The Royal "We" of Genesis

[theLords]

what i meant was

jesus said " I and Father are one. and He is in me and I am in you"
i took that to mean that the lord is saying he is equal to the father and both dwell in us , and side not of course the holy spirit is there as well.
and later its written that we ought not to grieve the Holy Ghost and also the bible says that if jesus leaves and returns to heave the comfort will come and he will teach us what we need to know.

so if the Lord is in heaven how can the holy spirit being the same thing be here as well?

the holy spirit being a seperate being as the lord said of the h.s.

he will teach you and bring all things i have said to remembrance and wont speak of his own.

so that means by simple logical grammar(which i'm crappy at) the persons christ and the holy spirit must be seperate and also father.

because if jesus is the father then he woudnt have said I and father are one but instead would say i am the father.

he also said i go unto my fathers house.

that three part the unity is where they same things meaning they all recieve worship.
jesus never stopped anyone from worshipping him, and with that statement of if you recieve me or believe on me shall i correct myself you believe on the father. so by worshipping the son you also worship the father

now then the holy spirit that person is a little tricky. we cant blaspheme him but he is able to be grieved, and also has fruits and leads one to repentance.

but is he able to be worshiped?i would say yes as he often leads that worship of father, and yet the father is also a spirit.

Thanks for elaborating. It is extremely beautiful and i thought this previous statement of yours "no jesus is said this jesus is the son God and God the father is in me, and I in in you and we are one." was incredibly poetic

 

[jasoncran]

It still remains that Jesus established a clear distinction between "Father" and "son".
Jesus prayed to God. He never told anyone that he was actually God, but instead said that he was doing his Fathers will.




Its either....
A) Jesus contradicts himself. He was not serious when he instructed folowers to worship the one true God thast he himself worshipped... or when he said things like "the Father is greater than I"

or

B) Its simply like saying "if you see this ticket to Hawaii you have seen Hawaii" or "if you see this lottery number than you have seen a prize of $1 million.


its says clearly in John this



jhn 1:1 in the beggining was the word and word was with God and word WAS God and the WORD become flesh.

now then what does that mean since Jesus claimed to be the son of God and mary was mother and Joseph didnt have sex with mary till after jesus birth. that means that jesus was the son of God and also the WORD of God.

as he became flesh.

you also ignore that vision of john seeing and hearing jesus state what jesus said

"i am the first and the last and the alpha and the omega"

that is what the lord told isiah as i mentioned.

if both claim that then you have a problem jesus cant claim to be God the father when the Glory isnt to be shared.

 

[theLords]

i hate those newer translations and it was imputed to him rightenousness.

few would see "credit" that way.

and heres one we modern english users see addict as
1 cor 16 the verse that says they have adicted themselves to the ministry in 1611 english that meant to dedicted oneself too, totally different then todays version.(the word adict)

LOL, sorryeth I hath grieved you by not usingth the proper translationth of God. For doust thou not know? The language of the Lord Almighty is 17th century British English. Oh, doom me not, sire Jason, but extend to me thy forgiving hand.

 

[Alabaster]

It appears you are denying the (many) scriptures that state clearly and without doubt that God is one.
Jesus himself said God is one... whos side am I really on here?

I deny no scripture, but rather embrace the entire body of scripture, which teaches that God is three in one.

 

[Ashua]

You're all wrong. The royal we doesnt exist in Genesis. Neither does this doctrine of gods.

Genesis translates the word `asah as "let us make" due to the translator attempting to render Hebrew into English grammar and his failed understanding of the word Elohiym.

The word "Elohiym" has the Hebrew suffix iym which denotes plurality in general. The words in hebrew are:

'Elohiym 'amar 'asah 'adam tselem dĕmuwth
God(s) (to speak) (to do or make) man image likeness

In other words, the verse is translated in plural NOT based on the hebrew words for "make" and "image" and "likeness" being in the plural form, but because of the word ELOHIYM alone. The plurality of those verbs came as an attempt to uphold sentence structure according to the subject Elohiym. The Hebrew never says explicitly "let us" or "our image" only the verb to make and the nouns image/likeness.


The word Elohiym is a plural intensive word. The Hebrew word Chayim is also plural intensive. It means "life" We have one life and one God. The word is stressed as if it were a plural to show EMPHASIS. This is a hard pill to swallow, but if you ever study Hebrew you will understand what I mean. A similar example would be titles like King of kings and Lord of lords. the plurality is a demonstration of the supreme nature of the subject.

The Hebrew word Echad is what is translated in the ten commandments "Hear O' Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is ONE"

S'mei Yisrael, YHVH Eloheinu YHVH echad.

Elohiym certainly CAN refer to many gods... But in the context of echad, it is explicit about numerically ONE.

 

[Alabaster]

Is God three in one or one in three?

No one says one in three.

 

[Ashua]

No one says one in three.

Shall we add him who wrestled with Jacob to the number? Or the burning bush or pillar of fire? are these not God manifest?

 

[Ashua]

No one says one in three.

Is YHVH the Son or the Father or the Holy Spirit? Which person of the trinity appeared in which instances?

 

[jasoncran]

LOL, sorryeth I hath grieved you by not usingth the proper translationth of God. For doust thou not know? The language of the Lord Almighty is 17th century British English. Oh, doom me not, sire Jason, but extend to me thy forgiving hand.

lol, you know i can read the old english easily, i read thomas paines book common sense in the original english and understood it easily.

 

[Alabaster]

Is YHVH the Son or the Father or the Holy Spirit? Which person of the trinity appeared in which instances?

Do you not understand the graphic depiction?

 

[theLords]

Shall we add him who wrestled with Jacob to the number? Or the burning bush or pillar of fire? are these not God manifest?

Ashua, who was it that wrestled with Jacob? and who was it that spoke to Moses? and who was the pillar of fire?

Searching the Scriptures it seems that all manifestations of God fall under 3 revealed categories (1) Father (2) Son (3) Holy Spirit

Does that make sense? I'm interested to hear your response, as I greatly respect you as a brother in the Lord.

 

[Ashua]

Do you not understand the graphic depiction?

YHVH said not to Moses "we are that we are" but I AM that I AM.

Which one was it who spoke to Moses.

 

[Ashua]

Ashua, who was it that wrestled with Jacob? and who was it that spoke to Moses? and who was the pillar of fire?

Searching the Scriptures it seems that all manifestations of God fall under 3 revealed categories (1) Father (2) Son (3)

Does that make sense? I'm interested to hear your response, as I greatly respect you as a brother in the Lord.

Thank you Lords. I respect you too. You never have a word of guile in your posts.

If you are asking me, then I will tell you. It was YHVH. The I AM. Now if God is three, and he says not WE ARE but I AM, which person was it? I Believe it was the preincarnate Jesus. But I also believe He and the father are one echad. I''m asking how the others interpret this.

 

[theLords]

lol, you know i can read the old english easily, i read thomas paines book common sense in the original english and understood it easily.

Lucky you. I am trying to avoid Shakespeare like the plague next semester. Pray for me

 

[jasoncran]

Thank you Lords. I respect you too. You never have a word of guile in your posts.

If you are asking me, then I will tell you. It was YHVH. The I AM. Now if God is three, and he says not WE ARE but I AM, which person was it? I Believe it was the preincarnate Jesus. But I also believe He and the father are one echad. I''m asking how the others interpret this.

post the shuma and lets look at the hebrew as you know how i see it from the nt as i stated that clearly.

 

[Alabaster]

YHVH said not to Moses "we are that we are" but I AM that I AM.

Which one was it who spoke to Moses.

Do you not know that Moses communed with God in all His Persons? He is One, and He consists of three Persons. I don't have a problem with that. Some can't get their heads around it, but they need to accept it nonetheless.

 

[jasoncran]

Lucky you. I am trying to avoid Shakespeare like the plague next semester. Pray for me

the holy spirit taught me the old english as i had to ask him what those words meant.

such as perchance
albeit
and hateth his mother and father

 

[Ashua]

post the shuma and lets look at the hebrew as you know how i see it from the nt as i stated that clearly.

What? You mean post the Shema?

I'm sure you did post clearly how you see it, but I don't know. I missed it.

If you asked for the Hebrew Shema here it is:

שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה אֶחָֽד
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Original Word: אֶחָד
Transliteration: echad
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh-awd')
Short Definition: a
Word Origin
a prim. card. number
Definition
one

 

[sk0rpi0n]

jhn 1:1 in the beggining was the word and word was with God and word WAS God and the WORD become flesh.

now then what does that mean since Jesus claimed to be the son of God and mary was mother and Joseph didnt have sex with mary till after jesus birth. that means that jesus was the son of God and also the WORD of God.
as he became flesh.

What you say is irrelevant because Jesus is not the only one referred to as "son of God".

“Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was the son of God.â€
-Luke 3:38

Jesus required a human mother who herself can be traced back to Adam... the original human who happened without a father or a mother...created DIRECTLY by God.

you also ignore that vision of john seeing and hearing jesus state what jesus said

"i am the first and the last and the alpha and the omega"

that is what the lord told isiah as i mentioned.

if both claim that then you have a problem jesus cant claim to be God the father when the Glory isnt to be shared.

I dont have a problem. These contradictions show that its a problem within the bible.
Think...why would the bible first establish that God and Jesus are different (as shown in so many verses, including Jesus' own teachings) and then have Jesus make a statement that he is "the alpha and the omega" who created Jesus in Marys womb???

 

[Ashua]

Do you not know that Moses communed with God in all His Persons? He is One, and He consists of three Persons. I don't have a problem with that. Some can't get their heads around it, but they need to accept it nonetheless.

What is the verses which make you decidedly committed to your viewpoint. I am all for edification. If you can prove it with the scriptures I'm all for reproof. But if you are just going to show a graphic and say trinity trinity, that just wont cut it. Show me scriptures. Your best ones. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.