THE SABBATH

[Jethro Bodine]

This is confusing.

If we want to say that the CC changed the day of worship,
then we have to admit that it was the first church.

Otherwise we have to say that the Apostles changed the day of worship.

WHEN do you believe the day was changed?

No, the early church of the Apostles added the first day of the week meeting, not replaced the 7th day Sabbath as the Catholics eventually did. Atpollard explained this well.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or, more to the point, every day we as believers reside in Sabbath Rest. Which is why it is not necessary to keep the literal Mosaic Sabbath anymore. We have already been brought near to God in Sabbath Rest through faith in Christ, so there's no need to draw near to God in Sabbath rest that we are already in through Christ. That doesn't mean you can't do it (as the Catholics claim). It means you don't have to.

Any law that seeks to accomplish what has already been done for the believer does not have to be done. It is laid aside as obsolete and unneeded now because it seeks to do what has already been accomplished one time for all time for the believer. We know this from other more easily understood examples of law, specifically and most notably, the law of sacrifice for sin. We don't have to draw near to God through the law of sacrifice anymore because we have already been brought near to God one time for all time through the sacrifice of Christ. And so those laws are not needed now, and thus, laid aside as obsolete. That doesn't mean you can't make sacrifices! It means you don't have to. Same for the law of Sabbath rest.

I'll tell you what has me a bit confused about the Sabbath:

I also believe it's a ceremonial law.
I don't believe all of the law has been abolished, as you SEEM to,,,I'm not sure.
The ceremonial law has been abolished,
the civil law has been abolished.
The MORAL law will never be abolished.

So the Sabbath is a ceremonial law so it would seem we're in the clear....
but
It's also one of the 10 COMMANDMENTS!

Weren't they supposed to be forever?
Is there another commandment we could consider to be ceremonial?
No.
The rest are all Moral.

So why was the Sabbath included if it's not moral?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

WHEN do you believe the day was changed?

4th century.

I learned a lot about this years ago when Christian forums had more discussion in more varied topics with seemingly more educated and levelheaded people. Nowadays I feel like I'm in a looney bin around here, lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, the early church of the Apostles added the first day of the week meeting, not replaced the 7th day Sabbath as the Catholics eventually did. Atpollard explained this well.

Please give me the post number...
I can't remember seeing it but I just got here.

I don't really understand what you're saying.
The Apostles replaced the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday...
?
What do you mean that the Catholics eventually REPLACED it?
(this would be the difference between ADDING and REPLACING).

 

[GodsGrace]

4th century.

I learned a lot about this years ago when Christian forums had more discussion in more varied topics with seemingly more educated and levelheaded people. Nowadays I feel like I'm in a looney bin around here, lol.

In the 4th century Catholicism had been legalized by Constantine and then made the official religion of the Roman Empire by Theopholis (spelling).

But Christians had been worshipping on Sunday hundreds of years before that.

No longer observing the Sabbath but living in the observance of the Lord's Day.
Ignatius 105AD

The Jews do not serve God and err [edited] when they observe the Sabbath.
Aristidis 125AD

Is there any other matter, my Jewish friends, in which we Christians are blamed, than this:
that we do not live after the Law...and do not observe Sabbaths, as you do.
Justin Martyr 160AD

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't believe all of the law has been abolished, as you SEEM to,,,I'm not sure.
The ceremonial law has been abolished,
the civil law has been abolished.
The MORAL law will never be abolished.

The debt of the moral law will always exist (Romans 13:8-10). It is never satisfied but must be fulfilled continually. It is the requirements of the law that got fulfilled by faith in Christ that no longer remain for God's people to have to fulfill, generally summarized as ceremonial and civil law as you have said.

If someone wants to recognize the law of Sabbath as a moral law I'm fine with that. As I've shown, there is a moral aspect to it in Deuteronomy 5 concerning the welfare of laborers in your service on that day. Give 'em break. That's a loving tender hearted caring thing to do for them. But I do not view the ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath law as remaining for the believer as a matter of law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please give me the post number...
I can't remember seeing it but I just got here.

Post 69:

Since the issue of meeting on Sunday didn't die out in this topic ... I think the Catholic Church is both TAKING and being GIVEN credit for something that both predates them and was out of their control.

As I understand the chain of Historical events, when Gentiles first entered the church (so we are in the time of the Book of Acts), Jewish and Gentile Christians gathered together on the First day of the week to avoid creating unnecessary tension with the powerful (and more numerous) unsaved Jews meeting in the Temple and local Synagogues. When the Jewish authorities began to crack down on Jewish believers by putting them out of the Synagogue and Temple, it became a simple and obvious expedient to just meet with the Gentile believers that were already meeting on the First Day of the week. The first day (Lord's Day) was always important because of its association with both the Resurrection and Pentecost. It was a simple matter for expedience to become "TRADITION" and tradition to become "DOCTRINE".

... but is started out as just a practical solution to keep the peace with the neighbors. It was never anything SINISTER (as some are quick to claim).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't really understand what you're saying.
The Apostles replaced the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday...
?

Yes, for the reasons atpollard points out.

What do you mean that the Catholics eventually REPLACED it?
(this would be the difference between ADDING and REPLACING).

The Apostles didn't label their first day of the week worship some kind of new Sabbath observance that replaces and nullifies the original 7th day Sabbath. The Catholics did that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the 4th century Catholicism had been legalized by Constantine and then made the official religion of the Roman Empire by Theopholis (spelling).

But Christians had been worshipping on Sunday hundreds of years before that.

Yes, but the difference being, as the church became Catholic it assigned the 1st day worship that had been being practiced since the time of the Apostles to that of a replacement Sabbath observance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but the difference being, as the church became Catholic it assigned the 1st day worship that had been being practiced since the time of the Apostles to that of a replacement Sabbath observance.

I must be dense.
Let me read post 69.
Maybe it's just too late.
Tomorrow.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jethro Bodine said:

Which you quoted and agreed with

Yet your quote clearly shows that the Catholic Church did NOT change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday:



And as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week

So it is you who have innacurate history



No, some of the things you claimed are not "facts of history". For example your claim about the Catholic Church

I quoted as it's written in The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine".

You're free to make up your own opinions, but none of us are free to make up our own facts.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, the Ten Commandments did not exist before God gave them to Moses as part of their Covenant Law and none of your quotes mention "10 Commandments|".

In Exodus 16, BEFORE THEY GOT ANYWHERE NEAR MOUNT SINAI, God commanded no gathering of manna on Sabbath, and when they did, He asked Moses "How long will the children of Israel refuse to obey My law?" thus proving that His law already existed before it was given to Moses. We can't make up our own facts.

That (Sinai/Mosaic) Covenant did not exist before God gave the to the Israelites in the desert.
The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.(Dt 5:2-3)

Who's claiming it did? Not me.

Yes, I agree that moral precepts found in the 10 Comandments existed before they were codified for the Siniai Covenant. But the "10 Commandments" as such were a sign of the Covenant and the legal code of the Covenant. Moreover one of those Commandments (Sabbath keeping) was specifically for the Jews.

The Ten Commandments were more than a "sign" - they were commands! They were laws that went all the way back to the beginning, because Cain knew better than to kill Abel, Rachel knew better than to steal, Joseph knew better than to commit adultery, Jacob knew better than to lie, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Phoneman777]

The law of Moses whch includes the “10” Commandments, was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.

The Ten Commandments already existed - you can't "add" something to itself.

The Abrahamic Covenant including commandments, laws and precepts that Abraham learned directly from the Lord, but did not include the “Sabbath” law as seen in the law of Moses which included death to those who violated it.

The Sabbath goes all the way back to Eden - it didn't begin at Sinai - because the time when the blessing of the "Sabbath day" issued forth from God was in Eden when He blessed the "7th day". His blessings are potent for all time and don't require any mountain top booster shot, according to 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV.

There are many commandments that we are to obey in the New Covenant, however keeping the Sabbath is not one of them.

Hebrews 4:9-10 Peshitta says, "It is therefore the DUTY OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD to keep the Sabbath. For he that has entered into His rest, he has ceased from his own works, as God did from His."

God never rested from "works of sin" - He literally rested on the seventh day, and Hebrews 4:9 commands us to do the same.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where in scripture does it say that?

Exodus 16, in the Wilderness of Sin - you can find that on an ancient map.

 

[Phoneman777]

As I have already shown authoritative statements by the Catholic Church say that the Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday (see post #53 above).

Comments by newspapers (even Catholic ones) or individual priests are not authoritative statements by the Catholic Church.

And as phoneman777 posted

I don't know where you're digging up these "authoritative" ideas, but go to www.romeschallenge.com and read for yourself that the catholic church absolutely claims to have changed the Sabbath commandment to Sunday.

Romes Challenge

I'm sorry to be the one to inform you of such unsettling news, but please remember that our faith is in Jesus alone to save us, not a priesthood, not a pope, and not a system.

 

[JLB]

I agree with this.
Every day is the Sabbath.
And the real Sabbath rest is to come. (after death).

Im not saying everyday now is the Sabbath, but Saturday, the seventh day of the week has been designated for rest.


What that means to us and what that means to God may be different.

The rest to come which the seventh day of the week foreshadows, refers to the 1000 years we will reign with Christ on earth when He returns and removes His enemies, in which there will be rest and peace for one thousand years which prophetically refers to the seventh day;
this occurs after the 6000 years from Adam, or 6 “days”.

Remember a day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
1 Peter 3:8

So 7000 years is 7 “days”.

The final 1000 years is the 7th day of rest.





JLB

 

[Phoneman777]

You're talking about being part of the Body of Christ of course - I believe this is what you understand to be the remnant.

A remnant is the last part of a thing that perfectly resembles the first part of that thing. The Bible says the "remnant church" will be keeping God's commandments, which means these commandments have to be the same commandments kept by the early church.

Catholicism - by her own words - disqualifies herself as the "remnant church" because they claim to have changed God's commandments and thus cannot trace herself back to the early church.

I believe Christians - Gentiles - had begun celebrating the Eucharist - communion - right after Jesus died. They were known as cannibals by some. I do believe they were doing this on the first day of the week, Sunday, to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord.

There's no Biblical proof of the early church celebrated what we call the "Lord's supper" on Sunday - if we choose to believe that, fine, but we can't base a doctrine on that.

If we want to understand that Peter WAS, in fact, the first Bishop of Rome, then I'd have to believe that the CC went back that far. I can't make a commitment as to how far back it goes, but I do believe it was the first church, or denomination if you will.

The reasoning for the idea Peter was the first bishop is rooted in flawed hermeneutics and extremely bad scholarship - because a comparison of the Greek words "Petros" (Peter) and "Petra" (rock) reveal that Jesus was NOT referring to Peter as the "rock" upon which He would build His church. He was referring to Peter's confession that Jesus was "Christ, the Son of the living God" as the thing upon which He would build His church, according to the Greek.

If so, I can accept that the CC changed to Sunday IF that's how far back we want to go.

Otherwise, we have to keep to the idea that the Apostles themselves changed the celebration day from Saturday to Sunday and keep the CC out of this.

IOW,,, I'm not sure.

Actually, church historians write that it was Sabbath that was universally kept by the early church, with a few churches keeping both Sabbath and Sunday.

Proof that Sunday is absolutely not part of the New Covenant:​

The New Covenant - in which the Holy Spirit writes God's Law of Ten Commandments on our hearts (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV) - was ratified when Jesus shed His blood on Friday, just as the Old Covenant was ratified with the blood of bulls and goats. Everything that was to be part of the New Covenant had to have been included before it was ratified: baptism, the Lord's Supper, Holy Spirit gifts, etc.

QUESTION: When is Sunday keeping supposed to have commenced?

You see? Even if the Sunday Jesus rose was kept by Christians, it could not have been part of the New Covenant because the New Covenant had already been ratified 2 days before Sunday arrived!

 

[JLB]

The Ten Commandments already existed - you can't "add" something to itself.

The entire law of Moses was added, which included the 10 Commandments.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

The entire law of Moses was abolished at the cross.

The law of Moses was the enmity, the hatred, the dividing wall of separation between Jew and Gentile, and therefore was remove at the cross to make way for the one new man, in Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The way the Sabbath was observed under the law, became an ordinance that resulted in being stoned to death if the ordinance was violated.


Before the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, he seventh day is simply for man to rest.




JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is confusing.

If we want to say that the CC changed the day of worship,
then we have to admit that it was the first church.

That doesn’t logically follow. Because the RCC had the power to command its members to not work Sunday and demand they meet in a building doesn’t follow that they, therefore, were the first christians and no other. Just says they had political power.

Otherwise we have to say that the Apostles changed the day of worship.

The scripture says they met and worshipped the first day of the week. This was probably convenient and not an official edict.

 

[JLB]

The Sabbath goes all the way back to Eden

Yes. please quote the scripture from Genesis. You will see Sabbath is not mentioned.

A day of rest is much different than the Sabbath ordinance instituted by the law of Moses.

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36

Is this what the Lord instructed Adam and Eve to do?


Do you believe this is how the Church is to admistrate the Sabbath ordinace today, under the new covenant?





JLB