The Removing Of 1 Of The 10 Commandments

[thessalonian]

I don't erect statues in honor of that person nor do I say that person was sinless. So again, your comparison has nothing to do with the catholic veneration of mary.

Do you understand why the bible tells us not to erect statues of people, Thess? or not? :o

And by the way, it's simply a fact that the bible supports my beliefs and not yours. If you don't like that, then that's your problem, not mine.

Heidi, this thread is not about Mary per sey. It's about statues. Now answer the main question in the OP based on my post above in which I post what the Catechism says and how the information on the commandments is presented. Do we leave out the second commandment as the OP states or is this a distortion? Did the Jews make statues after God told them not to (according to your definition) thus (by your definition) makeing God out to contradict himself. Forbidding them to make statues and then commanding them to. Or is the prohibition against graven images properly interpreted as a prohibition against creating an image that you consider in your heart to be your God? It's not a difficult question. Don't let you bias blind you. Try to be intellectually honest just this once.

 

[thessalonian]

By the way, Heidi, did you get my post about bowing down before the ark. You claim that God never had anyone bow down before it. Yet I showed you otherwise in Joshua 7. According to your way of using "bearing false witness" you in fact did against the Bible. So be honest again, is bowing to before someone or something ALWAYS worship. Let me remind you I have several verses of people bowing before people as well. No evidence at all that God held them accountable for any idolatry.

 

[Disciple88]

An icon (from Greek εἰκών, eikon, "image") is an image, picture, or representation; it is a sign or likeness that stands for an object by signifying or representing it, or by analogy, as in semiotics; in computers an icon is a symbol on the monitor used to signify a command; by extension, icon is also used, particularly in modern popular culture, in the general sense of symbol  i.e. a name, face, picture or even a person readily recognized as having some well-known significance or embodying certain qualities.

In Eastern Orthodoxy and other icon-painting Christian traditions, the icon is generally a flat panel painting depicting a holy being or object such as Jesus, Mary, saints, angels, or the cross. Icons may also be cast in metal, carved in stone, embroidered on cloth, done in mosaic work, printed on paper or metal, etc.

This might help. The most inmportant thing to remember that Christ is not an idol, He is God.

Also, catholics do pray in front of saints, which is unbiblical.

 

[thessalonian]

In answer to the OP. Lewis you really show the height of your foolishness posting this tripe. We do have a listing of the 10 that does not mention the graven images thing. But having gone through Catechetical teaching for many years and having heard the 10 preached from the pulpit many times I can tell you your thread doesn't hold water. You see here is the problem. Staright out of our catechism, as is taught in catholic CCD:

ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT


I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4


It's right there lewis. No hiding as you claim. It was not deleted. It makes perfect sense that a graven image as a God is another God and so it belongs with the first commandment. It is not a complete blanket prohibition against all images because God indeed commands images to be made in Ex 25, for those keeping track that's after ex 20, in the temple, and of course the bronze serpant. Images that are not considered images of God or gods are not a violation of the commandment. In every place in scripture where an image is a problem it has become a God. This even happens with the bronze serpant eventually in Numbers and God destroyes it.

* IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69


By the way, Lewis, who told you there were 10 commandments or what listing of commandments is the correct one. If you look at text from the Dead Sea Scrolls or any other ancient writings there is no numbering. There are not even any paragraphs of punctuation. None of this was inserted until long after the apostles died. The listing of commandments in to 10 is a tradition as a matter of fact, meant as a teaching aide. The Bible does not truly list or ever use the phrase "ten commandments". By what authority has anyone grouped the commandments in to 10 and said this is the correct 10? There are actually 14 statements so why are your 10 better than our 10? This thread is one sad bunch of nonsense for the objective reader. For the prejudiced I am sure it is just find.

Blessings

Let's bring this post forward since it directly debunks the OP.

 

[Gary]

10 commandments in RCC, Judaism and Reformed

Lewis, I hope this helps.....

Difference between the 10 commandments in Judaism, Roman Catholicism and Reformed Theology

It is quite complicated. First issue to realise is that the Torah (first 5 books) and the Tanak (the whole Jewish "Bible") number slightly differently to the Old Testament (used by Roman Catholics and Protestants).

The 10 commandments are Ex 20:2-14 in the Torah while they are Ex 20:2-17 in the Old Testament. NOTHING is left out... it is ONLY a numbering issue.

Then, within those verses, there are different ways of splitting up (dividing up) the verses to make the 10 commandments.

I have done some work to try and explain the differences of how the verses are divided up into the different 10 commandments....
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bi ... dments.htm

I hope that helps.

.

 

[Heidi]

I don't erect statues in honor of that person nor do I say that person was sinless. So again, your comparison has nothing to do with the catholic veneration of mary.

Do you understand why the bible tells us not to erect statues of people, Thess? or not? :o

And by the way, it's simply a fact that the bible supports my beliefs and not yours. If you don't like that, then that's your problem, not mine.

Heidi, this thread is not about Mary per sey. It's about statues. Now answer the main question in the OP based on my post above in which I post what the Catechism says and how the information on the commandments is presented. Do we leave out the second commandment as the OP states or is this a distortion? Did the Jews make statues after God told them not to (according to your definition) thus (by your definition) makeing God out to contradict himself. Forbidding them to make statues and then commanding them to. Or is the prohibition against graven images properly interpreted as a prohibition against creating an image that you consider in your heart to be your God? It's not a difficult question. Don't let you bias blind you. Try to be intellectually honest just this once.

I have already explained the difference between the ark and people. But since you have still not answered my question about what God means by not erecting statues of people, Thess, then you won't understand my answer. And when you do answer it, if you do, your own questions about the ark will be answered. But it's apparent that you don't understand why God tells us not to erect statues of people. Otherwise you would answer it. Therefore, you will not understand the difference between the ark and the statues of people either.

 

[thessalonian]

I don't erect statues in honor of that person nor do I say that person was sinless. So again, your comparison has nothing to do with the catholic veneration of mary.

Do you understand why the bible tells us not to erect statues of people, Thess? or not? :o

And by the way, it's simply a fact that the bible supports my beliefs and not yours. If you don't like that, then that's your problem, not mine.

Heidi, this thread is not about Mary per sey. It's about statues. Now answer the main question in the OP based on my post above in which I post what the Catechism says and how the information on the commandments is presented. Do we leave out the second commandment as the OP states or is this a distortion? Did the Jews make statues after God told them not to (according to your definition) thus (by your definition) makeing God out to contradict himself. Forbidding them to make statues and then commanding them to. Or is the prohibition against graven images properly interpreted as a prohibition against creating an image that you consider in your heart to be your God? It's not a difficult question. Don't let you bias blind you. Try to be intellectually honest just this once.

I have already explained the difference between the ark and people. But since you have still not answered my question about what God means by not erecting statues of people, Thess, then you won't understand my answer. And when you do answer it, if you do, your own questions about the ark will be answered. But it's apparent that you don't understand why God tells us not to erect statues of people. Otherwise you would answer it. Therefore, you will not understand the difference between the ark and the statues of people either.

Yes, I have in fact answered it. The Ark is in a sense a graven image but it is not a god. The same prohibition against making images of things above (of which an angel might be said to be one) would apply to men as well. Now God in fact does command the making of angels. The only thing that makes sense in all of this is that images cannot be our Gods. Now in fact I asked my qestion first so I am not sure why my question should wait. Your tactic is generally to slide over and not mention it when you have been proven wrong. The Jewish Leaders DID bow down before the Ark of the Covenant. You said they did not. Admit you are wrong just once.

Answer my question.

 

[Heidi]

[quote="Heidi":8e660]


I don't erect statues in honor of that person nor do I say that person was sinless. So again, your comparison has nothing to do with the catholic veneration of mary.

Do you understand why the bible tells us not to erect statues of people, Thess? or not? :o

And by the way, it's simply a fact that the bible supports my beliefs and not yours. If you don't like that, then that's your problem, not mine.

Heidi, this thread is not about Mary per sey. It's about statues. Now answer the main question in the OP based on my post above in which I post what the Catechism says and how the information on the commandments is presented. Do we leave out the second commandment as the OP states or is this a distortion? Did the Jews make statues after God told them not to (according to your definition) thus (by your definition) makeing God out to contradict himself. Forbidding them to make statues and then commanding them to. Or is the prohibition against graven images properly interpreted as a prohibition against creating an image that you consider in your heart to be your God? It's not a difficult question. Don't let you bias blind you. Try to be intellectually honest just this once.

I have already explained the difference between the ark and people. But since you have still not answered my question about what God means by not erecting statues of people, Thess, then you won't understand my answer. And when you do answer it, if you do, your own questions about the ark will be answered. But it's apparent that you don't understand why God tells us not to erect statues of people. Otherwise you would answer it. Therefore, you will not understand the difference between the ark and the statues of people either.

Yes, I have in fact answered it. The Ark is in a sense a graven image but it is not a god. The same prohibition against making images of things above (of which an angel might be said to be one) would apply to men as well. Now God in fact does command the making of angels. The only thing that makes sense in all of this is that images cannot be our Gods. Now in fact I asked my qestion first so I am not sure why my question should wait. Your tactic is generally to slide over and not mention it when you have been proven wrong. The Jewish Leaders DID bow down before the Ark of the Covenant. You said they did not. Admit you are wrong just once.

Answer my question.

[/quote:8e660]

No, actually I did answer it. It is you who glided over it. According to your reasoning, then God was wrong about asking his people to make an ark and right about not erecting false images. Sorry, since God is never wrong, then there is clearly a difference between the ark and statues of people.

Once again, God gets the credit for the good that people do and that is why he tells us not to erect statues of people. So why do you disagree with God here? :o

 

[Soma-Sight]

TEAR DOWN YOUR IDOL CROSSES PROTESTANTS!

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found.
The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts
long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

 

[WMD]

It's custom in Japanese culture for people to bow in greeting... oh no! they must have "contempt for Scripture"!

It's custom in nearly every culture for family members, husbands/wives to kiss each other... oh no! they must all have "contempt for Scripture"!

I think you are missing the point.

The Japanese bow to each other in greeting not worship. Them bowing is showing respect just as us shaking hands show respect when greeting or meeting someone.

Your second comment there is pure sarcasm.

Catholics bow to statues of mary and kiss her as a form of worship. And if that isnt worship then I believe flocking to a small town to pray to an image of Mary appearing in a grill cheese is somewhat of false idol worship.

And who do the Japanes whorship as a God? :o The emperor, for one, which is precisely why they bow to people.

Then please tell us what the second commandment means, what Leviticus 26:1 means and what Romans 1:23 means. Thank you.

The verses you quoted, support my point and the point of the origional poster. "Do not make idols or set up an image...."

I am on the side of the origional poster here, but you ask me to defend idolotry? Me reference to bowing to one another in greeting was of modern day people greeting each other. In case you guys dont know they dont shake hands, they bow.

When they bow to the emperor because he is the emperor then that is worshipping a man which is forbiddan by God.

I am on your side here heidi.

 

[TruthMiner]

TEAR DOWN YOUR IDOL CROSSES PROTESTANTS!

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found.
The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts
long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

So?

 

[Heidi]

TEAR DOWN YOUR IDOL CROSSES PROTESTANTS!

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found.
The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts
long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

So?

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

 

[mutzrein]

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

So you worship an image of Christ on the cross? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Heidi]

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

So you worship an image of Christ on the cross? Is that what you are saying?

Christ wasn't a mortal man, in case you've forgotten. He is our Lord, not Peter, Paul or Mary.

 

[mutzrein]

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

So you worship an image of Christ on the cross? Is that what you are saying?

Christ wasn't a mortal man, in case you've forgotten. He is our Lord, not Peter, Paul or Mary.

Jesus tells us in scripture that we should worship the Father, no-one else.

 

[Heidi]

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

So you worship an image of Christ on the cross? Is that what you are saying?

Christ wasn't a mortal man, in case you've forgotten. He is our Lord, not Peter, Paul or Mary.

Jesus tells us in scripture that we should worship the Father, no-one else.

But he also makes it clear that he is the way to the Father. So you cannot come to the Father except through Christ. "No one can come to the Father except by me."

 

[TruthMiner]

TEAR DOWN YOUR IDOL CROSSES PROTESTANTS!

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found.
The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts
long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

So?

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

You worship an image of God?

 

[Heidi]

TEAR DOWN YOUR IDOL CROSSES PROTESTANTS!

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found.
The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts
long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

So?

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

You worship an image of God?

So you don't believe Jesus is Lord. Is that correct? :o

 

[TruthMiner]

TEAR DOWN YOUR IDOL CROSSES PROTESTANTS!

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found.
The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts
long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

So?

First the catholics have to get rid of their statues of people and have a humble leader instead of one who exalts himself to Our Holy Father. "He who wants to be first will be last and the last will be first." But at least the protestants know that Christ was the only sinless one whoever lived and his image on the cross is the only one we worship.

You worship an image of God?

So you don't believe Jesus is Lord. Is that correct? :o

What does that have to do with my question?

Are you saying you worship an image ?

 

[Heidi]

I don't worship an image. I worship my Lord. But the image is a reminder of who it is we worship. So what is a statue of mary a reminder of? :o