The Rich Man & Lazarus

[JLB]

Though the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus may not have been given to teach about the afterlife, it can't be overlooked that the belief in a similar afterlife scenario that Jesus used in this story was prevailent in Jesus' day. Jesus used this Hellenistic concept that had become popular in the Judaism of his day to make a point to his audience and nowhere do we have it recorded that Jesus spoke against this concept of a Hadean realm that consisted of a a place of comfort and a place of torment where all of the dead lived awaiting judgment. Does that mean Jesus believed in and endorsed this concept; I don't know.

Hi ToT,

Here's one thing we need to consider. The idea that the dead were conscious and living in after world isn't taught in the OT Scriptures. I don't believe Jesus would have believed such a thing.

Jesus said, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God is the God of the living and not the dead.

Abraham was alive in Paradise.

This is what Jesus taught.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Oh believe me, I have a good understanding of the Abrahamic covenant. I've written on it. I have a question for you. What purpose is there for Jesus to suddenly break into this discourse

This is why -

The Pharisee's interrupted Jesus as he was teaching His disciples.

This teaching was for His Disciples [us] as well as the Pharisee's who were present.

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth.

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation.

The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.


JLB

Hi JLB,

I understand what you're saying, my question, however, is more to the larger context. I'm not asking about this one story/parable. In the larger discourse that is taking place where does this story fit? It would seem logical that this story would fit with the ones that preceded it. Whatever Jesus is trying to communicate with these stories it seems they should all communicate the His point. In the beginning of Luke 15 Jesus begins with the parable of the lost sheep. Then He moves to the lost coin. He speaks of rejoicing over finding what was lost. He says there is rejoicing in Heaven when one sinner repents. Then He moves on to the Prodigal Son, who did repent. From there He moves to the unfaithful steward. The Pharisees derided Him. They were the unfaithful stewards. After this He makes the comment about adultery which seems out of place, yet the Pharisees were adulterers. They were God's people and were committing adultery against God in various was. Then He moves on to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus means, God helps. The rich man represents the Pharisees. In the story the rich man is in Hades while the Lazarus (God helps) is in the kingdom with Abraham. Jesus had rebuked the Pharisees before telling them they would people coming from the east and the west sitting down with Abraham while they were cast out.

I think a progression can be seen in these parables. We see the lost being searched for, then repentance, then the stewardship being taken away and finally the former stewards cast out. It is within this context that I was asking you about the parable. If the story is about the afterlife how does it fit into the larger context of the previous chapters?

 

[Butch5]

Though the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus may not have been given to teach about the afterlife, it can't be overlooked that the belief in a similar afterlife scenario that Jesus used in this story was prevailent in Jesus' day. Jesus used this Hellenistic concept that had become popular in the Judaism of his day to make a point to his audience and nowhere do we have it recorded that Jesus spoke against this concept of a Hadean realm that consisted of a a place of comfort and a place of torment where all of the dead lived awaiting judgment. Does that mean Jesus believed in and endorsed this concept; I don't know.

Hi ToT,

Here's one thing we need to consider. The idea that the dead were conscious and living in after world isn't taught in the OT Scriptures. I don't believe Jesus would have believed such a thing.

Jesus said, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God is the God of the living and not the dead.

Abraham was alive in Paradise.

This is what Jesus taught.


JLB

Hi JLB,

If you look at that passage in context Jesus is saying that to prove the resurrection, not that Abraham was alive.

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:36-38 KJV)

He's clearly quoting it to prove the resurrection

 

[Brother Mike]

If Jesus brought new spiritual principles is something I won't address here, however, I will say that whatever we think He meant I don't believe He's going to contradict previous revelation

Eph_3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

One has to ask what the previous revelation is? A Jewish concept of Hell (Which they pretty much understood) There were things introduced by Jesus that we did not have full words to covey the meaning. On. For example we were revealed the whole demonic Kingdom and it's operation. Nothing much was known about this Kingdom Until Jesus came.

This expression here for example took several English words to convey.......Just to get a grasp on the concept of the power of it.

huper ek ex perissos huper

Over, abounding, superior and beyond - Out of- over and above, more than is necessary, super added, exceeding abundantly, supremely -Over, abounding, superior and beyond

There was just not any sufficient language for Paul to convey this so He used the Greek the best he could. What was reveled to him by the Holy Spirit was to powerful for our human language to bare.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

So when looking at things like Hell, we need to consider the limitations of the language to bare new spiritual standards. In that we understand the concepts without going to deep in the language itself.

We get into error when we think that with the Power and revelation Jesus brought us, that any language at the time could perfectly convey.

I think a progression can be seen in these parables. We see the lost being searched for, then repentance, then the stewardship being taken away and finally the former stewards cast out. It is within this context that I was asking you about the parable. If the story is about the afterlife how does it fit into the larger context of the previous chapters?

First we must understand that everything Mark, Luke, John, and Matthew had written was much later, Hand picked by the Holy Spirit. We would like things to be in perfect order but they were are the most important concepts that Jesus taught and the World need to know. If everything was recorded that Jesus said and did, the World would not contain the books that it all be written in.

So, everything is hand picked, and anything mentioned of something like what Hell is like before Jesus ascends to the cross is in there for a very specific reason.

Each Gospel account goes in a general chronological order. However not every account was given to every Apostle and not everything given in the same detail. Luke just happen to be given the detail about what Abraham said while in the region of Hell.

If you look at that passage in context Jesus is saying that to prove the resurrection, not that Abraham was alive.

Well, Jesus quoted Abraham as saying........... So Jesus saw this as it had taken place. Halve the reliegious leaders believed that Abraham was in Heaven with God, Jesus smashes this myth as nobody has ascended to Heaven just yet but went into the Jewish land of the dead. In that place people are very much alive and apparently there is water there. A place we have no need to want to visit.

by saying Abraham was in Hell (Which he was) that really messed with the Sadducee's who did not believe in a resurrection and Jesus put their hero right in Hell, if there was no resurrection then Abraham would have to stay.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Whatever Jesus is trying to communicate with these stories it seems they should all communicate the His point.

The point is clear, if you read the context.

I keep hearing about some "greater context", as if this "greater context" is going to diminish what Jesus actually said.

I think a progression can be seen in these parables. We see the lost being searched for, then repentance, then the stewardship being taken away and finally the former stewards cast out. It is within this context that I was asking you about the parable.

9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!'

10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15:10

The angels rejoice because a sinner does not die and go to hell, but rather he repents.

Amen!


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.' " Luke 15:32

Likewise, the son repents and comes home and is not lost.

Lost for all eternity in hell fire.

Amen.


So according to the greater context and the immediate context of the story of the rich man and Lazarus, we see that even though a person is rich in material wealth, doesn't necessarily mean they are blessed with the blessing of Abraham.

As we so clearly see from glimpse into the hereafter that Jesus gave us.





JLB

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

lets remember not all the disciples walked on water.

 

[reba]

This time i am closing this thread. The word games being played are not acceptable. I will do some editing , deletions etc in the AM This rudeness amongst Christians is disgusting.

 

[Free]

This passage could be either a parable or a true story, and since we cannot know for certain, people really need to stop speaking as though they do know for certain.

This is the only "parable" where Jesus names the actors in it. Although that is significant, it does not follow that it is therefore a true story. At the same time, Jesus always used, as far as I can remember, situations, objects, etc., that were familiar to his listeners. Indeed it is necessary for the point to be understood. So it would be somewhat inconsistent that he would use a concept of Hades unfamiliar to his listeners. Regardless, I think that in this instance his concept of Hades need not be what his listeners believed, as his point(s) have little to do with the afterlife and Hades.


Errr....oops. I was writing this before you closed the thread....

 

[Sparkey]

Respectfully, I am about to disagree with the thought of putting more effort into edits and thread closures than our Members are willing to put in by themselves. If our members are not able to abide by the simple terms of service here, not able to see that we are commanded by our King, to respect others, and if they insist on "sharpening their swords of iron, not against iron, but against flesh and blood?"

Their playground privileges need to be taken away. Close and leave it closed, is my vote.

Posted in another thread:

The conscience of our brothers:
A man consulted a doctor. “I’ve been misbehaving, Doc, and my conscience is troubling me,” he complained.

“And you want something that will strengthen your willpower?” asked the doctor.

“Well, no,” said the fellow. “I was thinking of something that would weaken my conscience.”

What's the prescription for this amusing anecdote? Would it be a healthy dose of Romans 14? Paul's prescription in this chapter is far from that sought by the fellow just mentioned. He does not praise the overly sensitive conscience of the weak, nor does he condemn it.

He accepts Christians where they are in their walk of faith and pleads with us to do the same. It's a chapter about the relationship between the strong and the weak.​

WE are to consider our brothers. Period.

What Marine Sergeant allows a donnybrook to break out between his privates during a drill? Do we not owe more to Jesus than a soldier does to a drill sergeant?

Contend for the faith? Could this be twisted so that we contend for the disunity of the faith?

I've found myself recently saying:

I am still a baby. Just learning to talk. See what I have done? I took a step. Big-boy Sparrow in his big-boy pants. Me is good boy.

May I mock myself this way? Sure, I don't mind.

BUT would I love it if you did? Absolutely not! Because as yet, I do not love you as I love me. That's my problem, that's the obstacle that we together face, is it not?

Contend for the unity of the faith.
[Rom 12:10 KJV] [Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

[Phl 2:3 KJV] [Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

[1Pe 1:22 KJV] Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

[Jhn 13:35 KJV] By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

[Hbr 13:1 KJV] Let brotherly love continue.

Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

[reba]

Thank you [MENTION=13142]Sparrowhawke[/MENTION] i agree. I will ask how fair is it to close the threads to those who comply with the spirit of the ToS and Stickies?

 

[Sparkey]

I will ask how fair...

You know me. I am working even now. WE have our Father's business to do! Love change with me and look up, our Redeemer draweth nigh. Ever heard of the "Fall Forward Fast" method? More later.