The Root of It

[lovely]

Hi guibox,

guibox wrote:

Do you see what I'm getting at?

"What you are doing is separating the two natures ('spiritual death' and being 'physically alive') in this life, saying that one can still be spiritually dead but alive, but making them THE SAME in the afterlife. You are assuming that one not only defines the other, but BECOMES the other after I physically die.

This is illogical.

If I am spiritually dead but still alive, I have not suffered the full wages of sin for sin is contrasted with 'life'. Romans 6:23 is not talking about my physical life or death for we all suffer the same fate. It is talking about the afterlife.

So though I may be 'spiritually dead' but still living, this 'deadness' or 'life' carries over into the afterlife in our second nature: for the righteous, eternal life; for the wicked: death.

Life and death are consummately fulfilled in eternity at the resurrection and judgment."

Romans 6 speaks to being dead to sin, and alive to God now. It's a call to obedience for the regenerate. Ezekiel 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. " Christ's death, and resurrection, are being used to illustrate the dead man dying to sin, and being raised again into spiritual life, and walking in life while still being in the flesh.

This passage actually shows that our spiritual life, or spiritual death, are determined here in belief, or unbelief. The wages of our sin, death...but we all will die...this is spiritual death. Gift of God is eternal life...I will die, but I will be given eternal life...this is spiritual life.

Those who are ALIVE here spiritually will be physically resurrected and ALIVE spiritually for all eternity finally free from the sinful flesh....these will be given a new glorified body that is free from sin. They will be free in body, and in spirit. LIFE! (God's Pardon)

Those who are DEAD spiritually here, but physically alive, will remain in their spiritual DEADNESS even once they are physically resurrected unto eternal wrath apart from God. They will be resurrected, but remain in sinful flesh, and in a DEAD spiritual state apart from God....though having the full knowledge of who God is at this point. DEATH! (God's Wrath)

So, spiritual life and death are consummately fulfilled after everyone's resurrection and judgement...in the pardon, or the sentence, based on the belief, and unbelief, that should correlate with the deeds of obedience or sin here according to Romans 6. Good deeds done unto God by those who have no condemnation (acts free from self-righteousness, and sin due to flesh), and sin done in condemnation by those who remained condemned. (all acts, blatant sin, and good done in self-righteousness)

The Lord bless you.

 

[guibox]

Hello lurve-ly (sorry it's the French in me...)

Romans 6 speaks to being dead to sin, and alive to God now. It's a call to obedience for the regenerate. Ezekiel 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. " Christ's death, and resurrection, are being used to illustrate the dead man dying to sin, and being raised again into spiritual life, and walking in life while still being in the flesh..

However, we must be careful to not interpret this 'alive in the spirit' as our spiritual condition on this earth as our nature that we take into the afterlife. Were that so we would have a contradiction, would we not? Doesn't the Bible say 'and the spirit returns to God who gave it'?

What you are saying is that wicked man is alive in body but dead in spirit now AND in the afterlife but that cannot be for wicked man's spirit also leaves his body (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

This passage actually shows that our spiritual life, or spiritual death, are determined here in belief, or unbelief. The wages of our sin, death...but we all will die...this is spiritual death. Gift of God is eternal life...I will die, but I will be given eternal life...this is spiritual life...

Exactly, but the wicked are NOT made 'spiritually alive' hence, they cannot experience 'spiritual 'alive-deadness'. Sin brings death. Were it not for us being made spiritually alive, this 'death' would conquere our nature and we would 'perish in the grave' 1 Corinthians 15:13-23). The wicked must still experience this death.

Those who are DEAD spiritually here, but physically alive, will remain in their spiritual DEADNESS even once they are physically resurrected unto eternal wrath apart from God. They will be resurrected, but remain in sinful flesh, and in a DEAD spiritual state apart from God....though having the full knowledge of who God is at this point. DEATH! (God's Wrath).

It is a creative hypothesis but is devoid of biblical support. You forget what the resurrections do. "All who are in their graves shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation' Everlasting life is fully realized and immortality is given in a spiritual body. This spiritual body is a gift from God that is needed to get into heaven (see vs 40-50). The wicked do NOT receive any spiritual body but are still mortal for they have not 'passed from death into life'. Regardless of the fact that they are still 'spiritually dead' doesn't change the sinfulness of their nature and the effects the fires will have on it.

The other thing you must realize is that the Bible makes it clear the difference between 'dead' in any form and 'alive' in any form. To be alive but spiritually 'dead' is not to be dead at all. The fate of the wicked is not described by Romans 6 (of which doesn't deal with the inherent nature of man at all) but by clear teaching and usage of the words 'death' ,'destroy' 'destruction' and 'perish'. Such words do not denote 'living in a dead spiritual state'

 

[lovely]

Hi Tan,

I am going to try to break this up because it is long. In my defense, it is so long because I printed the texts to make it easier on you. I would like it if you would read my post to guibox, because I believe that Romans 2 does speak to spiritual life, and spiritual death.

Part One...

Paul's defense of the resurrection, believed by the Way, against the Sadducees. They were the sect of Jews who did not believe in resurrection, and did not believe that the Pentateuch taught it at all.

Acts 24:1-21
1 And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul.
2 And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence,
3 We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.
4 Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words.
5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
8 Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.
9 And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.
answers for his life and teachings
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
20 Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council,
21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

We know that Paul was in Rome because he used his citizenship to get to Rome and come before Felix. Just prior to that he addressed the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem which was made up of both Sadducees, and Pharisees. Now we know that the Sadducees denied supernatural things like the resurrection, and the Pharisees didn't...though they did pride themselves on tradition and law. Anyway, Paul used this because he knew, by Ananias' strike to his mouth which was an illegal action, that he would not get a fair hearing. Paul rebuked him, wrongly, and then later acknowledge he was wrong, but only just then found out it was Anaias. Paul wisely created a split in this hearing, and the commander took him to the barracks.

Acts 23:6-10

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

Paul was being persecuted for preaching the resurrection as is taught by a sect they referred to as The Way (believers). Notice Acts 24:14-15 "14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Paul was in the center of proper belief for the Jews in reality: He was walking in the Way, and believing the hope, the same hope of the Old Testament prophets as he states, of the resurrection...of both the just and the unjust. Let's look at the prophets. Job 19:25-27

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

Job believed in a resurrection unto judgement.

Daniel 12:2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel prophesied of a resurrection unto everlasting contempt.

Acts 26:1-8
1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Paul is heard by Agrippa now, and again defends God's raising of the dead for which he claims is the reason that the Jews have accused him...which is a refutation of their claims that Paul was guilty of other things. Acts 24:5-6 5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: 6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. He appeals to the prophets again, because he knows Agrippa believes them, and then shares the gospel...nearly persuading Agrippa.

Paul was making clear it clear that Old Testament taught resurrection, and proved how the Sadducee's were wrong in saying that the OT did not teach it.

More to come....

 

[lovely]

Part Two...

Proof that there is a resurrection by Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and the Old Testament Prophets.

Matthew 22
23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
Jesus subtly shows, through the list of those Pentateuch patriarchs, that God used the present tense I am...even though they were all dead. The Sadducees falsely taught there was no resurrection, and this clever quote from Christ silenced them.

The quote was taken from Exodus when God spoke to Moses and told Him in present tense that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Matthew 3:7-12

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John the Baptist spoke these words, and likened both the Sadducees and Pharisees to venomous snakes (I think it was because they were killing others with the deceptive poison spewed from their fangs), and then he mentions a phrase that we see in the Old Testament, "the wrath to come" John puts these two different sects of Jews at the day of wrath, and puts into context the two passages below with the last verse. "12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Both groups denied Christ for different reasons...Sadducees refuted the resurrection, and the Pharisees refuted salvation through faith. Matthew 22 and Matthew 23 illustrate this well.

Let's look at the Prophets again, and consider the wrath to come that John defines for us.

Ezekiel 7

19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.
20 As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.
21 And I will give it into the hands of the strangers for a prey, and to the wicked of the earth for a spoil; and they shall pollute it.
22 My face will I turn also from them, and they shall pollute my secret place: for the robbers shall enter into it, and defile it.
The figure of a chain foretells their miserable captivity
23 Make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence.
24 Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pomp of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be defiled.
25 Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.
26 Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients.
27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

This speaks to those Jews of Israel who will not believe, and who will be judged in the day of wrath.

Zephaniah 1

1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.
2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.
3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.
7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

This speaks to those Jews of Judah who will not believe, and be judged in the day of wrath.

More to come...

 

[jgredline]

Keep it coming girl, keep it coming :

 

[lovely]

Part Three...(Final)

Spiritual Death

We are sinners, until we are born again...through the Spirit.

John 3:5-12
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

This belief that causes one to be born again is a gift of God, and those who do not receive it will perish. This can't mean die physically, because I am going to die physically as a believer, and God says that if I believe, I won't perish. God sent His son to give me life now, but it is spiritual life that will allow me to avoid spiritual perishing. I have Life now, though I will still physically die.

John 3:13-16
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John points out that evidence of this life (which is obviously not physical) is the love of my brethren.

1 John 3
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the
brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

John says here that I have (present tense) spiritual life, and that I shall not come (future tense) in to condemnation. This is the sentence of the judgement, that I was part of, but will be ultimately be pardoned from because of my belief now, and Christ's atonement. I have already passed from death to life. (these are spiritual terms, because I am already physically living) John is saying that I have passed from death spiritually, where I began because of Adam and Eve, unto life spiritually, where I am because of the atoning blood of Christ.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Christ came not to condemn us, but to offer us salvation here in this life. So those who believe, are not condemned, because we were condemned already prior to our belief. Notice that there are unbelievers physically alive now, but are condemned already (future tense) This is a spiritual condemnation, because they are presently alive now. Clearly in these verses there is a resurrection of the unbeliever unto damnation.

John 3:17-20
"17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

I think my post to guibox shows some of the Scirpture from Romans that speaks to spiritual death as well.

Resurrection of the wicked...

Resurrection of unbelievers to the day of wrath...

Romans 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Notice here how, and according to what, ALL will be judged.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is a great white Throne of judgement. To keep it simple I won't go into specifics about what I believe about Revelation, but rather focus in on the fact that two groups are being raised from the dead here, and those who whose names were not written in the book were cast into the lake of fire. A thousand years ealier, the anitchrist and the beast were thrown into this same lake...

Revelation 19:20-21 "20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. "

They are still "living in this death" a thousand years later when the devil is unbound briefly, and then thrown in himself...

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

They are tormented day and night.

Revelation 21: 6-8
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Note that the unbelieving will be there.[/size]

God gives us a picture of the New Jerusalem, and in the midst of it he summarizes with John about those who will enter, and those who will not.

There is a second death, and I believe it is the final death that will carry out the unbeliever's sentence, and unbelief is in that list.

Tan, this is the Truth of the Word, and there is more that speaks about spiritual life, and spiritual death. I can only present it, but I can not make others be given over to the belief of it. As with everything in the Word, it's a single strand in one big tapestry of woven Truth. There is no lie in it. This is why we should dig in the Word...search after wisdom as gold, so to speak, and that is what I intend to continue doing.

Language studies, and cultural traditions, are useful, but they never usurp the authority of the Word, nor do they define it. The fact that other pagan religions have beliefs about resurrections unto eternal life, and eternal death is probably because they all have pieces of the Truth that were passed down since Noah, but were distorted after Babel. Only the Jews carried the oracles of God. The Lord bless you, and all who have read here.

 

[Atonement]

Lovely, I'm so glad that you posted this.. I love how you left it ALL in context.. Something these people can never seem to do.. Pick and chose what Scripture they like and run with it.. Only a true fool could debate the truth as you have presented it... God Bless you Lovely

 

[lovely]

Hi guibox...I don't speak french. :-D

I decided that I am going to take these Scriptures and look at them in their entirety. This post will deal with Ecclesiastes. I will deal with 1 Corinthians 15 straight from my Bible in another post.

Ecclesiastes 3:11-22

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

He has put eternity in man's heart, without which man can not find out what happened at the beginning, and what will happen at the end.

12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

What God has done is an eternal work, and men should fear Him for that reason. The past is present, the future is past, and God requires an account.

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

God will judge both righteous and wicked.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Physically we all die, as the animals do.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

The answer is God. God knows the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward? God will bring man to judgement to give an account for his works.

Ecclesiastes 9:1-10
1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

These verses are speaking about the judgement that all men will stand in, and God will know all of their deeds in detail, the believer, and the unbeliever alike. The dead (evil men) will go to the dead. Their dead spirits are not freed from their bodies, but will remain apart from God in physical death, and after their resurrection unto eternal damnation as well. They will know at that point who God is.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Solomon is not talking about spiritual things here. The living refers to the physical life we have now, and how the dead know nothing of this life because they are dead...no one remembers them, all that was good and bad here is gone, and they will never live again in this world. This is about everyone, and has nothing to do with annihilation, but refers to the fact that all men will die.

7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

For now God accepts our works, and this life is all we have to do them, but after we die we can no longer do works, good or evil. What we do here matters for judgement, and there are no second chances. I don't think any of this is about annihilation, but rather about the deeds of men and how they will affect the coming judgement...that is a running theme in this book of the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 11:9-10
9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.

God will bring us into judgement so we need to put away evil, and avoid the vanity of youth.

Ecclesiastes 12:11-14
1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This passage actually portrays someone getting older, and a reminder to the young to remember God in their youth so they do not look back as older believers and lament that they did not do more for God. More good works for the judgement, and less bad ones the earlier they remember their Creator.

8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
The fear of God is the chief antidote of vanity
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Every man should fear God, and keep His commands, because all of it will be judged good and evil at the judgement.

Most of this book is focused on the judgement, and it says it is for both the wicked, and the righteous...the believer, and the unbeliever. Solomon also speaks a lot about physical death, and repeatedly implies that God, who has taken all of man's deeds into account, is the only one who knows what will happen after death at the judgement.

This book is not speaking to annihilation at all, and it only mentions eternal things as they pertain to God's understanding of them, and man's desire to understand them. I re-read the whole thing again tonight, and highlighted the parts that I felt would be used, and have been used, to support annihilation...but they don't.

I will look over 1 Corinthians again, and especially chapter 15, and post something on it tomorrow, if I am able.

The Lord bless you, guibox.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Lovely, I'm so glad that you posted this.. I love how you left it ALL in context.. Something these people can never seem to do.. Pick and chose what Scripture they like and run with it.. Only a true fool could debate the truth as you have presented it... God Bless you Lovely

AMEN Atonement!


Psa 50:16-17 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

I just read this verse in my devotion this morning. I had been praying over those who have been attempting to twist the Word. In case any of the non-believers in the forum have been wondering how God feels about your attempts to teach Scripture to His people....there it is.

The Psalm continues:

Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
Psa 50:19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
Psa 50:20 Thou sittest [and] speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.
Psa 50:21 These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether [such an one] as thyself: [but] I will reprove thee, and set [them] in order before thine eyes.
Psa 50:22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear [you] in pieces, and [there be] none to deliver.
Psa 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth [his] conversation [aright] will I shew the salvation of God.


It is a real dangerous thing to speak against something that God has ordained.

 

[Drew]

Lovely, I'm so glad that you posted this.. I love how you left it ALL in context.. Something these people can never seem to do.. Pick and chose what Scripture they like and run with it.. Only a true fool could debate the truth as you have presented it... God Bless you Lovely

Daniel 12:2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel prophesied of a resurrection unto everlasting contempt.

Not necessarily.

As I have argued before, contempt is a condition one is held in by others, not a condition one experiences. This text therefore seems to teach that the lost will be held in contempt by others forever - the same way that Hitler is held in contempt by us even though he is long dead. And it may even be possible that arguments can be marshalled as to whether "everlasting" really means everlasting. But lets assume that it does mean everlasting. Since, Atonement, I am apparently a fool, perhaps you can provide an actual argument that undermines what I have just written. Circular arguments will be detected, even by we fools!

 

[Drew]

I just read this verse in my devotion this morning. I had been praying over those who have been attempting to twist the Word. In case any of the non-believers in the forum have been wondering how God feels about your attempts to teach Scripture to His people....there it is.

Ah the all too familar tactic of those whose actual arguments are faring badly - resort to unsubstantiated claims that those who disagree are non-believers. This is, of course, the easy way out. The hard way out is to engage the actual content of the discussion. When you are ready to do this, gabby, we will gladly welcome you into the discussion.

Others have taken these words of our Lord and directed them at a poster. I have added the bolding to point out the seriousness about what is being said about a poster on these forums:

"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

The directing of these very words at a poster was then cited as "deserved" by a moderator.

Gabby, before you engage in such backslapping, consider the words of those with whom you would associate yourself.

 

[golfjack]

reply

You guys have been given more answers to your questions than most. I conclude that you just don't like the answers. Debatiing with you guys is like debating with an Evolutioionist, whiich is junk science, just like your junk interpretations of the Word of God.




May God bless, golfjack

 

[guibox]

Lovely,

I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish by your 3 part post. I do believe the resurrection of the just and the unjust. You have shown that quite clearly...I'm not sure why Atonement was getting all excited and 'back slapping' for about it, but oh well...

However, your fundamental flaw is in your understanding of the spirit, the 'ruach' the 'pneuma' of man. When all man dies, this 'spirit' goes back to God who gave it and man ceases to function as a wholistic being. The same ruach is shared by all men and even the animals.

You are taking this 'ruach' into the afterlife and making it part of mankind's eternal nature. This is not biblical at all. The wicked do not have their 'spirit's left in stasis to be revived as immortal just so thye can still be called 'spiritually dead' so you can intepret 'death' as merely 'spiritual death' which can be eternal.

The bible doesn't use it this way and you still don't understand the nature of man despite the clear explanations given particularily by CP Mike.

And again, you still misunderstand the contrast and comparison between 'life' and 'death' in speaking of the afterlife and the 'rewards' and 'punishment'.

It amazes me how you and others can say 'the bible shouldn't be hard to understand! Take it for what it says!" but then offer some convoluted circle-running and twisting to make 'death' actually mean life simply because you don't want to accept that 'spirit' doesn't mean 'man's immortal soul'. This is as 'not taking the Bible for what it says' as one can get.

And when you actually do 1 Coirinthians 15, I ask that you put both 'souls sleep' and 'immortality of the soul/spirit, on the shelf and allow context and logic to speak to you from the chapter.

Can you try and do that lovely? :fadein:

 

[TanNinety]

Lovely, I'm so glad that you posted this.. I love how you left it ALL in context.. Something these people can never seem to do.. Pick and chose what Scripture they like and run with it.. Only a true fool could debate the truth as you have presented it... God Bless you Lovely

CP, Gui, Sput, Drew, I'm so glad that you guys posted ..I love how you guys left it ALL in context.. Something these traditionalists can never seem to do.. Pick and chose what Scripture they like and run with it.. Only a true knob-head could debate the truth as you have presented it... God Bless you all.

Your mind numbing rhetoric is not really edifying this discussion atonement. I have said the same thing you did with some change in words, do you see it adding any value to the discussion? Yeah yours didn’t either.

Demonizing the opponents as fools, saducees, children of the devil only shows how low you can stoop even as a moderator in a discussion. You definitely have some learning and growing up to do. If only the rest of you can learn the civility and love that lovely presents in her posts.

 

[guibox]

lovely, I want to comment on part II of your posts.

This section is another misunderstood text that assumptions are read in and logical thought progression gets tossed out the window. It doesn't seem like you were trying to prove 'immortality of the soul' by it but nonetheless it warrants some comment

Some say that Jesus was saying that as not being God of the dead but the living that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven right now. This fails for a number of reasons:

1) The fact that God used Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and not David, Isaiah and Solomon is significant to emphasis and not proof of the afterlife

2) The issue here being discussed was not instant rewards or punishment but resurrection

As a matter of fact, lovely actually made it easier to understand...Here are the verses...now look closely at the context

by lovely
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
Jesus subtly shows, through the list of those Pentateuch patriarchs, that God used the present tense I am...even though they were all dead. The Sadducees falsely taught there was no resurrection, and this clever quote from Christ silenced them.

The quote was taken from Exodus when God spoke to Moses and told Him in present tense that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Why did Jesus use this quote from Exodus 3? What was God doing in Exodus and what was Christ claiming? Simply put, Christ was showing His authority by referring to the phrase that God is the God of the whole Jewish race (like Jesus said to the Pharisees, 'Before Abraham was I AM'.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have nothing to do with the next part of the verse. It was the phrase for Christ to tell the Sads that He was God, He has the power to do anything based on His authority alone

Now to understand what Jesus meant, we merely have to look at the power of resurrection. The Sads believed that when you died, you died ETERNALLY. They knew we all died physically, they were saying that there was no eternal life.

Notice there is no mention or discussion on WHEN this occurs but merely denied THAT it occurs.

1 Corinthians 15 make it plain that we will be 'made alive' at the resurrection where we will receive immortality. We are not left to 'perish' in the graves. We are not left to die eternally. We are alive.

Jesus was showing the Sads that He is the God of the resurrection and the resurrection brings life. The dead will not die eternally. They are not truly 'dead' in experiencing the second death. God will 'bring them up with Jesus'.

Neither the context or the logic supports that Jesus was saying A,I & J were in heaven, therefore He is the God of the living, not the dead. This is backwards logic and completely misses the point of what and to whom Jesus was speaking to.

 

[TanNinety]

Dear Lovely, I agree mostly with your part 1 and part 2 ..I can't say I have never not agreed with it, because I have always believed in the resurrection. To deny resurrection is to deny that Jesus rose from the grave. Not sure why resurrection was an issue to begin with?

I will read your part 3 about spiritual death and get back on it.

You guys have been given more answers to your questions than most. I conclude that you just don't like the answers. Debatiing with you guys is like debating with an Evolutioionist, whiich is junk science, just like your junk interpretations of the Word of God.

Jack, since evolution goes against your fibre of religion its junk. But I bet you can't live without your A/C, car, microwave, electricity and computer that you spill your drivel on? Why dont you stay as far away from science? Or do you PICK and CHOOSE the science for your own good like you do with scriptures?

 

[lovely]

Hi Drew,

Drew wrote:

Not necessarily.

As I have argued before, contempt is a condition one is held in by others, not a condition one experiences. This text therefore seems to teach that the lost will be held in contempt by others forever - the same way that Hitler is held in contempt by us even though he is long dead. And it may even be possible that arguments can be marshalled as to whether "everlasting" really means everlasting. But lets assume that it does mean everlasting. Since, Atonement, I am apparently a fool, perhaps you can provide an actual argument that undermines what I have just written. Circular arguments will be detected, even by we fools!

I am not sure if you were actually directing this response to me, but it is a reply to my post, and so I will respond.

I wouldn't disagree with your, "Not necessarily" at all, if I were just looking a Daniel. If we were just discussing this one passage, and there were no other verses that indicated an everlasting state of things, then I would probably be one of those actually saying, not necessarily. I can see how it could be read the other way, that if they were actually dead, as in the end, they would possibly be held in shame and contempt by someone else in the everlasting experience of the one doing the 'holding'.

I think we agree they can either be in shame and contempt, or in a state of being held in shame and contempt. The text says, "to" shame and contempt as if it were the state of the some. I have to disagree with the, "not necessarily" when we consider this passage in context of the whole of Scripture, and allow the Word to define itself. Just as Jesus cleared up the law for us, I think He also cleared up these passages as well. I think it reads as a resurrection to an everlasting end for the enemies of God. The Lord bless you today, Drew.


guibox,

Those posts, that are in three parts, were Scripture to support some key points in my position. Tan requested Scripture, probably not that much, but I wanted to provide some in a contextual manner for him, and those who read here, to just lay out the Word. There was no agenda, but just a sharing of some things I have come to understand on the topic. It was also to show that my view is not of a traditionalist nature, in that I haven't just believed what Rev. Know-it-all said. I have read God's Word as the authority on the matter, and will continue to.

As far as your last post to me, I don't agree with you period. It's not that I don't understand your position, it's that I do not agree with it. I am not the brightest firefly in the mason, but I do trust God completely to teach me. I have no problem believing annihilation, if that is what the Word teaches. I am discussing this, but I am not in competition with anyone, and am not trying to be right...I am sharing the Word, and am open to someone sharing it with me. I was blessed that Tan asked for Scripture, and thought it best to lay things out in context so that no one suspected that something was being pulled out for my purpose...that can happen even unintentionally. I have had people here actually correct me, and they were right in doing so. I am glad, and I see no shame in receiving correction...only good can come of it.

guibox wrote:

And when you actually do 1 Coirinthians 15, I ask that you put both 'souls sleep' and 'immortality of the soul/spirit, on the shelf and allow context and logic to speak to you from the chapter.

Can you try and do that lovely?

I am sorry, but I can only follow part of your advice to me. I will try to put all of my 'self' on the shelf, and pray earnestly for the Holy Spirit to grace me with God's wisdom, and Truth, as I study. I am His disciple, and it's my desire to learn at His feet alone, and grab up every crumb of Truth. It's really not about debating you, or anyone, but about exposing error. If I am in error, I pray God shows me so that I can turn from it. This is my heart on the matter, and I thank God for His generous blessing of giving such a good measure of love for Him, and His Truth, to this dog.

The Lord bless you today, guibox. I will post on 1 Corinthians, and I ask your prayers as I study it today again. I have to take care of a flat on my van this afternoon, but will try to chime in with it this evening.

 

[lovely]

Hi Tan,

I must have been composing while you were posting. Thanks for reading all of it, and again for requesting Scripture. It was convicting to me, because I should use the Word more, and do less of what I am doing rightn now. Catch up later. The Lord bless your day.

 

[Drew]

I think we agree they can either be in shame and contempt, or in a state of being held in shame and contempt

I agree - a "local" reading of the Daniel text leaves both these as possibilities.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Ah the all too familar tactic of those whose actual arguments are faring badly - resort to unsubstantiated claims that those who disagree are non-believers. This is, of course, the easy way out. The hard way out is to engage the actual content of the discussion. When you are ready to do this, gabby, we will gladly welcome you into the discussion.

Others have taken these words of our Lord and directed them at a poster. I have added the bolding to point out the seriousness about what is being said about a poster on these forums.

1.)Tactic? Quoting Scripture?

2.) The arguments are based on truth. It can not go badly.

3.) Claims that those who disagree are non-believers. My comments were directed at those who are non-believers. Not to Christians acting like it, not to believers who are accused falsely. Directed to non believers. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, do not feel obligated.

4.) Engage the actual content of discussion. When I am ready to do this??? I see some signs of attention deficit disorder. Perhaps a search of my post would assist you.

5.) When I am ready to do this you will welcome me to the discussion? So have you stepped into the roll of a mod, my mom, or a bouncer?

Gabby, before you engage in such backslapping, consider the words of those with whom you would associate yourself.

I associate myself with those who know the truth.

What has come to be known as "backslapping" among many in this forum has a biblical term. To edify. It is not a sin, the way many try to make it out to be. It is encouraged in Scripture to edify one another.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Drew,
Disagree with my beliefs on the doctrine if you want, but please don't talk down to me again, and certainly do not pretend to have some authority over my being allowed to post here. It's rude. It is childish. It is not Christlike.