The Royal "We" of Genesis

[theLords]

Thank you Lords. I respect you too. You never have a word of guile in your posts.

If you are asking me, then I will tell you. It was YHVH. The I AM. Now if God is three, and he says not WE ARE but I AM, which person was it? I Believe it was the preincarnate Jesus. But I also believe He and the father are one echad. I''m asking how the others interpret this.

Ah, we seem to be in perfect agreement. Every time the Lord interacts with creation in the Bible, when He is in a bodily form, I clearly see Christ. Abraham and Sodom & Gomorrah, wrestling Jacob, in the book of Ruth when Naomi decides to return home because she heard the Lord was handing out food to the people, etc. Then the Father, "no one shall look upon Him and live," is clearly represented like with Moses on Mt. Sinai as YWHW hid Him in the cave. And then the Holy Spirit is the most obvious, "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon Saul and he began to prophesy."

So with that said, from previous discussions, do I remember correctly that you are not a Trinitarian? If so how do you reconcile the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God?

Thank you for your clear explanation on the Royal We. It is the most well balanced, argument I have ever had on the matter. No one ever explained it "We Am that We Am" and that put it in clear perspective for me. Jesus declared, "I Am!"

 

[glorydaz]

The One God attests to His own plurality....alluded to in the OT and clearly revealed in the NT.

Besides the "our image" in Genesis, we have Isaiah...

Isaiah 6:8 - "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me."

We see the singular "name".

Matthew 28:19 -"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

We see Christ...who is over all...

Romans 9:5 - "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

We see God was manifest in the flesh (Christ).

1 Timothy 3:16 - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

And 1 John 1 plainly tells us Jesus is God and was with God in the beginning. We worship a triune God.

 

[Ashua]

Ah, we seem to be in perfect agreement. Every time the Lord interacts with creation in the Bible, when He is in a bodily form, I clearly see Christ. Abraham and Sodom & Gomorrah, wrestling Jacob, in the book of Ruth when Naomi decides to return home because she heard the Lord was handing out food to the people, etc. Then the Father, "no one shall look upon Him and live," is clearly represented like with Moses on Mt. Sinai as YWHW hid Him in the cave. And then the Holy Spirit is the most obvious, "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon Saul and he began to prophesy."

So with that said, from previous discussions, do I remember correctly that you are not a Trinitarian? If so how do you reconcile the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God?

Thank you for your clear explanation on the Royal We. It is the most well balanced, argument I have ever had on the matter. No one ever explained it "We Am that We Am" and that put it in clear perspective for me. Jesus declared, "I Am!"

I admit it isn't the easiest concept to grasp for either side. I think most likely the best way to explain it is:

The father= God almighty in the infinitive eternal form.
the Son = God among us. Jesus Christ Yeshua the Messiah
The Holy Spirit = God within us. Pentecost. The Holy Spirit dwelling within our bodies the temple.

Trinitarians:

If Jesus is no the father, explain this one:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. -Isaiah 9:6

 

[Alabaster]

What is the verses which make you decidedly committed to your viewpoint. I am all for edification. If you can prove it with the scriptures I'm all for reproof. But if you are just going to show a graphic and say trinity trinity, that just wont cut it. Show me scriptures. Your best ones. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

I am not going to enter into a long debate on the existence of the Trinity. When God said, "Let us make man in OUR image", He was plainly speaking to Himself, the THREE IN ONE, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Ashua]

Some secular jewish scholar have postulated this - El is a canaanite word adopted by the jews taking jerusalem - the canaanites also worshipeed Elohim - but the meant Elohiem in the literal way - the gods - a commonm canaanite statement was also Ya Adonai - or oh my gods. The difference is that the jews, when commanding the canaanites to monotheism said Ha Elohim - meaning worship The God(royal we conotating nobility). Some other scholars say that the use of plural in reference to Nobles and God is an ancient relic from polytheistic days when language developed, kept by the speakers after adopting monotheism without having the intent of a polytheistic meaning. The Arabs have the same tradition in their language of using plurals for the various names of God.

@theLords - Im sorry for explicitly saying you were guided by the Holy spirit, but you infered it by saying you and your fellow trinitarians who see the use of royal we as proof of the trinity, when past peoples who actually spoke the language never got that - either you are wrong or they are wrong, and by saying you are right, you must have some kind of divine wisdom they did not have since you dont even speak or read their language.

You mentioned that this verse in gen. was written before time began, and human brains read and saw what they thought it meant - its funny, because the word Eloheem was used, which, like I said earlier is a cananite word - so it was clearly written/revealed to the Israelites around teh time of Moses(AS) using the nomenclature and sentence structure those jews were used to. So when the plural form of Elohim was used, they didnt bat an eye, because they ahd already been using this word before the revealtion of the verse.

@Ashua - Thank you for explaining that part as well, Do you speak hebrew?

There are soooo many other prophesies and bible verses taht you guys can justifiably use when arguing for the trinity, why pick one that is so clearly wrong, and an argument I have only seen coming from non-hebrew/semetic language speakers? Just go out and learn the language and youll see for yourself why this argument is so weak and riddiculous.

No. But when I study scripture I always do so with a real intense look at the Hebrew. I don't like putting "faith" in translation. I picked up a little here and there, but I don't actually speak it.

 

[Ashua]

I am not going to enter into a long debate on the existence of the Trinity. When God said, "Let us make man in OUR image", He was plainly speaking to Himself, the THREE IN ONE, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

Once again, that is the product of an English translation. Look at the Hebrew words.

Glorydaz mentioned Isaiah. I appreciate that. It was a real attempt not to "debate" but to edify. I will have to get back to you on that Glorydaz.

 

[Alabaster]

Once again, that is the product of an English translation. Look at the Hebrew words.

Glorydaz mentioned Isaiah. I appreciate that. It was a real attempt not to "debate" but to edify. I will have to get back to you on that Glorydaz.

Don't play that 'translation' card. The English translation has integrity! It is Holy Spirit who speaks through the word and He is the one who delivers all truth to our hearts. We don't need to purvey fear of English translations, for God has overseen that excellence prevails.

 

[Ashua]

The One God attests to His own plurality....alluded to in the OT and clearly revealed in the NT.

Besides the "our image" in Genesis, we have Isaiah...


We see the singular "name".

We see Christ...who is over all...


We see God was manifest in the flesh (Christ).

And 1 John 1 plainly tells us Jesus is God and was with God in the beginning. We worship a triune God.

The one who said "Here I am, send me!" Is Isaiah the prophet. The context shows as much. It's pretty much like how John speaks in the first person in the book of Revelation.

If that is Jesus speaking, then we have a serious problem:

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, YHVH of hosts. -Isaiah 6:5

A full 3 verses before that. Isaiah is the one volunteering to be sent.

 

[glorydaz]

I dont have a problem. These contradictions show that its a problem within the bible.
Think...why would the bible first establish that God and Jesus are different (as shown in so many verses, including Jesus' own teachings) and then have Jesus make a statement that he is "the alpha and the omega" who created Jesus in Marys womb???

I hope you don't mind if I bring this up in the middle of your discussion, but it isn't a problem within the Bible. Jesus was God AND man. The man Jesus was subservient to the Father. Whenever you see that God and Jesus were "different", it's speaking of Jesus' humanity as opposed to His divinity.

 

[theLords]

@theLords - Im sorry for explicitly saying you were guided by the Holy spirit, but you infered it by saying you and your fellow trinitarians who see the use of royal we as proof of the trinity, when past peoples who actually spoke the language never got that - either you are wrong or they are wrong, and by saying you are right, you must have some kind of divine wisdom they did not have since you dont even speak or read their language.

You mentioned that this verse in gen. was written before time began, and human brains read and saw what they thought it meant - its funny, because the word Eloheem was used, which, like I said earlier is a cananite word - so it was clearly written/revealed to the Israelites around teh time of Moses(AS) using the nomenclature and sentence structure those jews were used to. So when the plural form of Elohim was used, they didnt bat an eye, because they ahd already been using this word before the revealtion of the verse.

I accept your apology. As far as "me and my fellow trinitarians" using the Royal We to proclaim proof of the Trinity, I don't subscribe to that theory, though, I respect those that do. I have often heard of this "Royal We" without ever knowing what it was. I came into this thread to learn about it and make up my mind about it. Thankfully, brother Ashua and the kindness of the Lord explained it to me in a way that made complete sense.

As far as God saying those words before time began all I was simply saying was that it's still completely interesting, that God chose to speak in such a manner before time began. He seems to be revealing something and there seems to be gold to be found in this verse, I am just yet to find it.

 

[Ashua]

The verse from 2 Timothy indeed proves that God was made manifest in the flesh. What it fails to prove is the trinity. It proves Jesus is God.

The son is the father:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. -Isaiah 9:6

The root and the offspring
the father and the son.

 

[theLords]

I admit it isn't the easiest concept to grasp for either side. I think most likely the best way to explain it is:

The father= God almighty in the infinitive eternal form.
the Son = God among us. Jesus Christ Yeshua the Messiah
The Holy Spirit = God within us. Pentecost. The Holy Spirit dwelling within our bodies the temple.

Trinitarians:

If Jesus is no the father, explain this one:

Oh my. I always thought I was a Trinitarian. I think this little discussion is proving to me that I may not truly be :o

How do you explain other aspects of the Lord's nature as revealed to us in Christ?

Praying to the Father, "Only the Father knows the day and hour," and other clear distinctions He makes between Himself and Father God?

 

[glorydaz]

The one who said "Here I am, send me!" Is Isaiah the prophet. The context shows as much. It's pretty much like how John speaks in the first person in the book of Revelation.

If that is Jesus speaking, then we have a serious problem:



A full 3 verses before that. Isaiah is the one volunteering to be sent.

Yes, Isaiah said "send me". But it was "the voice of the Lord" that said..."Whom shall I send, and who will go for US."

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

It was Jesus who was WITH God in the beginning...who WAS God...the "US" in this particular passage of scripture (along with the Holy Spirit, of course.)

 

[Ashua]

Oh my. I always thought I was a Trinitarian. I think this little discussion is proving to me that I may not truly be :o

How do you explain other aspects of the Lord's nature as revealed to us in Christ?

Praying to the Father, "Only the Father knows the day and hour," and other clear distinctions He makes between Himself and Father God?

He was setting examples.
He was teaching us how we ought to pray. Other times, such as on the cross when he cried out Eloi Eloi Lama sabachthani "My God my God why hast thou forsaken me?"

He was INTENTIONALLY quoting Psalm 22. It was just a confirmation to the apostles that this was yet another fulfillment. This isnt unique for him. In the Gospels we read that Jesus brought out a scroll of Isaiah and read it to the people "The spirit of the LORD is upon me..." And concluded by saying that the scripture had been fulfilled in that very day before them.

Also, the gospels allude to the psalms when they say such as "not a bone of him was broken" and how they casted lots for his vesture. Its obvious what Jesus was doing.

When the verses such as "no man knoweth the hour not the son but the father" etc...

This is actually a Jewish idiom.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. -Mark 13:32

Whats interesting about this is this phrase is actually the Hebrew idiom for the "Feast that no man knows the day or hour", that is, "Yom Teruah" / "Feast of Trumpets/Shouting". This is the only feast day that you do not know in advance exactly when it is going to start because it happens on the day of the new visible crescent moon of the 7th month.


Why Yom Teruah????

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: -1st Thessalonians 4:16

Yom Teruah is the feast of TRUMPETS. The rapture happens at the final trump.

The idom also has to do with Jewish wedding custom. Its really interesting if you look into it.

idioms are one of the biggest things we lose in translation.

Not only is this an allusion to the feast of trumpets (which are to do with the trumpet call of return of the LORD) but also the wedding connotation suggests the bride --the Church and the wedding feast. Its really quite a beautiful picture. You ask good questions.

 

[theLords]

The verse from 2 Timothy indeed proves that God was made manifest in the flesh. What it fails to prove is the trinity. It proves Jesus is God.

The son is the father:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. -Isaiah 9:6

The root and the offspring
the father and the son.

I completely agree with you when you say Jesus is the Father :shocked!

Not simply because of Biblical doctrine but because I have experienced the Lord in that manner in my walk with Him. He's the one who taught me this years ago! Oh my, now He's providing Scriptural evidence.

Strangely enough, I have been praying about this recently and asking the Lord if I was truly a Trinitarian, as the more time I spent on this board the more time I realized some of my views of God didn't match up with what other members posted.

I didn't grow up learning the doctrinal names of theology like some other Christians. No one ever explained the concept of the Trinity to me. I believe in the revealed Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not only because of the Word but because of the Lord's manifestation of these "personas" (if you will) in my walk. The Word became LIFE to me and I cannot deny the Father, Son, Holy Spirit teaching.

Where does this lead me? The concept of the Trinity still makes sense to me.

:help

 

[glorydaz]

Oh my. I always thought I was a Trinitarian. I think this little discussion is proving to me that I may not truly be :o

How do you explain other aspects of the Lord's nature as revealed to us in Christ?

Praying to the Father, "Only the Father knows the day and hour," and other clear distinctions He makes between Himself and Father God?

That's the problem with man trying to understand a triune God. It's almost unexplainable in human terms. The "clear distinctions" Jesus makes are a result of His humanity...not His divinity. Jesus is God in the flesh. Remember...He was slain from the foundation of the world. How can that be in our human understanding?

Revelation 13:8 - "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[theLords]

He was setting examples.
He was teaching us how we ought to pray. Other times, such as on the cross when he cried out Eloi Eloi Lama sabachthani "My God my God why hast thou forsaken me?"

He was INTENTIONALLY quoting Psalm 22. It was just a confirmation to the apostles that this was yet another fulfillment. This isnt unique for him. In the Gospels we read that Jesus brought out a scroll of Isaiah and read it to the people "The spirit of the LORD is upon me..." And concluded by saying that the scripture had been fulfilled in that very day before them.

Also, the gospels allude to the psalms when they say such as "not a bone of him was broken" and how they casted lots for his vesture. Its obvious what Jesus was doing.

When the verses such as "no man knoweth the hour not the son but the father" etc...

This is actually a Jewish idiom.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. -Mark 13:32

Whats interesting about this is this phrase is actually the Hebrew idiom for the "Feast that no man knows the day or hour", that is, "Yom Teruah" / "Feast of Trumpets/Shouting". This is the only feast day that you do not know in advance exactly when it is going to start because it happens on the day of the new visible crescent moon of the 7th month.


Why Yom Teruah????

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: -1st Thessalonians 4:16

Yom Teruah is the feast of TRUMPETS. The rapture happens at the final trump.

The idom also has to do with Jewish wedding custom. Its really interesting if you look into it.

idioms are one of the biggest things we lose in translation.

Not only is this an allusion to the feast of trumpets (which are to do with the trumpet call of return of the LORD) but also the wedding connotation suggests the bride --the Church and the wedding feast. Its really quite a beautiful picture. You ask good questions.

I can see! It feels like a weight has dropped within me proclaiming "Jesus is God!" I am completely and utterly astounded. I feel like I've just stepped into a deeper level of the fullness of God.

The Lord taught so much of what you explained years ago. I simply never knew how to talk about it because I didn't know how to explain it through Scripture.

I need to go fall on my face in the worship of the Supreme Holy of Holies. I don't think I'll be sleeping tonight.

I don't understand why the Trinity concept makes since to me though? I guess I'll wait for your other post since I already asked.

 

[Ashua]

Yes, Isaiah said "send me". But it was "the voice of the Lord" that said..."Whom shall I send, and who will go for US."

It was Jesus who was WITH God in the beginning...who WAS God...the "US" in this particular passage of scripture (along with the Holy Spirit, of course.)

Oh, right. Okay.

Its the same exact story as Genesis 1 where I said the translators added in the "us" part.

Here is what the verse actually says English -- Hebrew

Then I heard וָאֶשְׁמַ֞ע va'eshmato Meaning "to hear"
the voice קֹ֤ול kovl Meaning sound, voice
of the Lord, אֲדֹנָי֙ adonai Meaning Lord
saying, אֹמֵ֔ר omer, Meaning "to utter", say
"Whom מִ֥י mi Meaning who
shall I send, אֶשְׁלַ֖ח eshlach Meaning "to send" (notice how they had to add in the word "I"?)
and who וּמִ֣י umi Meaning who
will go יֵֽלֶךְ־ yelech- Meaning "to go", come, walk

for Us?" Then I said, וָאֹמַ֖ר va'omar Meaning to utter, say They TOTALLY added that "for us" part in completely without basis. The word before means to go. The word after means simply to SPEAK. Nice job translators....

"Here lo! behold! (this part is also completely added in. There is no Hebrew here)

am I. שְׁלָחֵֽנִי׃ shelacheni. Meaning "to send"
Me (also added for grammatical structure.. no Hebrew here.)

Isaiah 6:8 Bible Lexicon

Check for yourself.

 

[theLords]

That's the problem with man trying to understand a triune God. It's almost unexplainable in human terms. The "clear distinctions" Jesus makes are a result of His humanity...not His divinity. Jesus is God in the flesh. Remember...He was slain from the foundation of the world. How can that be in our human understanding?

Thank you for your input, but excuse me while the Lord pierces my heart with His double edged Sword...

 

[Ashua]

I can see! It feels like a weight has dropped within me proclaiming "Jesus is God!" I am completely and utterly astounded. I feel like I've just stepped into a deeper level of the fullness of God.

The Lord taught so much of what you explained years ago. I simply never knew how to talk about it because I didn't know how to explain it through Scripture.

I need to go fall on my face in the worship of the Supreme Holy of Holies. I don't think I'll be sleeping tonight.

I don't understand why the Trinity concept makes since to me though? I guess I'll wait for your other post since I already asked.

I'm very happy for you. Yes, fall on your face and honor him. You are rich in faith.