THE SABBATH

[GodsGrace]

But Noah is a gentile ,Abraham is the father of the Hebrew nation .

My point is that surely Abraham and Noah took time to fellowship with God

How many actually as I have ,worked on Sunday,?
How many complain about working on Sunday and then go to a business open ?
Water plants and utilities don't shut off for Sunday .
They don't shut down for Christmas either not Easter .

I agree.
I don't even think it's possible to maintain a true Sabbath these days.

 

[jasonc]

I agree.
I don't even think it's possible to maintain a true Sabbath these days.

Without legalism

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You can do whatever you want maam. What is a Gentile Dorothy?

You don’t know?

 

[Phoneman777]

The entire law of Moses was added, which included the 10 Commandments.

The Ten Commandments already existed. Joseph, Cain, and Rachel knew that adultery, murder, and theft violated God's commandments. It's not reasonable to insist mankind had no idea about God's Ten Commandments when they clearly had knowledge of His commands regarding sacrifice all the way at the beginning. For instance, Abel brought to the altar a lamb "and the fat thereof". Later, in Leviticus they were told to separate the fat from the carcass for burning just as Abel had done.

QUESTION:

Is it reasonable to insist Abel got the idea to separate the fat from the carcass out of thin air, or did God direct him to do so?

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

Yes, at Sinai, the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices was added to the Ten Commandments which go back to the beginning, as the evidence shows, and ended at the Cross, while the Ten Commandments are with us today, because it's no longer sin for God's people to forego circumcision of their male children, but it will ALWAYS be sin to worship other gods, bow down to graven images, and work on the seventh day Sabbath.

The entire law of Moses was abolished at the cross.
The law of Moses was the enmity, the hatred, the dividing wall of separation between Jew and Gentile, and therefore was remove at the cross to make way for the one new man, in Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The way the Sabbath was observed under the law, became an ordinance that resulted in being stoned to death if the ordinance was violated.


Before the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, he seventh day is simply for man to rest.




JLB

JLB, I think the problem is that you don't realize there is a Biblical distinction between God's law which goes back to the beginning which He wrote with His own finger in stone, and the law which Moses wrote in a book at Sinai and lasted until the Cross.

We can't ignore verses in Daniel 9, 1 Kings 21, Leviticus 23, Deuteronomy 31, and others which clearly show God put a difference between the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law. We may not like these verses and the implications of them, but if we're going to be Christians at all, we must take into consideration the whole of God's testimony, even if we discover something that forces us to change our way of thinking into God's way of thinking

 

[Phoneman777]

I found these authoirataive statements in an official Papal statement, the official Catechism of the Catholic Church and the old Catechism of the Council of Trent. Much more authoritative than magazines and newspapers.

Please visit Rome's Challenge and see for yourself - it's a CATHOLIC WEBSITE that challenges Protestants.

"Sunday is our Mark of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact!" - Catholic Record

You mean you didn't hear about what happened at the Council of Trent when many catholic priests were ready to turn their backs on the papacy and join the Reformation, and the Archbishop of Reggio stepped forward to save the day for the papacy?

He stepped up and argued in the face of the Reformers that they claimed to go by the Bible and the Bible alone, but they were guilty a continual violation of God's commandments by observing Sunday every week which is not in Scripture, but is a command of the catholic church, and then he called them a rebellion against the papacy's God-ordained authority.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but if I were you, I check to see if the "authoritative documents" you claim to be reading bear the stamp of the Imprimatur, which means "no heresy up in here fo shizzle, ma nizzle" - I doubt seriously that they do.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where in Ex 16?

Look, I can see that you're not willing to do any research into the documented statements I've sent you, but if you're not even willing to read a chapter in the Bible to verify what I've said, there's no point in us discussing anything. I'm perfectly happy if you continue to believe whatever you wish, but as a "watchman on the wall", my hands will be clear of bloodshed in the day of judgment seeing that I've sounded the warning to you. Remember Hosea 4:6.

 

[Phoneman777]

And that said:
Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
So the Catholic Church has NOT changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

The only thing they didn't change about SABBATH is the name "SABBATH". They stripped it of everything that made it "SABBATH" and transferred all of it to Sunday. Then, they went on to make it an act of heresy to observe "SABBATH" in the manner God prescribed in Scripture. It's a matter of history.

 

[Randy]

I don't see any Catholic bashing.
I don't care for bashing and do my best to avoid it.

The question is:
How did the Sabbath change to Sunday.
Was it changed by the Apostles or by the CC?

If you notice, this thread has been changed to Apologetics.

found this

What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations claim the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, but Scripture and Tradition reveal something else.

www.catholic.com

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please visit Rome's Challenge and see for yourself - it's a CATHOLIC WEBSITE that challenges Protestants.

"Sunday is our Mark of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact!" - Catholic Record

You mean you didn't hear about what happened at the Council of Trent when many catholic priests were ready to turn their backs on the papacy and join the Reformation, and the Archbishop of Reggio stepped forward to save the day for the papacy?

He stepped up and argued in the face of the Reformers that they claimed to go by the Bible and the Bible alone, but they were guilty a continual violation of God's commandments by observing Sunday every week which is not in Scripture, but is a command of the catholic church, and then he called them a rebellion against the papacy's God-ordained authority.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but if I were you, I check to see if the "authoritative documents" you claim to be reading bear the stamp of the Imprimatur, which means "no heresy up in here fo shizzle, ma nizzle" - I doubt seriously that they do.

I was in Italy visiting a protestant lady and asked her what happened in Italy during the Reformation and how there came to be Protestants in Italy now. She said the Catholics killed all of them so it didn’t have a voice in Italy. But centuries later as foreigners moved in to do business, they brought their faith and as killing Protestants was no longer allowed for obvious reasons the Gospel spread.

 

[Phoneman777]

I was in Italy visiting a protestant lady and asked her what happened in Italy during the Reformation and how there came to be Protestants in Italy now. She said the Catholics killed all of them so it didn’t have a voice in Italy. But centuries later as foreigners moved in to do business, they brought their faith and as killing Protestants was no longer allowed for obvious reasons the Gospel spread.

It's true that in many areas, the papacy tried to fully exterminate any "heretics" but the more they died, the stronger the church of Jesus Christ became. Have you read the "Jesuit Oath"?

It was actually when Guttenburg got the moveable type press ready around the time the Bible was translated into the language of the common people that "like leaves of autumn, the Word of God began to spread abroad all across the land" and the papacy became more and more desperate to retain power over the people, but to no avail.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's true that in many areas, the papacy tried to fully exterminate any "heretics" but the more they died, the stronger the church of Jesus Christ became. Have you read the "Jesuit Oath"?

Well they managed to kill all the protestants in Italy nevertheless:

It was actually when Guttenburg got the moveable type press ready around the time the Bible was translated into the language of the common people that "like leaves of autumn, the Word of God began to spread abroad all across the land" and the papacy became more and more desperate to retain power over the people, but to no avail.

True but I was speaking of Italy.

 

[atpollard]

found this

What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations claim the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, but Scripture and Tradition reveal something else.

www.catholic.com

Critical points from this:

"However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.​

​

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished."​

​

That "official stamp of approval":

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials​

presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.​

Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004​

​

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827​

permission to publish this work is hereby granted.​

+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004​

​

One can now "agree" or "disagree" with their exegesis of the listed scripture and thier additional conclusion ("so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished."), but the OFFICIAL POSITION of the CATHOLIC CHURCH is at least presented and certified "error free" (as of 2004).

 

[JLB]

The Ten Commandments already existed.

His commandments already existed. There many more than 10.

The Sabbath Commandment that was added in the law of Moses was not a part of the Abrahamic Covenant. There was not such action by Abraham, or Isaac or Jacob to observe the Sabbath as was instituted by the law of Moses, which commanded anyone who so much as gathered kindling to build a fire and cook on the Sabbath was stoned to death.

We don’t even see the word Sabbath mentioned before Moses.

Sabbath first occurred in Exodus 16:31.

Before that, God rested on the seventh day is the first mention of rest associated with the seventh day.

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Genesis 2:2-3

So let’s start here in the beginning and discuss what the scriptures teach us about the seventh day rest.

• And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
  

Please show us in this scripture where God commanded or corrected Adam to observe the “Sabbath”?

Do you understand that what God said here in Genesis 2:2:3 did not actually pertain to that moment in time but pointed to the rest to come, when God Himself would rest from all His work, with mankind;
the rest to come?

Jesus says it this way —

“My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”


For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:16-18


Abraham walked with God and learned from Him personally, by faith, the laws and commandments and precepts and statutes. This was always the Lord’s intent for Adam and all of mankind to learn directly from Him, who is the Tree of Life.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5


No where is there even mentioned the word Sabbath during the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Again the first time Sabbath is mentioned as a commandment for man to observe is when Moses instituted for the children of Israel.


So yes, I agree His Commandments, the laws and commandments of His kingdom existed from before time and are eternal.


The Sabbath is the exception and means something unique, and was always designed as a rest to come, in that Day the Lord returns to gather His people and remove His enemies, and enjoy 1000 years with His Bride and His people…






JLB

 

[Highway54]

You don’t know?

I believe I do, but am thinking you don't. That term is much less significant for the last 2k yrs than previously. Really has little to do with the Christian congregation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe I do, but am thinking you don't. That term is much less significant for the last 2k yrs than previously. Really has little to do with the Christian congregation.

Then rest assured, I’m well informed on the subject.

 

[Randy]

Critical points from this:

"However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.​

​

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished."​

​

That "official stamp of approval":

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials​

presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.​

Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004​

​

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827​

permission to publish this work is hereby granted.​

+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004​

​

One can now "agree" or "disagree" with their exegesis of the listed scripture and thier additional conclusion ("so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished."), but the OFFICIAL POSITION of the CATHOLIC CHURCH is at least presented and certified "error free" (as of 2004).

The sabbath in regard to the Law was more than which day to worship on. It was an absence of work with meals prepared the day before and travel restrictions as we read in the NT, "a sabbaths day walk". I don't keep such a sabbath day and I have the Spirit of Christ in me. It's really irrelevant to me what day is set aside for worship. Saturday or Sunday. Paul seemed to indicate it was between the believer and the Lord.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

 

[atpollard]

The sabbath in regard to the Law was more than which day to worship on. It was an absence of work with meals prepared the day before and travel restrictions as we read in the NT, "a sabbaths day walk". I don't keep such a sabbath day and I have the Spirit of Christ in me. It's really irrelevant to me what day is set aside for worship. Saturday or Sunday. Paul seemed to indicate it was between the believer and the Lord.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

I agree. It was just nice to have a definitive answer on the Catholic Church position rather than people saying "it believes this" followed by "no it doesn't, that is not a valid source". You provided a "valid source" stating what that Church believes (as doctrine).

I think Jesus' quote "Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath" summed up the difference in attitude between THE LAW (which stones people for walking too far) and GRACE (which blesses us with rest and worship as opportunity presents itself).

 

[Phoneman777]

Well they managed to kill all the protestants in Italy nevertheless:

True but I was speaking of Italy.

Did you know that Switzerland wasn't the timepiece capital of the world in the beginning? It was France...but when the papal persecution of the French Hugenots erupted out of nowhere, they had to grab what they could and flee across the Alps in winter, a perilous journey. They also carried with them their honorable trade and eventually settled into a new life in Switzerland - and that's how it, not France, became the timepiece capital of the world.

 

[Phoneman777]

His commandments already existed. There many more than 10.

Agreed.

The Sabbath Commandment that was added in the law of Moses was not a part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Nothing was "added" to the Mosaic Law - rather, the Mosaic Law was added to the Ten Commandments which already existed.

There was not such action by Abraham, or Isaac or Jacob to observe the Sabbath as was instituted by the law of Moses, which commanded anyone who so much as gathered kindling to build a fire and cook on the Sabbath was stoned to death.

The weekly Sabbath law already existed - it didn't begin at Sinai - and the fact that God demanded to know how long would Israel refuse to obey it proves that.

We don’t even see the word Sabbath mentioned before Moses. Sabbath first occurred in Exodus 16:31. Before that, God rested on the seventh day is the first mention of rest associated with the seventh day.

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Genesis 2:2-3

God absolutely says implicitly that the Sabbath existed in Eden. How?

Because 1 Chronicles 17:27 says when God blesses something, it's forever blessed and doesn't need a mountain top booster shot.

Therefore, when it says God blessed the Sabbath day, that blessing had to have been bestowed in Eden because the day had already been sufficiently blessed in Eden, thereby making any reference to the blessing of the Sabbath day a reference to the blessing of the 7th day in Eden.

So let’s start here in the beginning and discuss what the scriptures teach us about the seventh day rest.

• And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Please show us in this scripture where God commanded or corrected Adam to observe the “Sabbath”?

I don't have to show you where He commanded Adam when I've already shown you the commandment existed before Sinai. Besides, Jesus Himself said the Sabbath was made for M-A-N, not J-E-W.

Do you understand that what God said here in Genesis 2:2:3 did not actually pertain to that moment in time but pointed to the rest to come, when God Himself would rest from all His work, with mankind;
the rest to come?

The Sabbath was not "a shadow of things to come" (Colossians 2:16 KJV) in the future - it was and is a memorial to that which happened in the past: Creation Week.

No where is there even mentioned the word Sabbath during the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Again the first time Sabbath is mentioned as a commandment for man to observe is when Moses instituted for the children of Israel.

I've shown you that any reference to the blessing of the Sabbath day is a reference to the blessing of the 7th day because only one act of blessing of that day took place, according to 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV.

So yes, I agree His Commandments, the laws and commandments of His kingdom existed from before time and are eternal.


The Sabbath is the exception and means something unique, and was always designed as a rest to come, in that Day the Lord returns to gather His people and remove His enemies, and enjoy 1000 years with His Bride and His people…
JLB

The Sabbath day that we're going to observe for all eternity is an exception? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Did you know that Switzerland wasn't the timepiece capital of the world in the beginning? It was France...but when the papal persecution of the French Hugenots erupted out of nowhere, they had to grab what they could and flee across the Alps in winter, a perilous journey. They also carried with them their honorable trade and eventually settled into a new life in Switzerland - and that's how it, not France, became the timepiece capital of the world.

No, I didn’t know that. Thank you for sharing that info. They were wise. It’s more beautiful than France in many ways too.