• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

The Rich Man & Lazarus

Oh believe me, I have a good understanding of the Abrahamic covenant. I've written on it. I have a question for you. What purpose is there for Jesus to suddenly break into this discourse

This is why -

The Pharisee's interrupted Jesus as he was teaching His disciples.

This teaching was for His Disciples [us] as well as the Pharisee's who were present.

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth.

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation.

The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.


JLB
 
Oh yes yes...SEND LAZARUS! Pompous wealthy attitude that got him there in the first place and he still doesnt see, story or not.



WOW! a new and very interesting thought new to me anyway :thumbsup
 
I suppose there are always new and unique ways of looking at things.

:chin
 
Oh yes yes...SEND LAZARUS! Pompous wealthy attitude that got him there in the first place and he still doesnt see, story or not.



WOW! a new and very interesting thought new to me anyway :thumbsup


Because of the nastiness of some of this thread i want to be very clear my post was not sarcasm ... Something new was pointed out to me and i think it is great how His Word just keeps teaching if we look...
 
Oh yes yes...SEND LAZARUS! Pompous wealthy attitude that got him there in the first place and he still doesnt see, story or not.



WOW! a new and very interesting thought new to me anyway :thumbsup


Because of the nastiness of some of this thread i want to be very clear my post was not sarcasm ... Something new was pointed out to me and i think it is great how His Word just keeps teaching if we look...

Your mod activities are appreciated very much, [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION]. Yes, it's good to let a Scripture passage speak for itself, like you say.
 
Because of the nastiness of some of this thread i want to be very clear my post was not sarcasm ... Something new was pointed out to me and i think it is great how His Word just keeps teaching if we look...

We need to keep an eye on these people. edited It's hard on me also Reba, I feel ya.


his is why -

The Pharisee's interrupted Jesus as he was teaching His disciples.

This teaching was for His Disciples [us] as well as the Pharisee's who were present.

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth.

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation.

The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.

Spot on there as always. Line upon line.

Mike.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] fear not, recieved as intended. I understand there are problems here with this sort of thing but after a year or so of reading what each has to say, its not too hard to tell what spirit these words are delivered in. Much thanks and bless you for even taking the time to clarify.
 
[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] fear not, recieved as intended. I understand there are problems here with this sort of thing but after a year or so of reading what each has to say, its not too hard to tell what spirit these words are delivered in. Much thanks and bless you for even taking the time to clarify.

We can't read people's minds, eh?
 
Hell is something that Jesus taught about throughout the gospels.

Here is a quote from Him -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

When I look at Scripture I see major players and major themes throughout. No, this is not a teaching about the Nature of God. But I do see repeated themes. When it comes to that of shepherds, sheep and goats? There is another Word from the Word of Trust that comes to this one. It is from the song. You know the one. The Song of songs.

There we see a woman who looks for her love. She asks him, "Where do I find you," and confesses her desire to kiss him in a manner that is bespoken of as more than a sisterly kiss. His voice is heard, and he almost chides her with the first phrase, "If you don't know..." I know. I know that you know too. Let's read together:

Looking at the Book as if it were a poem, we see two protagonists featured; a woman and a man. We see a progress from courtship to consumption. For instance, the man proclaims: "As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters." The woman answers: "As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

The quote that addresses the memory link that you have stirred in me is about sheep and goats:

[Sgs 1:2-4, 7-8 KJV]Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love [is] better than wine. Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name [is as] ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee. Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

... Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest [thy flock] to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions? If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents.

Notice that she, the Shulamite, does not heard lambs but kids. The word denotes young, female goats. If my understanding of the post exile book known as the Song of Solomon is correct, what we may be looking at is in some ways prophetic of the relationship that forms between Christ and the Church. A quick comparison of various verses may be used to support this view. Recall what Paul taught about the mystery spoken of in the beginning where two become one flesh, see also: Revelation 3:20, which speaks of knocking at doors, as does Song 5:2. John 7:38 speaks of "living water," using the same language found in places like Jeremiah 17:13, Jeremiah 2:13, and Zechariah 14:8, and the phrase is used poetically in Song 4:15. There is talk about a certain perfume in the Song and that is also mentioned elsewhere. cf. John 12:3 and Mark 14:3 with its mention in Song 1:12; 4:13; 4:14.

Do we (those called out ones, called those "of the way" in earliest days and "Christians" later) who are comprised of both Gentile and Jew, have goats? Do we lead kids (young female goats)? Well, certainly we do. Not to put too much of a point on it but there are some old-man goats here, and I could be counted as one. May I strive to change and be reckoned in grace as something other than this?

That is the hope that I have for me. Shall I not count that same hope for thee? I shall count for thee as well for God has shed abroad His Grace and I have witnessed this in the presence of others even more than I see in myself.

How about you?
 
Hell is something that Jesus taught about throughout the gospels.

Here is a quote from Him -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

When I look at Scripture I see major players and major themes throughout. No, this is not a teaching about the Nature of God. But I do see repeated themes. When it comes to that of shepherds, sheep and goats? There is another Word from the Word of Trust that comes to this one. It is from the song. You know the one. The Song of songs.

There we see a woman who looks for her love. She asks him, "Where do I find you," and confesses her desire to kiss him in a manner that is bespoken of as more than a sisterly kiss. His voice is heard, and he almost chides her with the first phrase, "If you don't know..." I know. I know that you know too. Let's read together:

Looking at the Book as if it were a poem, we see two protagonists featured; a woman and a man. We see a progress from courtship to consumption. For instance, the man proclaims: "As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters." The woman answers: "As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

The quote that addresses the memory link that you have stirred in me is about sheep and goats:

[Sgs 1:2-4, 7-8 KJV]Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love [is] better than wine. Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name [is as] ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee. Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

... Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest [thy flock] to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions? If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents.

Notice that she, the Shulamite, does not heard lambs but kids. The word denotes young, female goats. If my understanding of the post exile book known as the Song of Solomon is correct, what we may be looking at is in some ways prophetic of the relationship that forms between Christ and the Church. A quick comparison of various verses may be used to support this view. Recall what Paul taught about the mystery spoken of in the beginning where two become one flesh, see also: Revelation 3:20, which speaks of knocking at doors, as does Song 5:2. John 7:38 speaks of "living water," using the same language found in places like Jeremiah 17:13, Jeremiah 2:13, and Zechariah 14:8, and the phrase is used poetically in Song 4:15. There is talk about a certain perfume in the Song and that is also mentioned elsewhere. cf. John 12:3 and Mark 14:3 with its mention in Song 1:12; 4:13; 4:14.

Do we (those called out ones, called those "of the way" in earliest days and "Christians" later) who are comprised of both Gentile and Jew, have goats? Do we lead kids (young female goats)? Well, certainly we do. Not to put too much of a point on it but there are some old-man goats here, and I could be counted as one. May I strive to change and be reckoned in grace as something other than this?

That is the hope that I have for me. Shall I not count that same hope for thee? I shall count for thee as well for God has shed abroad His Grace and I have witnessed this in the presence of others even more than I see in myself.

How about you?

I think that the Song of Solomon is very instructive.

From an interpretation perspective I do think it's about the relationship between Christ and Israel rather than Christ and the church.

But it can certainly be applied profitably to the New Testament believer in his or her relationship with the Lord.

Blessings.

(PS: I hope I'm not too off-topic.)
 
(PS: I hope I'm not too off-topic.)

That's a call that I don't quite know how to make. The topic overtly is a single passage, but the topic includes teachings of Jesus about our life. That's a broad topic and part of that discussion includes stories and literal truths. It included hermeneutics and all manner of things but mostly? What is also being spoken here of includes an observation that I think is profoundly astute, but not as astute as The Messiah and his observations about his audience.

Who was this passage addressed to? Stovebolts has advanced that Jesus was speaking to both audiences. Pharisees and Disciples. Lesson was given with this in mind. Now, here some guy comes, thousands of years later and speaks, again with multiple subjects in mind. Who am I addressing, specifically? What is my exact meaning regarding heaven, regarding hell, regarding prophecy and the Word of Trust, delivered unto us by the Trustworthy One?

May I make myself clear? Or would it be better that I pray, regarding those who are given an ear to hear, and command, "Let them hear." Now, am I addressing angels? And if so, am I doing so with the full knowledge that they are greater than I am? Am I speaking in the NAME? You tell me. That is my intent. Yet I know that I misspeak, am confronted with typo's even as my fingers press the keys and I realize that my mouth is actually shut and I remain silent even as I hope to be heard.

Maybe this is the wiser course. Again, I am dumbfounded about how it is that God may even consider men when it comes to His Holy WORD.

My fear speaks too: Brother, you have gone too far.
My reply? Mayhaps I have. God knows.
 
(PS: I hope I'm not too off-topic.)

That's a call that I don't quite know how to make. The topic overtly is a single passage, but the topic includes teachings of Jesus about our life. That's a broad topic and part of that discussion includes stories and literal truths. It included hermeneutics and all manner of things but mostly? What is also being spoken here of includes an observation that I think is profoundly astute, but not as astute as The Messiah and his observations about his audience.

Who was this passage addressed to? Stovebolts has advanced that Jesus was speaking to both audiences. Pharisees and Disciples. Lesson was given with this in mind. Now, here some guy comes, thousands of years later and speaks, again with multiple subjects in mind. Who am I addressing, specifically? What is my exact meaning regarding heaven, regarding hell, regarding prophecy and the Word of Trust, delivered unto us by the Trustworthy One?

May I make myself clear? Or would it be better that I pray, regarding those who are given an ear to hear, and command, "Let them hear." Now, am I addressing angels? And if so, am I doing so with the full knowledge that they are greater than I am? Am I speaking in the NAME? You tell me. That is my intent. Yet I know that I misspeak, am confronted with typo's even as my fingers press the keys and I realize that my mouth is actually shut and I remain silent even as I hope to be heard.

Maybe this is the wiser course. Again, I am dumbfounded about how it is that God may even consider men when it comes to His Holy WORD.

Another very thoughtful contribution!

I think as far as the account of the rich man and Lazarus is concerned, the strongly Jewish background of the Lord Jesus' hearers should also be taken into account, anyway.

Blessings.
 
"We know that we are to come together in spirit and in truth," says the man who just paused to cook himself some Pacific Golden Chanterelle Mushrooms.

"I'm must admit that I don't quite know how to do this," he confesses. Except to say, "By casting our eyes to Him who is Worthy and remaining fixed upon Him."

Blessings to you. Ask blessing for me too as I break fungus and eat with thanks in my heart.
 
Years ago, I spoke to my sister and told her about a trip that I had planned on taking to go up to Vancouver BC and to meet a couple online friends. That was back when my boys, now grown, were young. We played online games together. During our gaming excursions, I met many others, two of which were named, "Herman and Anthony."

When I spoke to my sister to tell her of my plan and to invite her to travel with us I also, knowing her love for a variety of cuisine and her worldwide travels, mentioned that our friends were Chinese.

She replied, "That's so cute. Two little old chinese men named Herman and Anthony."

I explained that they were young men, college students and that we met online playing a game and she again replied,

"I just can't get that out of my head. Two little old Chinese men, named Herman and Anthony."

So I told her in greater detail about how we met online and how they were both under 25 years of age and that yes, they were Chinese but that was not their real names, they in fact had many names. Anthony, for instance was also named Xu and also called "Loss" in game and online. But she would have none of it. She had become fixated on the image as it first appeared in her mind.

Eventually I came to understand and surrendered and asked, "Would you like to go visit and eat with my two old Chinese friends named Herman and Anthony?"

She said, no, that she was busy but thanked me for asking.

Now comes the obvious question: How did I gain understanding of my sister? I resisted her and continued listening.
 
Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth. Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed. The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation. The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.

To focus on wealth I think misses the bigger picture and the real point Jesus kept making. Remember that Jesus was correcting not only the thinking of the Pharisees but also of the Judeans as they both shared a common conviction that theirs was the Kingdom of Heaven because they were Abraham's seed. Luke 13:24-30 addresses Jesus' point in this matter explicitly. Outsiders from the nations would get to be in the Kingdom with Abraham and the prophets while those who considered themselves sons of the Kingdom would be on the outside weeping.

The issue was not really about riches as it was about the blessing of the Kingdom of God and who would get to be a part of it. Riches, or the love of it was one of the things that Jesus implied that the leaders had become beholden to and that was a hinderance to them loving and obeying God thru Moses and the Prophets.
 
To focus on wealth I think misses the bigger picture and the real point

Exactly Brother. I think you got it now!

The Pharisee's who were greedy, thought because they were rich in material wealth, that they were Blessed with the blessing of Abraham.

But like you pointed out, they missed the bigger picture.

Jesus gave them a glimpse into reality.

The fact that Lazarus was with Abraham, and the rich was in hell, must have shocked them.


JLB
 
The fact that Lazarus was with Abraham, and the rich was in hell, must have shocked them.

Right, which was my Point. Jews (Most) believed that the Term Abraham Bosom (Resting in a dining place) was Heaven and that Abraham was with God. Jesus told them exactly where Abraham was and Without Jesus Abraham and they were going to end up there. Jesus went to preach to those in Hell, Got them up out of there for 3 days.
 
Thank you, Stove! I am reminded of another parable. This one is about silver talents, or is it?

Ahh yes, those who have been given a blessing, but refuse to do anything with it to help those in need much like those found in Luke 16:1-14 that use the same blessings to build their own enterprise for self gain and notariaty; who unjustly use that which God has given them for a specific purpose for their own gain at the cost of those in need.

Based on what Luke 16 teaches, what happens to such a person?


JLB

Based on Luke 16, the rich man goes to hell and the poor man gets carried to paradise.
The moral of the story is that what we do here, now matters to God. Their are two ages. The present age, and the age to come. Simply put, we live, then we die and how we live our lives today will be an indication of where we'll end up in the age to come.

It seems that you and [MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] are more concerned about proving that hell exists, and what frustrates me is that both of you are making snide remarks about anyone who believes Luke 16 is a parable. A parable isn't a fair tale, and we ought not look at them as fairy tales. They are stories with intent and they hold much value in many ways. Much like this post, parables are not intended to dot every i and cross every t and if looked at in the wrong lens, can present a whole different narrative.

Now then, I view this story as a parable, and I see much value in this parable. I would go as far as to say that as for it's meaning, we would agree in probably every area worth anything. But to argue that something is a real event when holding it as a parable does not change it's meaning or intent one bit... well, that's arguing just to argue.

If you or anyone else holds any concerns about me viewing this as a parable, please bring them up and let me see if I can't address any of your concerns.

Thank you.
 
The Pharisee's who were greedy, thought because they were rich in material wealth, that they were Blessed with the blessing of Abraham.

I agree, dnd we could take that one step further. Deuteronomy 4:6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”

When we look at the Pharisees, we see them trying to receive blessings from God by obeying his commandments to a fault. Deut 28 teaches that God's blessings and God's curses / exile from the land are dependent upon how Israel obeyed the commandments. When you look at the political nature of Jerusalem, it wasn't pretty. The Jews were held charge of having the very words of God to be a light to the nations. In that sense they were very wealthy.

But you can't depend on your wealth because with God, it's about relationships and Luke 16 is about what one does with the wealth that has been given him. The rich man didn't help the man in need, and this echo's Jesus, "I didn't come for the rightous" and everyone knows the rest of that verse.

We are blessed to be a blessing to others and Israel used those blessings to their own destruction.
 
Back
Top