and praise.

Holy, Holy (Sanctus):
All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
[kneel]

Memorial Acclamation:
Priest: Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:
All: A - Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
or B - Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory.
or C - When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory.
or D - Lord, by your cross and resurrection, you have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.

Doxology and Great Amen:
Priest: Through him, with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.
All: Amen! [may be sung more than once]

[stand]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMUNION RITE

Lord's Prayer:

Priest: Let us pray with confidence to the Father in the words our Savior gave us.
or Jesus taught us to call God our Father, and so we have the courage to say:
or Let us ask our Father to forgive our sins and to bring us to forgive those who sin against us.
or Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus taught us.

All: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
All: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.

Sign of Peace:

Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.
All: Amen.

Priest: The Peace of the Lord be with you always.
All: And also with you.

Deacon or Priest: Let us offer each other a sign of peace.
[The ministers and all the people exchange an embrace, handshake, or other appropriate gesture of peace with those near them, according to local custom.]

Breaking of the Bread:

All: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: grant us peace.
[kneel]

[This text may be sung or recited, and may be repeated several more times until the breaking of bread and the preparation of the communion vessels is finished; but the last phrase is always "Grant us peace."]

Communion:

Priest: This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper.
All: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.

[The manner of receiving communion differs significantly between various countries, dioceses, and even individual parishes. In the United States, the people normally process to the front in lines, receive communion standing, and then return to their places in the congregation. In some cases, the ministers may go to other locations within the church to distribute communion, or may even approach individuals at their places (esp. the elderly or infirm). Communion is now usually offered "under both species", i.e., both the consecrated bread and the consecrated wine. It may be distributed by priests, deacons, or designated lay persons, called "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist." Communicants are encouraged to receive the consecrated bread in their hands, but may also receive communion on the tongue. After returning to their places, the people are encouraged to remain standing until everyone has received communion, but in many parishes the people immediately sit down or kneel for silent prayer.]

Communion Minister: The body of Christ. Communicant: Amen.
Communion Minister: The blood of Christ. Communicant: Amen.

Communion Song:

[During the reception of Communion, an appropriate song is sung, or at least a short "Communion Antiphon" is recited.]

[sit]
Period of Silence or Song of Praise:

[When the distribution of Communion is completed, there may be a period of silence for individual prayer, or a psalm or song of praise may be sung. The people either stand, sit, or kneel during this time, although the posture of the congregation should be unified.]

[stand]
Prayer after Communion:

Priest: Let us pray.
[All pray in silence for a while, unless a period of silence has already been observed. Then the priest sings or says the Prayer after Communion, which is different for each Mass.
At the end, the people proclaim their consent.]
All: Amen.

[Announcements, etc.]:

[If there are any announcements, acknowledgements, reflections, eulogies, or similar actions, these are best included here, after the Prayer after Communion and before the Concluding Rite.
The people may remain standing, or may be invited to sit, depending on the length of the announcements or activity.]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUDING RITE

[stand]
Greeting:

Priest: The Lord be with you.
All: And also with you.

Blessing:

Option A: Simple Form

Priest: May almighty God bless you,
the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

All: Amen.
Option B: Solemn Blessing
Deacon or Priest: Bow your heads and pray for God's blessing.

[One or more invocations may be spoken, and the people usually respond "Amen" to each one. The following conclusion is always used.]

Priest: May almighty God bless you,
the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

All: Amen.
Option C: Prayer over the People
Deacon or Priest: Bow your heads and pray for God's blessing.

[The priest may choose from several options, depending on the occasion or special need. The following conclusion is always used.]

Priest: May almighty God bless you,
the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

All: Amen.


Dismissal:

Deacon or Priest: Go in the peace of Christ.
or The Mass is ended, go in peace.
or Go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
All: Thanks be to God!



[Recessional and Closing Song]
 
CatholicXian said:
Lewis W,

Isn't there something about cut-n-paste in the rules for the forum? I'd really rather read your own research/thoughts on the forum, rather than a link (which has been given to me many times... do you honestly like the "jesus is lord" website? all the hatred is a bit scary...). I don't mind links when they back up something you are saying, but I'd rather read your words than a cut-n-paste job.

(and this topic seems to be getting very far off track)
You have to post where you got it from.
 
Heidi said:
notapseudonym said:
When God set down the directions for making the ark of the covenant what did He ask be put on top? Two angels, stautes. Therefore, by your arguments God violates Hid own commandment.

God did not ask us to bow down to the ark. It housed the 10 Commandemtns. Yet there is a picture of Pope John Paul bowing down to a statue of Mary and kissing it. So the catholic church has much contempt for scripture.


Josh 7

[6]
Then Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust upon their heads.
:-D

Filthy idolater. What did the Lord do to this wicked soul? Why he granted him victory the next day. If you evenagelicals had been standing around I bet you would have been casting stones, judging these men's hearts by the externals. :o

Better brush up on your bible a bit heidi. I suggest reading the OT. Bowing down is not anywhere near always worship in scripture. I can show you many examples where it is not. Abraham bows down before the people. David before Bethsheeba, Issac declares the people will bow down before Jacob.... Several others.
 
Heidi said:
But what the catholic church is doing to over a billion catholics is the tragedy. I mean look at catholicxian and Thessalonian. They have become so brainwashed by the lies of the catholic church that they take obvious scripture and try their best to twist it into the opposite of what it says, merely to believe the pope. I have heard catholics confess their sins to Mary and ask for forgiveness from Mary! But this is why Jesus tells us not to call any religious figure Father" because of how people worship that person over the Word of God. Jesus is no dummy and had a reason for saying that. Unfrotunately, the catholics brainwash their congregation not to listen to Jesus and it works. :crying:


No it is you that twists. I highly doudt that you have heard any Catholics ask Mary to forgive their sins. We ask Mary to ask Jesus to give us the grace to overcome our sins. Even the rosary we say the hail mary's while meditating on Jesus life death and resurrection, but in between we say "OH MY JESUS FORGIVE US OUR SINS, SAVE US FROM THE FIRES OF HELL, ESPECIALLY THOSE IN MOST NEED OF THY MERCY". You have proven time and time again that you don't know what you are talking about regarding Catholicism. From my post above you don't even know your Bible very well. You judge Catholicism from your misperceptions of it. It is so sad that you are so arrogant to think that you actually know what is going on in the hearts and minds of Catholics, Very sad.
 
SputnikBoy said:
According to scripture - not me - Mary is presently in the grave awaiting resurrection. So ...whether 'worshipping' or 'showing respect' to Mary is rather pointless, is it not?

You believe in soul sleep? Is the soul with God or in the grave? Actually for us Catholics Mary recieved a special priviledge and was bodily assumed in to heaven as Christ's mother so no, you are wrong.
 
Heidi said:
SputnikBoy said:
I don't wish to be disrespectful or condemning in any way but I am curious as to the difference between 'respect' for Mary and 'worship' of Jesus. There DOES seem to be an extremely thin line between the two.

There shouldn't be. Whatever good that Mary did came from the Holy Spirit in her, not from herself. And that's why Jesus said; "No one is good but God lone." He means "No one is good but God alone. Therefore, God gets the credit for the work he did in Mary, not Mary herself. But the catholics do not give God the credit, they give it to Mary instead. "He who exalts himself will be humbled."

Giving Mary and the saints the credit for the work they did is like me giving credit to me myself and I for what God has done for me. That is boasting, bragging, the sin of pride, deceit, and blasphemy. The catholic church worships people, not God.

Actually this is not at all close to correct. We recognize what God did/does in and through Mary and that gives glory to God. You distort Catholicism in to something hideous at a whim. Pridefully thinking you know better than a Catholic what they believe.
 
In answer to the OP. Lewis you really show the height of your foolishness posting this tripe. We do have a listing of the 10 that does not mention the graven images thing. But having gone through Catechetical teaching for many years and having heard the 10 preached from the pulpit many times I can tell you your thread doesn't hold water. You see here is the problem. Staright out of our catechism, as is taught in catholic CCD:

ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT


I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4


It's right there lewis. No hiding as you claim. It was not deleted. It makes perfect sense that a graven image as a God is another God and so it belongs with the first commandment. It is not a prohibition against images because God indeed commands images to be made in Ex 25, for those keeping track that's after ex 20, in the temple, and of course the bronze serpant. Images that are not considered images of God or gods are not a violation of the commandment. In every place in scripture where an image is a problem it has become a God. This even happens with the bronze serpant eventually in Numbers and God destroyes it.

* IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69


By the way, Lewis, who told you there were 10 commandments or what listing of commandments is the correct one. If you look at text from the Dead Sea Scrolls or any other ancient writings there is no numbering. There are not even any paragraphs of punctuation. None of this was inserted until long after the apostles died. The listing of commandments in to 10 is a tradition as a matter of fact, meant as a teaching aide. The Bible does not truly list or ever use the phrase "ten commandments". By what authority has anyone grouped the commandments in to 10 and said this is the correct 10? There are actually 14 statements so why are your 10 better than our 10? This thread is one sad bunch of nonsense for the objective reader. For the prejudiced I am sure it is just find.

Blessings
 
Lewis W said:
CatholicXian said:
Lewis W,

Isn't there something about cut-n-paste in the rules for the forum? I'd really rather read your own research/thoughts on the forum, rather than a link (which has been given to me many times... do you honestly like the "jesus is lord" website? all the hatred is a bit scary...). I don't mind links when they back up something you are saying, but I'd rather read your words than a cut-n-paste job.

(and this topic seems to be getting very far off track)
You have to post where you got it from.
Ah, okay, I guess I misunderstood it. Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. It still would be nice to read your take on things though, :wink:

What are your thoughts on David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant (the Ark was not God, even though it contained Holy items), and the cherubims on either side of it... David was showing reverence and respect to a thing that is not God? Is the Ark of the Covenant a "graven image"? Why/why not? Why can one show reverence to the Ark without violating the Commandment?
 
CatholicXian said:
[

What are your thoughts on David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant (the Ark was not God, even though it contained Holy items), and the cherubims on either side of it... David was showing reverence and respect to a thing that is not God? Is the Ark of the Covenant a "graven image"? Why/why not? Why can one show reverence to the Ark without violating the Commandment?

I am sorry to butt in catholic, I hope you don't mind.

We have to remember we are not in the OT times any more. God directly delt with His people in the OT time. We are with Jesus and with His new covenent which is NT. He is teaching us how we worship Him in the NT. We should not flip flap OT and NT, IMHO.

thanks :D
 
gingercat said:
CatholicXian said:
[

What are your thoughts on David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant (the Ark was not God, even though it contained Holy items), and the cherubims on either side of it... David was showing reverence and respect to a thing that is not God? Is the Ark of the Covenant a "graven image"? Why/why not? Why can one show reverence to the Ark without violating the Commandment?

I am sorry to butt in catholic, I hope you don't mind.

We have to remember we are not in the OT times any more. God directly delt with His people in the OT time. We are with Jesus and with His new covenent which is NT. He is teaching us how we worship Him in the NT. We should not flip flap OT and NT, IMHO.

thanks :D

Not only that, but God told his people to build an ark to house the ten Commandments. People did not see the ark as a god like they see people as gods. The catholics give credit to Mary for her good deeds instead of to God who enabled her. That uis where the lie and the sin is. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." If only catholicxian really believed Jesus, we wouldn't be arguing. She claims to, but in her heart she doesn't or she wouldn't give people the credit for God's work in them.
 
Heidi said:
gingercat said:
CatholicXian said:
[

What are your thoughts on David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant (the Ark was not God, even though it contained Holy items), and the cherubims on either side of it... David was showing reverence and respect to a thing that is not God? Is the Ark of the Covenant a "graven image"? Why/why not? Why can one show reverence to the Ark without violating the Commandment?

I am sorry to butt in catholic, I hope you don't mind.

We have to remember we are not in the OT times any more. God directly delt with His people in the OT time. We are with Jesus and with His new covenent which is NT. He is teaching us how we worship Him in the NT. We should not flip flap OT and NT, IMHO.

thanks :D

Not only that, but God told his people to build an ark to house the ten Commandments. People did not see the ark as a god like they see people as gods. The catholics give credit to Mary for her good deeds instead of to God who enabled her. That uis where the lie and the sin is. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." If only catholicxian really believed Jesus, we wouldn't be arguing. She claims to, but in her heart she doesn't or she wouldn't give people the credit for God's work in them.

Heidi,

Please read my posts above to you. You slander and bear false witness. We don't see anyone as a god but God himself. We recgonize however the great things GOD has done in and through these people. You don't know Catholicx's heart though you claim to. You distort how she and I view things and then tell us we don't believe in Jesus. We are arguing because of your arrogance in believing you know better than we do with regard to how Catholicism views the world and the saints that God uses to bring people to Chirst. They give glory to him through their lives. Once again read my posts above. Especaill the one in which I rebut your very errant statement that people did not bow down to the Ark of the Covenant. You are quite wrong.
 
Thessalonian said:
Heidi said:
gingercat said:
CatholicXian said:
[

What are your thoughts on David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant (the Ark was not God, even though it contained Holy items), and the cherubims on either side of it... David was showing reverence and respect to a thing that is not God? Is the Ark of the Covenant a "graven image"? Why/why not? Why can one show reverence to the Ark without violating the Commandment?

I am sorry to butt in catholic, I hope you don't mind.

We have to remember we are not in the OT times any more. God directly delt with His people in the OT time. We are with Jesus and with His new covenent which is NT. He is teaching us how we worship Him in the NT. We should not flip flap OT and NT, IMHO.

thanks :D

Not only that, but God told his people to build an ark to house the ten Commandments. People did not see the ark as a god like they see people as gods. The catholics give credit to Mary for her good deeds instead of to God who enabled her. That uis where the lie and the sin is. Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." If only catholicxian really believed Jesus, we wouldn't be arguing. She claims to, but in her heart she doesn't or she wouldn't give people the credit for God's work in them.

Heidi,

Please read my posts above to you. You slander and bear false witness. We don't see anyone as a god but God himself. We recgonize however the great things GOD has done in and through these people. You don't know Catholicx's heart though you claim to. You distort how she and I view things and then tell us we don't believe in Jesus. We are arguing because of your arrogance in believing you know better than we do with regard to how Catholicism views the world and the saints that God uses to bring people to Chirst. They give glory to him through their lives. Once again read my posts above. Especaill the one in which I rebut your very errant statement that people did not bow down to the Ark of the Covenant. You are quite wrong.

So why do you praise Mary and build statues of her instead of praising God alone?

So it is you who are bearing false witness, especially since it isthe pope you call your Holy Father and Mary you've simply decided was sinless when the bible clearly contradicts that. Once again, God gets the credit for the work he did in Mary, not Mary herself which is precisely why the bible tells us not to erect images and statues of mortal men. Only pagans and secular society does that. And I've got the bible to support me and you don't, so it is again you who is bearing false witness, Thessalonian. ;-)
 
Heidi said:
So why do you praise Mary and build statues of her instead of praising God alone?


Time out Heidi, Time out. Your letting your hatred of me and my religion get the best of your thinking. You don't properly answer what I have posted and just come with another red herring question. Does anyone ever thank you for doing something for them? Have you ever had a child come to you and say "thanks for the shoes"? Yet we know that it is God who provides. Do you say your welcome or "you wicked little idolater". It is not a sin to acknowledge men and women as long as we know the ultimate source of the benefits we recieve is God the Father. All comes from God. All grace, including that which produces natural benefits. That is an axiom of the Catholic faith. You rasie false dichotomies. Praise is not limited to God in scripture and because a man recieves praise becuase of the work that God does in him/her that does not mean we do not praise God as well. Not at all. Perhaps you can find me a passage somewhere in scripture that says "praise God alone"?. I don't see it. I see Paul praising the Corinthians I believe it was for holding fast to the faith. I see him speaking about "anything worthy of praise". I even see a passage saying "men recieve their praise from God". Your failure to study the scriptures does not constitute a need for me to change my religion and practices. Praise and honor are not reserved for God alone. You continue to distort the Catholic faith. You bear false witness. I'll not answer any more of your post until you are willing to own up to your errors here. It's an excercise in futility.


2Tim.4
[7] I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Hmmmm. Is Paul taking credit here for what God did? God knows Paul's heart. I am sure he judged him well. Your not doing so hot judging Catholcs on this board by what you plainly do not understand and refuse to acknowledge out of prejudice.

And I've got the bible to support me and you don't, so it is again you who is bearing false witness, Thessalonian.

More na-na boo boo handwaving without substance behind the words. I've answered this alread for others. Read my post on the op.
 
Thessalonian said:
Heidi said:
So why do you praise Mary and build statues of her instead of praising God alone?


Time out Heidi, Time out. Your letting your hatred of me and my religion get the best of your thinking. You don't properly answer what I have posted and just come with another red herring question. Does anyone ever thank you for doing something for them? Have you ever had a child come to you and say "thanks for the shoes"? Yet we know that it is God who provides. Do you say your welcome or "you wicked little idolater". It is not a sin to acknowledge men and women as long as we know the ultimate source of the benefits we recieve is God the Father. All comes from God. All grace, including that which produces natural benefits. That is an axiom of the Catholic faith. You rasie false dichotomies. Praise is not limited to God in scripture and because a man recieves praise becuase of the work that God does in him/her that does not mean we do not praise God as well. Not at all. Perhaps you can find me a passage somewhere in scripture that says "praise God alone"?. I don't see it. I see Paul praising the Corinthians I believe it was for holding fast to the faith. I see him speaking about "anything worthy of praise". I even see a passage saying "men recieve their praise from God". Your failure to study the scriptures does not constitute a need for me to change my religion and practices. Praise and honor are not reserved for God alone. You continue to distort the Catholic faith. You bear false witness. I'll not answer any more of your post until you are willing to own up to your errors here. It's an excercise in futility.


2Tim.4
[7] I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Hmmmm. Is Paul taking credit here for what God did? God knows Paul's heart. I am sure he judged him well. Your not doing so hot judging Catholcs on this board by what you plainly do not understand and refuse to acknowledge out of prejudice.

And I've got the bible to support me and you don't, so it is again you who is bearing false witness, Thessalonian.

More na-na boo boo handwaving without substance behind the words. I've answered this alread for others. Read my post on the op.

I don't erect statues in honor of that person nor do I say that person was sinless. So again, your comparison has nothing to do with the catholic veneration of mary.

Do you understand why the bible tells us not to erect statues of people, Thess? or not? :o

And by the way, it's simply a fact that the bible supports my beliefs and not yours. If you don't like that, then that's your problem, not mine.
 
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