The scandal of the evangelical heart and mind

[Grazer]

I am not a Calvinist. I am a Chrisitan. I stand with Wayne Grudem who is also a Chrisitan. Our faith, doctrines and works are based on the authority of scripture.

This is a Christian thing not a Calvinist thing.

And I, as a Christian, disagree with him on his views on Enns. I don't see Enns challenging the authority.of scripture and Enns has apologized for not making it clearer in his book. This is why I read the writings of the people themselves not commentaries of them.

 

[ivdavid]

On another note, how would the letter have been read/interpreted by the church in Corinth or Galatia? Would they have considered scripture or a letter from a Christian who visited them and is writing to them?

I hear your questions - and I think I know what you want the final conclusion to be. As to your above question, I'm inclined to think that it was the latter case - as inferred from Acts 17:11. That Paul's teachings were not accepted as God's word blindly just because it was Paul who spoke - rather, they were accepted as God's word because they continued God's revelation consistently with no contradictions - they continued His revelation in the Scriptures(OT only at that time) which they had already accepted as God's word that cannot be broken.

Today, most have accepted the NT also as Scripture that cannot be broken - And we are encouraged the Berean practice even today - wherein we are exhorted to test the message of any speaker who claims to carry God's word, against Scripture(OT+NT) that cannot be broken.

But you have an issue now with those who have accepted the whole NT as Scripture that cannot be broken. Was it so in Acts 17:11, you ask. Did the Bereans first treat Paul's teachings as God's Word that cannot be broken before accepting them hence - Or did they first test it against the OT Scripture that cannot be broken before accepting them, you ask. So similarly, you want us to test Paul's message against OT Scripture that cannot be broken before accepting his message as true.

But you want us to do this because you want to discredit/disprove certain parts of his writing - and you can't do so as long as there's the common acceptance that all his writings are Scripture that cannot be broken - and so you proceed further to show that his teachings are not necessarily Scripture by default, as seen from the Berean response, especially if they are not derived from OT Scripture that cannot be broken and hence the conclusion that they are liable to be broken.

And when there are those who refuse to concede that Paul's teachings can be anything other than Scripture - you question such a 'traditional' mind-set that wishes not to change what has already been established - you question it with Berean integrity and not with the sowing of seeds of discord as the 'traditionalists' wrongly vilify you as doing. You question not to discredit the authority of Scripture - rather to uphold it by carefully determining what can and cannot be made part of it.

Is this not where you're coming from and headed to - as part of these discussions? Or have I misunderstood any part(s) of this?

 

[Grazer]

I'm asking the question as part of the discussion, nothing more. The question regarding the church is a valid one in my view since I'm constantly being told to look for its intent. The intent is for a church in Corinth or Galatia.

It's interesting that people I'm and others are trying to dismantle something or deliberately lead people astray. As I said, my faith is stronger because of this type of questioning so I'm trying to encourage others. Plus I know, as this thread is demonstrating, the answers are far from exhaustive. If it leads to a dismantling of a theology, good, go and build a better one. I've changed my stance on a number of things with gods guidance. I'm not challenging scripture, I'm challenging people's interpretations of it.

But I have everything I need from this thread.

 

[P31Woman]

And I, as a Christian, disagree with him on his views on Enns. I don't see Enns challenging the authority.of scripture and Enns has apologized for not making it clearer in his book. This is why I read the writings of the people themselves not commentaries of them.

Enns was fired for good reason. He was fired because of his false doctrines not because of some mistake. He is a professor and knows he is working to destroy the authority of scripture.

You have yet to present to us a reliable way to test the direction of your growth.

As I asked before how do you know you are not following the doctrines of demons and are leading the youth down the same broad path? What is your standard of measure that is reliable?

 

[Grazer]

Enns was fired for good reason. He was fired because of his false doctrines not because of some mistake. He is a professor and knows he is working to destroy the authority of scripture.

You have yet to present to us a reliable way to test the direction of your growth.

As I asked before how do you know you are not following the doctrines of demons and are leading the youth down the same broad path? What is your standard of measure that is reliable?

How do you know you're not? Honestly, how do you know?

 

[P31Woman]

How do you know you're not? Honestly, how do you know?

I will give you a clear answer as soon as you tell me how you are sure you are on the right path and leading others onto the right path towards God and not away from him?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

As I said, my faith is stronger because of this type of questioning so I'm trying to encourage others.

I'd like to know how attempting to undermine the gospel -- and I say "attempting to" because Enns' efforts to discredit the gospel and homogenize all faiths into one (and do you know where that is discussed in the Bible?) are utter failures -- is going to make faith "stronger."

Plus I know, as this thread is demonstrating, the answers are far from exhaustive. If it leads to a dismantling of a theology, good, go and build a better one.

Really? Build a better theology -- literally, from the Greek, "the study of God" -- than the one God provided? Are you serious? Man is going to come up with a better explanation and identification of God than He Himself personally delivered to the writers of the books of the Bible?

I've changed my stance on a number of things with gods guidance. I'm not challenging scripture, I'm challenging people's interpretations of it.

When such a an examination leads you to conclusions that cannot be supported by the Scripture itself, you've failed, and are in danger of leading yourself and others astray.

But I have everything I need from this thread.

Knowledge that few if any will support you in attempting to homogenize the gospel? That's a good thing to take away from it, I suppose.

 

[Grazer]

Looking at different views and working my way through issues has made my faith stronger. If you don't understand that, that's fine, its not for you to evidently

 

[P31Woman]

Looking at different views and working my way through issues has made my faith stronger. If you don't understand that, that's fine, its not for you to evidently

So the foundation for your faith is yourself? That is, if you feel good about the answer you have arrived to you believe your faith is stronger?

Your doctrine and works are based ultimately on how you feel about something?

 

[P31Woman]

How do you know you're not? Honestly, how do you know?

The way I know I am following the Holy Spirit and not evil spirits is the SAME way I came to knowledge about Jesus Christ.

Think about this:

But don’t let it faze you. Stick with what you learned and believed, sure of the integrity of your teachers—why, you took in the sacred Scriptures with your mother’s milk! There’s nothing like the written Word of God for showing you the way to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another—showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God’s way. Through the Word we are put together and shaped up for the tasks God has for us.

to put it another way

You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

Both quotes are 2 Timothy 3:15-17 The top is from the message the bottom from the living bible.

Study any translation you want. It tells us the same thing. We need "all" God's word to help mature us and help us know what is right and wrong.

I test my teaching, beliefs and actions against the entire word of God. For a believer the Holy Spirit takes that word and opens it up to us.

 

[Mike S]

So the foundation for your faith is yourself? That is, if you feel good about the answer you have arrived to you believe your faith is stronger?

Your doctrine and works are based ultimately on how you feel about something?

We all interpret scripture. Anyone who thinks he can read scripture without interpreting it is fooling only himself.

 

[P31Woman]

We all interpret scripture. Anyone who thinks he can read scripture without interpreting it is fooling only himself.

Why did you mention scripture? He didn't. Here is his direct quote;

Grazer

"Looking at different views and working my way through issues has made my
faith stronger. If you don't understand that, that's fine, its not for you to
evidently"

 

[Mike S]

Why did you mention scripture? He didn't.

I've seen other posts by him.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Looking at different views and working my way through issues has made my faith stronger. If you don't understand that, that's fine, its not for you to evidently

I could understand it better if you would share with us what that faith tell you. You've defended Enns but have really said nothing, ultimately, about what you yourself believe.

 

[P31Woman]

But God ordered to wipe out everyone then later on he says women could be taken as spoils of war

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

So how are you going to answer this quesiton for the youth in the church you visited?

 

[Nick]

I don't have too many issues with your stance but there are those who just accept it as good because its in the bible. I have issues with the fact genocide was ordered in the first place and have issues with the "it was gods perfect justice" explanation. Rachel Evans and Peter Enns have their own issues with it.

I guess in a way I do accept it as good but because it's God's Judgement. Yes, what a terrible thing to have happened, but at the same time God's Judgement was performed.

Why can't you accept it just because it's in the Bible? (if we take it that the Bible is God's Word)

Are you suggesting God cannot discipline His Creation as He pleases, but instead should conform to a liberal's interpretation?

Are you suggesting we are not allowed to ask such questions and that we should just accept the usual answer?

No, I'm not suggesting that. What I do have an issue with is when the raising of such questions leads to an unorthadox and non-Biblical interpretation, which waters down the Biblical message.

You seem to be painting Evangelicals with quite a broad brush here, and I find it very offensive. I don't know any of my brothers or sisters (personally) that are happy with genocide. We have question time at our (Evangelical) church after every sermon. We don't mind questions because we stand with a Bible message that is not watered down.

I'm not saying every church needs to have question time (although I believe they're good) to accept the hard questions, and I've found that many churches that don't have open question time are happy to answer any questions and look at difficult subjects. What they will not tolerate is an interpretation that is clearly not true. We're not claiming to have a perfect interpretation, but there are some interpretations that are clearly not correct, which need to be rebuked, so they and others who listen to them may come to good doctrine.

But at what level? If Paul believed Adam was a literal historic person, do I have to to understand the points he's making? Or can I take Adam as something else but still understand Paul's point? I take the latter approach since I'm in a very different culture to Paul and I believe God used what was known at the time to make his points. So not only do we need consider what was meant at the time but also how do we apply it to us today?

It might depend on what/who you take Adam to be.

 

[Nick]

On another note, how would the letter have been read/interpreted by the church in Corinth or Galatia? Would they have considered scripture or a letter from a Christian who visited them and is writing to them?

I'm guessing they did not foresee that in a few hundred years Paul's letters would be considered by man to be Scripture. But why did they think it worth following? Because Paul preached Christ Crucified, not some false gospel. It matters not what the Christians in Corinth or Galatia thought Paul's letters were. The fact is that it is Scripture, and should be treated as such.

 

[Grazer]

We all interpret scripture. Anyone who thinks he can read scripture without interpreting it is fooling only himself.

If there was a standing ovation emoticon I'd be using it right now.

P31 - you don't think God is with.me during my exploration and journey? He's been with me every step of the way, helping me figure out how to approach these issues ask these questions and given me answers. This is why my faith is stronger than ever, because I know he's keeping an eye on me and providing guidance. It's as a result of him that things have clicked into place which I will blog on later in the week. Don't be fooled into thinking God puts everyone on the same path when were walking with him.

 

[Grazer]

So how are you going to answer this quesiton for the youth in the church you visited?

Depends on how the question is phrased, exactly what they're having problems with. I will just be blunt though, are you out there finding people with questions and offering to help figure out answers with them? It may not what you've been called to do but its what I believe I've been called to do. You think God has left me to run off? If God leads you to it he will lead you through it. I learned a lot during that Q & A myself, perhaps that's why God is putting me there. Where's he put you? How are you using your gifts he's given you? Basically, how I would answer it is of no concern of yours unless you fancy coming down and joining me.

Enns has his views and they make more sense to me than most. There's a reason my signature is what it is. I'm still working through it with gods help and we go down lots of paths together

 

[Grazer]

Nick - well since I don't believe evangelicals have a full correct doctrine, I'm just doing the same as you.

As for tar-ing with the same brush, I don't mean to.but it seems the norm here so.I'm just joining in