The Return of Christ

[RandyK]

Interpretting the bible with the bible itself is the most reliable and credible intepretation, corroborated with historical records. The closest reference of the four horsemen is found in Zach. 6:1-8, they were identified as "four spirits of heaven" and nothing more. But as for the white horse in particular, the closest reference is the prophecy of Jospeh.

Another angle is chiasum, a common literary stracture by which the second half mirrors the first half, the end corresponds to the beginning, the midpoint of the second half to the midpoint of the first half, and the middle is the climax. Many biblical books, sections and other ancient literature were written in chiastic structure. If you read Revelation in this way, then it'd make perfect sense that the sign of Christ's return appears at the beginning of the great tribulation, and Christ physically returns at the end of the great tribulation.

A structure cannot in itself determine the theology or the meaning, nor does a previous occasion using common symbols indicate what a different context means that uses the same symbols. There are 4 legs to a chair, 4 seaons, 4 directions, etc. The use of "4" in the Revelation does not mean it's referring to chairs, seasons, or directions. It could, but it's the context that would determine it.

The Bible is not a code book to unlock future prophecy. God is not gimmicky. There are motifs, yes, but not a code. Riddles, when used, are given to disguise things from those who don't deserve to know and yet inform those who should know. The Bible is a moral book--not something for the clever to unravel.

Yes, there is a structure in biblical literature. But interpreting things on that basis alone leads nowhere.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A structure cannot in itself determine the theology or the meaning, nor does a previous occasion using common symbols indicate what a different context means that uses the same symbols. There are 4 legs to a chair, 4 seaons, 4 directions, etc. The use of "4" in the Revelation does not mean it's referring to chairs, seasons, or directions. It could, but it's the context that would determine it.

The Bible is not a code book to unlock future prophecy. God is not gimmicky. There are motifs, yes, but not a code. Riddles, when used, are given to disguise things from those who don't deserve to know and yet inform those who should know. The Bible is a moral book--not something for the clever to unravel.

Yes, there is a structure in biblical literature. But interpreting things on that basis alone leads nowhere.

The bible is definitely not just about morality as morality changes over time and varies among cultures. What distinguishes the bible from other religious books is none other than the prophecies, they record God's plan for the universe he created, and they prove how true and trustworthy the bible is. God as the Creator is beyond time and space, he's not bound by time and space, he's eternal, therefore he knows the future, and he reveals it through mostly the prospective of His people, and we as God's people are called to discern the times through biblical lens.

Also, context doesn't always determine theology or meaning, there's the first mention rule in bible hermaneutics - when a word or term in the original hebrew or greek appears for the first time, its meaning in that context is carried over in all subsequent mentions. When Jesus quoted OT verses or made an OT reference, it's the OT context of such verses or reference that determine its meaning, not the NT one. The use of "four" may not mean anything, but in Zach. 6:1-8, it's the same four horses in Zachariah's vision, that's not a coincidence, it's definitely connected.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 6
The seven seals that only Jesus is worthy to open span the next fifteen chapters of Revelation. Chapter six only explains the first six seals as in a brief scenario of what is about to take place during the timing of Gods seven trumpet and seven vial chastisements. Hopefully many will come back to God through repentance during the time of His fierce wrath upon those of disobedience as God would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Jesus spoke to His Disciples in Matthew Chapter twenty four of those things all of us need to be watchful of before His return as no man knows the day nor the hour of His return. It is not until Chapter eight that we see the seventh seal being opened that begins with the seven trumpets and leads up to the seven vial judgments of Gods fierce wrath. The seventh trumpet begins the full explanation of what happens to those who walk in disobedience to God before the great and terrible day of the Lords return as the powers of heaven will be shaken, Joel 2:30, 31; Luke 21:26.

 

[RandyK]

The bible is definitely not just about morality as morality changes over time and varies among cultures.

However, the Bible is *not* about various cultures and a changing morality. It is about one God who consistently deals with the changes and decisions people make. The Bible is, in fact, about one God and one Morality. It is conformity to a single Divine Spirit.

What distinguishes the bible from other religious books is none other than the prophecies, they record God's plan for the universe he created, and they prove how true and trustworthy the bible is.

Prophecy is the outworking of God's promises. Since God consistently holds to what He has promised, prophecy consistently points back to what God has promised. To understand the Bible is to understand what God has said must be.

God as the Creator is beyond time and space, he's not bound by time and space, he's eternal, therefore he knows the future, and he reveals it through mostly the prospective of His people, and we as God's people are called to discern the times through biblical lens.

More than the Bible itself is the Spirit of God, who is present everywhere but discernible largely to those who conform to Him. To speak of God's transcendence is meaningless unless it is grounded in our experience in time and space.

We know that God simply is above time and space as we perceive it. It is meaningless to base truth on things that are "above us," except to say that God is, indeed, above us.

Also, context doesn't always determine theology or meaning, there's the first mention rule in bible hermaneutics - when a word or term in the original hebrew or greek appears for the first time, its meaning in that context is carried over in all subsequent mentions.

That's ludicrous. The 1st time God mentions a "garden," such as in Eden, does not determine how "garden" is used thereafter. It is context that determines how the word should be used.

That goes not just for "garden" but for all words used the 1st time in the Bible. For example, the 1st reference to "light" does not determine that all uses of the word "light" thereafter in the Bible refers to the creation of light on the 1st day.

When Jesus quoted OT verses or made an OT reference, it's the OT context of such verses or reference that determine its meaning, not the NT one.

That was my point, that *context* dictates how a word or idea is used--not a preliminary use, or even a "1st use."

The use of "four" may not mean anything, but in Zach. 6:1-8, it's the same four horses in Zachariah's vision, that's not a coincidence, it's definitely connected.

The use of "4" may have a similar construct. But it is context that determines how it is being used. For example, "4 horses" may refer to 4 major powers in the time of Zechariah. However, the use of "4 horses" in Revelation may similarly refer to 4 major powers used to change the world, but with 4 completely different entities following the time of John.

In the latter case it may be God's angels who are changing the world, and not 4 earthly powers, such as nations. It is, as I said, context that determines how "4" is being used, even if there is a similar kind of application. The entities involved may be completely different, depending on context.

 

[RandyK]

There must be, because of Rev. 1:10, 1:19, 4:1.

That does not follow. The use of *some* time sequences in the Revelation does not indicate *all* of the events mentioned in each vision follow in chronological order. Some visions may repeat the same time frame, as I said.

John indicated that after referring to 7 churches in his own time he would address future things. But this says nothing about the order in which he describes those future things.

For example, in Rev 11 we have an account of the 2nd Coming with the coming of God's Kingdom to earth. We have the same thing occurring in Rev 19, as well as references to that event in a number of visions, such as in Rev 14. There is no necessity to place the order of John's narrative in a strict chronological sequence simply because he speaks of "future" things or simply because some of the events he mentions do have a chronological sequence.

In addition, the apocalytic events were clearly written in chronological order, since "then" is frequently used. Take the seven trumpets for example, all NKJV:

"Then" may refer to the narrative sequence, and not to the order of events. They are the order in which John sees the visions, and not necessarily the chronological order of their fulfillment.

For example, John sees Christ's Return in Rev 11, and "then" sees the vision of the Dragon in Rev 12. The fact he sees the coming of the Kingdom in Rev 11, and "then" sees the vision of the Dragon and the Beast in Rev 12 and 13 does not necessitate we view the order John sees them as fulfilled in a strict chrononlogical sequence!

Did you know there is a Psalm ordered by Hebrew alphabet? The order of verses in Psalm 119 does not imply a chronological order except in the order the Psalmist delivers it.

It does not contain any sense of a prophetic timing sequence at all. Neither do the 7 Trumpets state explicitly that their ordering demands a chronological sequence.

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded ... (Rev. 8:5-7) (PS: the second for the seventh seal is titled PRELUDE to the seven trumpets.)
Then the second angel sounded: (Rev. 8:8)
Then the third angel sounded: (Rev. 8:10)
Then the fourth angel sounded: (Rev. 8:12)
Then the fifth angel sounded: (Rev. 9:1)
Then the sixth angel sounded: (Rev. 9:13)
Then the seventh angel sounded: (Rev. 11:15)

There is no need for a strict chronological order only when you deliberately ignore it.

The order or sequence in which John saw the Trumpets is a *vision* and not explicitly said to be fulfilled in chronological sequence. It is chronological as John sees the visions, but that does not mean they are fulfilled in a chronological sequence. You don't seem to understand the difference?

There are other reasons that prophesied events can be listed as a sequence other than an implied chronological sequence. They may be a simple list, ordered by alphabet, geography, or intensity. Chronology is only one of many reasons a list may be ordered.

 

[for_his_glory]

All things are in a chronological order according to what God lays out before us from Genesis to Revelation as one event can not proceed that of what has to happen first until the return of Christ that we must endure. It's when we read Rev 19:11-21 that explains the return of Christ after the seven trumpets have sounded and the seven vial judgements have been determined. The Bible is not that hard to understand, but what makes it hard to understand is listening to man's doctrines and man's interpretation instead of allowing the Holy Spirit teach you.

When reading Matthew 24 in what Jesus said to the Disciples in answering the three questions they asked of Him in vs. 3 we see the order of those things that must come to pass before the return of Christ. What Jesus tells them of the signs of the end of the age, even now we see these sorrows, but not to fear what must come, but to endure until Christ returns. It's much the same thing in the Book of Revelation as it expands in a greater detail of the outline Jesus gave in Matthew 24, but expands from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[RandyK]

All things are in a chronological order according to what God lays out before us from Genesis to Revelation as one event can not proceed that of what has to happen first until the return of Christ that we must endure. It's when we read Rev 19:11-21 that explains the return of Christ after the seven trumpets have sounded and the seven vial judgements have been determined. The Bible is not that hard to understand, but what makes it hard to understand is listening to man's doctrines and man's interpretation instead of allowing the Holy Spirit teach you.

When reading Matthew 24 in what Jesus said to the Disciples in answering the three questions they asked of Him in vs. 3 we see the order of those things that must come to pass before the return of Christ. What Jesus tells them of the signs of the end of the age, even now we see these sorrows, but not to fear what must come, but to endure until Christ returns. It's much the same thing in the Book of Revelation as it expands in a greater detail of the outline Jesus gave in Matthew 24, but expands from Genesis to Revelation.

I know you're not saying that the books of the Bible are in chronological order--that would be ludicrous. Can you imagine that the Psalms be viewed as chronologically following Ezra and Nehemiah? Can we see a Psalm of Moses following, chronologically, the restoration of Israel in the time of Ezra?

But saying that history, as depicted in the Bible, is chronological is a truism. I don't see the need to state a biblical chronological order at all? Time is, by definition, progressive and chronological--no need to state that!

If you're saying that there is roughly a chronological sequence in the book of Revelation I would agree. A narrative covering a number of events, even out of chronological order, would tend to begin early and end late, beginning with the time of John and ending with the Return of Christ. And that's what we see.

As I've been saying, I view the Revelation as not one but a series of visions, all told in a single narrative. The narrative follows the chrononlogical order, from Genesis, through Christ's earthly work, to the 2nd Coming. But the narrative includes visions that contain flashbacks and prolepses, as well as duplicative visions emphasizing different aspects. Stating it is all one chronological sequence is to deny that the visions often are distinct and have their own unique chronology of events.

There is, in my opinion, no necessity that we impose a chronological order on the sequence of visions or even on the sets of 7 that we see in the book. We must, as always, defer to what is explicitly said in the Revelation itself. Otherwise, we are "adding to" or "subtracting from" the message of the book, which we are told is unwise, dangerous, and even lethal on some occasions.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

However, the Bible is *not* about various cultures and a changing morality. It is about one God who consistently deals with the changes and decisions people make. The Bible is, in fact, about one God and one Morality. It is conformity to a single Divine Spirit.

Then as I said, the bible is not just about morality. Take the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector for instance, if it were, how was the tax collector justified while the pharisee wasn't? Pharisees, sadduccees and other religious elites were the role models of morality at the time, yet they were the biggest villains in the gospel accounts.

Prophecy is the outworking of God's promises. Since God consistently holds to what He has promised, prophecy consistently points back to what God has promised. To understand the Bible is to understand what God has said must be.

Not really, what you think as God's promises are God's written script for the future, it's already determined. It's not like you borrow something and promise to return it on time, or you accept a commission and promise to deliver a satisfactory result on time. As I said, God is eternal, he's beyond time and space, he doesn't progress as time goes by like humans do.

More than the Bible itself is the Spirit of God, who is present everywhere but discernible largely to those who conform to Him. To speak of God's transcendence is meaningless unless it is grounded in our experience in time and space.

We know that God simply is above time and space as we perceive it. It is meaningless to base truth on things that are "above us," except to say that God is, indeed, above us.

The spirit of God is incarnated in Jesus the son of God, and he's the only access to God. There's no way to figure out who or what God in any other way, you can't "ground" him in "our experience in time and space", that's you putting him in a box, and that is meaningless.

That's ludicrous. The 1st time God mentions a "garden," such as in Eden, does not determine how "garden" is used thereafter. It is context that determines how the word should be used.

That goes not just for "garden" but for all words used the 1st time in the Bible. For example, the 1st reference to "light" does not determine that all uses of the word "light" thereafter in the Bible refers to the creation of light on the 1st day.

Why not? If relativism is your cup of tea, drink it yourself, I'm not fond of it. I believe in the basic principle of Sola Scriptura, and the Torah - the first five books - being the foundation of the whole bible.

That was my point, that *context* dictates how a word or idea is used--not a preliminary use, or even a "1st use."

No it was not. In this passage below, John the Baptist was quoting prophet Isaiah 40:3, it was the context of Isaiah 40 that dictates the meaning of this quote, not the context of Matt. 3.

In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’ ” (Matt. 3:1-3)

The use of "4" may have a similar construct. But it is context that determines how it is being used. For example, "4 horses" may refer to 4 major powers in the time of Zechariah. However, the use of "4 horses" in Revelation may similarly refer to 4 major powers used to change the world, but with 4 completely different entities following the time of John.

In the latter case it may be God's angels who are changing the world, and not 4 earthly powers, such as nations. It is, as I said, context that determines how "4" is being used, even if there is a similar kind of application. The entities involved may be completely different, depending on context.

How do you know they're different? Why are they not the same four spirits in Zechariah's vision? You don't know that, "four earthly powers" is just your speculation, nothing in the context remotely suggests that. This book is titled Revelation as it reveals what was previously hidden, it's never meant to be a mystery itself, you're speculating because you lean on your own understanding instead of God's wisdom. Those four horses were clearly identified as four spirits of heaven, yet you deny that by changing them into four "major powers".

Then I answered and said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”And the angel answered and said to me, “These are four spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth. (Zech. 6:4-5)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That does not follow. The use of *some* time sequences in the Revelation does not indicate *all* of the events mentioned in each vision follow in chronological order. Some visions may repeat the same time frame, as I said.

What does not follow? Why does it not indicate "all" of the following events? Aren't you the one pounding on the importance of "context"? Well there is the context, Rev. 1:19 - "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this." How is that not a chronological order?

John indicated that after referring to 7 churches in his own time he would address future things. But this says nothing about the order in which he describes those future things.

Actually, there is a hidden time sequence regarding Jesus's coming in the seven letters. In the first five letters, his coming is a promise in the future as he WILL come, yet in the Philadelphia letter, he's on the move; in the Laodicea letter, he's right at the door. I don't think that's the same.

And by the way, the greek word for "shortly" or "quickly" is "tachy", as in "tachycardia "- rapid heart rate over 100 beats per minute. It doesn't mean "soon" or "imminent" as we commonly assume, but rather "rapid", "speedily" or "suddenly", like a lightning in the sky.

I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. (Rev. 2:5)
I will give you the crown of life (Rev. 2:10)
Repent, or else I will come to you quickly (Rev. 2:16)
But hold fast what you have till I come. (Rev. 2:25)
I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. (Rev. 3:3)
Behold, I am coming quickly! (Rev. 3:11)
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. (Rev. 3:20)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

For example, in Rev 11 we have an account of the 2nd Coming with the coming of God's Kingdom to earth. We have the same thing occurring in Rev 19, as well as references to that event in a number of visions, such as in Rev 14. There is no necessity to place the order of John's narrative in a strict chronological sequence simply because he speaks of "future" things or simply because some of the events he mentions do have a chronological sequence.

I don't know what bible version you're reading, I use NKJV only. Interestingly, After the second coming and God's kingdom at the end of chapter 11, chapter 12 begins with "now", and from thereon, it's always "then", one after another, and "after" in chapter 18 and 19. Also, in 4:1 John was in heaven, in 13:1 John was standing at the "sands of the sea", that's a reference of Abraham's descendants who'd be as numerous as the "sands of the sea". That's why I tend to believe in two parallel accounts, one from the perspective of heaven from chapter 4 to 11, the other from the persepctive of earth from chapter 13 to 19, chapter 12 is the transition or interlude. Nonetheless, in each account there's a coherent narrative in clear chronological order indicated by the "thens".

Now a great sign appeared in heaven (Rev. 12:1)
Then I stood on the sand of the sea ... (Rev. 13:1)
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion ... (Rev. 14:1)
Then I saw another sign in heaven (Rev. 15:1)
Then I heard a loud voice ... (Rev. 16:1)
Then one of the seven angels ... (Rev. 17:1)
After these things ... (Rev. 18:1)
After these things ... (Rev. 19:1)

"Then" may refer to the narrative sequence, and not to the order of events. They are the order in which John sees the visions, and not necessarily the chronological order of their fulfillment.

Why not? If God showed these events in order, but these events dont fulfill in such order, God would be lying.

For example, John sees Christ's Return in Rev 11, and "then" sees the vision of the Dragon in Rev 12. The fact he sees the coming of the Kingdom in Rev 11, and "then" sees the vision of the Dragon and the Beast in Rev 12 and 13 does not necessitate we view the order John sees them as fulfilled in a strict chrononlogical sequence!

As I said, it's "now" in 12:1, not "then", a new sequence of events starts from there. As the Dragon was cast down from HEAVEN to EARTH, John's vision followed him from heaven to earth, and that does necessitate an order of fulfillment - the Dragon went down, the Sea Beast rose up; the Sea Beast got hit in the head and miraculously healed, the Earth Beast rose up. The only bottom line is that all these apocalytic events from chapter 4 to 19 are confined in a 3.5 year span, which is mentioned 5 times in total - twice in chapter 11, twice in chapter 12, once in chapter 13. Those are not 17.5 years or 7 years, but the same 3.5 years.

Did you know there is a Psalm ordered by Hebrew alphabet? The order of verses in Psalm 119 does not imply a chronological order except in the order the Psalmist delivers it.

It does not contain any sense of a prophetic timing sequence at all. Neither do the 7 Trumpets state explicitly that their ordering demands a chronological sequence.

The order or sequence in which John saw the Trumpets is a *vision* and not explicitly said to be fulfilled in chronological sequence. It is chronological as John sees the visions, but that does not mean they are fulfilled in a chronological sequence. You don't seem to understand the difference?

There are other reasons that prophesied events can be listed as a sequence other than an implied chronological sequence. They may be a simple list, ordered by alphabet, geography, or intensity. Chronology is only one of many reasons a list may be ordered.

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (Num. 23:19)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is, in my opinion, no necessity that we impose a chronological order on the sequence of visions or even on the sets of 7 that we see in the book. We must, as always, defer to what is explicitly said in the Revelation itself. Otherwise, we are "adding to" or "subtracting from" the message of the book, which we are told is unwise, dangerous, and even lethal on some occasions.

A chronological order is not imposed by me or anybody, but the repeated use of "then" in the book, that's what's explicitly said, and you're in denial, which would only get yourself confused. How could it not be in chronological order when such an order is clearly set in Rev. 1:19, and a specific length of 3.5 years is repeated five times in various ways? You who lecture on me the importance of context, why don't you accept that context set at the very beginning of the book?

 

[RandyK]

A chronological order is not imposed by me or anybody, but the repeated use of "then" in the book, that's what's explicitly said, and you're in denial, which would only get yourself confused. How could it not be in chronological order when such an order is clearly set in Rev. 1:19, and a specific length of 3.5 years is repeated five times in various ways? You who lecture on me the importance of context, why don't you accept that context set at the very beginning of the book?

Clearly, you're ignoring the arguments I gave you.
1) "Then" is used to show the sequence of the narrative. "1st I saw this, then I saw that, then I saw that." This shows the order of the narrative, that John saw these visions in the order given.

That said, it is not saying that the fulfillment will 1st be this, then this, and then this. It is easy to prove otherwise.

"1st I saw a movie about WWI, then I saw a movie about the Civil War, then I saw a movie about Armageddon." The order in which I recount the movies I saw does not necessitate a chronological sequence from Civil War to Armageddon.

In the book of Revelation, there are many smaller visions, and several large visions. Some of the visions cover the same history. Some visions contain flashbacks to the time of Christ's earthly ministry. Some visions are prolepses, viewing the future as if it is already taking place. It is impossible to form a progressive sequential chronological link between them all.

2) Stating that there is mentioned a 3.5 year period in the Revelation is the product of its referring back to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign in Dan 7. That being the case, it says nothing about there being a necessary chronological sequence from the 1st Seal being opened to the Return of Christ at Armageddon. In fact, right in the middle of the book, in the 7th Trumpet of the 7th Seal, the Kingdom of Christ is viewed as already having come.

3) The order set for the book in dealing with the 7 churches in John's time 1st, and then dealing with future things does not in any way suggest a necessary chronological sequence for chapters 4-22. They can be in any sequence and still be future prophecies.

But I've already told you this, and you don't get it. Oh well. I'm hoping others will get it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Clearly, you're ignoring the arguments I gave you.
1) "Then" is used to show the sequence of the narrative. "1st I saw this, then I saw that, then I saw that." This shows the order of the narrative, that John saw these visions in the order given.

That said, it is not saying that the fulfillment will 1st be this, then this, and then this. It is easy to prove otherwise.

"1st I saw a movie about WWI, then I saw a movie about the Civil War, then I saw a movie about Armageddon." The order in which I recount the movies I saw does not necessitate a chronological sequence from Civil War to Armageddon.

In the book of Revelation, there are many smaller visions, and several large visions. Some of the visions cover the same history. Some visions contain flashbacks to the time of Christ's earthly ministry. Some visions are prolepses, viewing the future as if it is already taking place. It is impossible to form a progressive sequential chronological link between them all.

2) Stating that there is mentioned a 3.5 year period in the Revelation is the product of its referring back to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign in Dan 7. That being the case, it says nothing about there being a necessary chronological sequence from the 1st Seal being opened to the Return of Christ at Armageddon. In fact, right in the middle of the book, in the 7th Trumpet of the 7th Seal, the Kingdom of Christ is viewed as already having come.

3) The order set for the book in dealing with the 7 churches in John's time 1st, and then dealing with future things does not in any way suggest a necessary chronological sequence for chapters 4-22. They can be in any sequence and still be future prophecies.

But I've already told you this, and you don't get it. Oh well. I'm hoping others will get it.

If you believe there's a coherent narrative and context, there must be a coherent order of events, they don't happen simultaneously or randomly. The God I believe and worship is a God of clarity, not confusion. "Babylon" means confusion, God is the antithesis of that.

I agree that the kingdom has come in the 7th trumpet, but the 7th seal is the prelude to - or preparation of - the seven trumpets, as it's unequivocally stated: "So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Rev. 8:6) And I already stated my view of parallel accounts from different perspectives.

Also, ch. 20 is about the millennial kingdom, ch. 21-22 is about New Jerusalem, aka new heavens and new earth, they shouldn't be confused with the 3.5 year tribulation. I hope you're not a pretermist who believe the second coming is figurative and we're already living in the millennial kingdom, if you were, you're greatly deceived.

 

[RandyK]

If you believe there's a coherent narrative and context, there must be a coherent order of events, they don't happen simultaneously or randomly. The God I believe and worship is a God of clarity, not confusion. "Babylon" means confusion, God is the antithesis of that.

I agree that the kingdom has come in the 7th trumpet, but the 7th seal is the prelude to - or preparation of - the seven trumpets, as it's unequivocally stated: "So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Rev. 8:6) And I already stated my view of parallel accounts from different perspectives.

Also, ch. 20 is about the millennial kingdom, ch. 21-22 is about New Jerusalem, aka new heavens and new earth, they shouldn't be confused with the 3.5 year tribulation. I hope you're not a pretermist who believe the second coming is figurative and we're already living in the millennial kingdom, if you were, you're greatly deceived.

No, I'm not a Preterist, though I share some views with the Preterists on the focus of the Olivet Discourse on the contemporary generation. The Olivet Discourse clearly has a focus on some future events, as well.

Nor do I believe that Christ's Coming is "figurative." It is a quite literal event, signalling the end of the present age, subordinating all political governments to a semblance of Christian order. Some governments may offer a limited service to Christian morality, but only be nominally Christian or not Christian at all. But the world will experience a measure of peace for a thousand years.

Again, you don't seem to understand that the narrative John tells and the visions he sees have their own inherent chronological order. John is seeing these things in real time, and time is by nature chronological.

The fact John sees one vision 1st, and another vision next, and so on, has nothing to do with whether what the visions represent represent a single chrononlogical sequence in term of their fulfillment. One vision may be about Christ's Coming, another about the rise of Antichrist, and yet another may be a repeat of Christ's Coming. There is no necessary chronological order to the "fulfillments" of these visions, since many of them have their own distinct chronological sequence within themselves.

 

[Keraz]

How exactly have the first five seals opened? When and where were the four horsemen judgements?

The first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7
Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.

The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.

Then the Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

 

[follower]

The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.

Not all the martyrs. Only those who have died.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Again, you don't seem to understand that the narrative John tells and the visions he sees have their own inherent chronological order. John is seeing these things in real time, and time is by nature chronological.

The fact John sees one vision 1st, and another vision next, and so on, has nothing to do with whether what the visions represent represent a single chrononlogical sequence in term of their fulfillment. One vision may be about Christ's Coming, another about the rise of Antichrist, and yet another may be a repeat of Christ's Coming. There is no necessary chronological order to the "fulfillments" of these visions, since many of them have their own distinct chronological sequence within themselves.

I do understand, I've made my argument about two parallel accounts of the 3.5 year tribulation. There're plenty of such examples in the bible, Gen. 1 and 2 are two parallel accounts of the creation, the synoptic gospels and John are two parallel accounts of Jesus's ministry, the two Kings and the two Chronicles are two parallel accounts of Israel's history, Jospeh's two dreams, Pharaoh's two dreams, king Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the metallic statue and Daniel's vision of the four beasts, and so on. This is based on the "two or more witnesses principle" from the bible itself, that by the testimonies of two or more witnesses, a case is established.

For the record, I had argued repeatedly that the great tribulation is only 3.5 years, not 7 years, because I understand it's not one 3.5 year period after another as in a chronological order. When I read Rev. 11:15 where Christ's kingdom has already come, then it shifted from heaven to earth in the following chapters, I hypothesized that there might be parallel accounts, contrary to the seven year tribulation narrative; then I discovered the chiastic structure in the book that the second half mirrors the first half, which corroborated my hypothesis, then I drew my conclusion. You may dismiss "parallel accounts" and "chiastic structure" as irrelevant, but these are the key to bible study, they help connect the dots and show you the bigger picture, as shown in the summary below - not my opinion or some wild theories, but a simple summary of the book's contents.

A: Prologue 1:1-1:11
B: First Septet – Seven Churches 1:12-3:22
C: Second Septet – Seven Seals 4:1-8:1
D: Third Septet – Seven Trumpets 8:2-11:19
E: Fourth Septet – Seven Signs 12:1-15:1
D′: Fifth Septet – Seven Bowls 15:2-16:17
C′: Sixth Septet – Seven Condemnations of Babylon 16:18-19:10
B′: Seventh Septet – Seven sights of the victory of Christ’s Kingdom (I saw xyz ...) 19:11-22:5
A′: Epilogue 22:6-22:21

You on the other hand have just refuted the possibility of chronological order, while you've offered no other viable alternative. If these apocalyptic events are supposed to happen randomly or simultaneously, you haven't made any argument, so far you've just speculated.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7
Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.

No, those are merely "birth pains", wars, famines and plagues happen all the time on regional scales, those are NOT the end. The real signs for a definitive end are the completion of the great commission (Matt. 24:14) and the revival of Israel, symbolized by the fig tree (Matt. 24:33).

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Matt. 24:3-8)

 

[for_his_glory]

The first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7
Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.

The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.

Then the Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

The first four seals are various horses with riders of destruction that are revealed to John. This is not Gods wrath poured out as of yet as His fierce wrath begins with the first trumpet sounding after the breaking of the seventh seal that leads through all events of Gods seven trumpet chastisements and seven vial judgments that are warnings to those who have not repented and remain in disobedience to God. During the time of Gods fierce wrath of those who walk in disobedience He still leaves that door of repentance opened up until the time of Christ return when the door of salvation will be closed forever to those who refuse to repent.

The first four horses and their riders are an outline much like Matthew 24 being an outline of all things which must come first before the return of Christ. Each one represents that of a Roman governed enmity, Romans 8:7, that Satan works through that controls worldly domination as being that same Roman governed system the Pharisees and Scribes held close to as they had much favor from them for they brought the prophets, wise men and scribes before their Counsel to be persecuted and killed as they died a martyr’s death for preaching the Gospel of Christ, Matthew 23:33-39. We will study this system more in Chapter 13.

Jesus opens the seals and proceeds to reveal their meanings to John. The first four seals are that of four horses and what their riders bring with them. The first is false Christ, second to take peace from the earth, third is famine and the fourth is death and hell as found in the grave. Notice how each one is in succession of the other from first to last as already spoken by Christ in His Olivet disclosure in Matthew 24:4-13 as being the beginning of sorrows. There have always been sorrows, but never on a Global scale that will be seen during the timing of each rider of the four horses.

The fifth seal shows John a vision of all those who have already been slain for the word of God that are asleep in the grave waiting for God to avenge them as their spirits have returned back to God who preserves their spirit until the day of redemption when Jesus returns, Ecclesiastics 12:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. They are told to rest a little while until their fellow servants that will be killed needs to be fulfilled. These fellow servants are those who have the witness and testimony of Jesus that will be preaching salvation throughout the world during the time of great tribulation until the great and terrible day of the Lords return, Joel 2:31; Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know you're not saying that the books of the Bible are in chronological order--that would be ludicrous. Can you imagine that the Psalms be viewed as chronologically following Ezra and Nehemiah? Can we see a Psalm of Moses following, chronologically, the restoration of Israel in the time of Ezra?

But saying that history, as depicted in the Bible, is chronological is a truism. I don't see the need to state a biblical chronological order at all? Time is, by definition, progressive and chronological--no need to state that!

If you're saying that there is roughly a chronological sequence in the book of Revelation I would agree. A narrative covering a number of events, even out of chronological order, would tend to begin early and end late, beginning with the time of John and ending with the Return of Christ. And that's what we see.

As I've been saying, I view the Revelation as not one but a series of visions, all told in a single narrative. The narrative follows the chrononlogical order, from Genesis, through Christ's earthly work, to the 2nd Coming. But the narrative includes visions that contain flashbacks and prolepses, as well as duplicative visions emphasizing different aspects. Stating it is all one chronological sequence is to deny that the visions often are distinct and have their own unique chronology of events.

There is, in my opinion, no necessity that we impose a chronological order on the sequence of visions or even on the sets of 7 that we see in the book. We must, as always, defer to what is explicitly said in the Revelation itself. Otherwise, we are "adding to" or "subtracting from" the message of the book, which we are told is unwise, dangerous, and even lethal on some occasions.

I'm not talking about the whole Bible being in a chronological order, but that of the book of Revelation and the order of end time events as one following after another. Revelation consist of every prophecy from Genesis to Revelation being fulfilled before Christ returns.