The scandal of the evangelical heart and mind

[Nick]

Nick - well since I don't believe evangelicals have a full correct doctrine, I'm just doing the same as you.

I don't think you'll find many evangelicals who believe they have a 100% full correct doctrine. We believe we have the best doctrine - and so do you.

What part of my post was this responding to?

As for tar-ing with the same brush, I don't mean to.but it seems the norm here so.I'm just joining in

Perhaps you can expand on this?

 

[P31Woman]

Depends on how the question is phrased, exactly what they're having problems with. I will just be blunt though, are you out there finding people with questions and offering to help figure out answers with them? It may not what you've been called to do but its what I believe I've been called to do. You think God has left me to run off? If God leads you to it he will lead you through it. I learned a lot during that Q & A myself, perhaps that's why God is putting me there. Where's he put you? How are you using your gifts he's given you? Basically, how I would answer it is of no concern of yours unless you fancy coming down and joining me.

Enns has his views and they make more sense to me than most. There's a reason my signature is what it is. I'm still working through it with gods help and we go down lots of paths together

Have you come clean with these youth parents yet? You know - told them the truth that you don't agree with their doctrine.

 

[Grazer]

Well so far I've been branded evil and accused of spreading a false doctrine. All because I like Peter Enns.

We both think the other has false doctrine. That tells me its not simple

 

[Grazer]

Have you come clean with these youth parents yet?

What do you mean "come clean"? I have nothing to hide.

 

[P31Woman]

What do you mean "come clean"? I have nothing to hide.

You know - told them the truth that you don't agree with their doctrine.

 

[Nick]

What do you mean "come clean"? I have nothing to hide.

You know - teaching their kids a different doctrine to what their parents believe.

 

[Grazer]

You know - told them the truth that you don't agree with their doctrine.

Well since I don't know what their doctrine is there's nothing to confess. I've chatted to the vicar and we share common ground and differ on others regarding doctrine but he seems like a guy who could point across without branding me evil and the like.

Given that these kids have questions, its safe to assume the answers they're getting don't make sense to them or they're not getting any, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for me to do a session with them

 

[Nick]

Well since I don't know what their doctrine is there's nothing to confess. I've chatted to the vicar and we share common ground and differ on others regarding doctrine but he seems like a guy who could point across without branding me evil and the like.

I never branded you evil, if that's what you're suggesting.

I am talking about your thread on this topic in the CT&A forum. You said your beliefs are not inline with the congregation's.

 

[P31Woman]

its obvious I don't share the theological views of most if any of the congregation.

This is what you said in that other thread.

 

[gr8grace]

If there was a standing ovation emoticon I'd be using it right now.

P31 - you don't think God is with.me during my exploration and journey? He's been with me every step of the way, helping me figure out how to approach these issues ask these questions and given me answers. This is why my faith is stronger than ever, because I know he's keeping an eye on me and providing guidance. It's as a result of him that things have clicked into place which I will blog on later in the week. Don't be fooled into thinking God puts everyone on the same path when were walking with him.

I have been where you are at Grazer, (not quite as far as you have gone) but none the less on my personal search and in my personal relationship with Christ.

I believe that God is trying to get some answers for you. (p31woman, thisnumberd....)

God is SHOUTING at you with most of the answers I have seen these people Give you on this thread. And you are making the choice to listen and follow little whispers in the wind.

 

[WIP]

I am sensing tempers rising so I would like to offer a suggestion. It's good for us to challenge each other's understanding for in doing so we are able to learn, especially if we allow ourselves to let go of our pride a little. But I would ask that we tread carefully here so we don't let this get any more uncivil than it already has. Please try to read responses with an objective lens and respond to the topics and avoid taking what is being said as a personal attack.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Grazer, I noted you answered everyone but me. Can you explain, briefly, what it is you believe?

 

[P31Woman]

We all interpret scripture. Anyone who thinks he can read scripture without interpreting it is fooling only himself.

Most of our scriptures does not require interpetation. We can take them at face value (plain meaning) just as we take things when we post on this forum. My post don't require interpetation.

 

[P31Woman]

Depends on how the question is phrased, exactly what they're having problems with. I will just be blunt though, are you out there finding people with questions and offering to help figure out answers with them? It may not what you've been called to do but its what I believe I've been called to do. You think God has left me to run off? If God leads you to it he will lead you through it. I learned a lot during that Q & A myself, perhaps that's why God is putting me there. Where's he put you? How are you using your gifts he's given you? Basically, how I would answer it is of no concern of yours unless you fancy coming down and joining me.

Enns has his views and they make more sense to me than most. There's a reason my signature is what it is. I'm still working through it with gods help and we go down lots of paths together

They ask you bluntly with a mixture of anger and shock in their voice and tears in their eyes, "why did God order/participate in the murder of innocent babies and children?"

 

[Mike S]

Most of our scriptures does not require interpetation. We can take them at face value (plain meaning) just as we take things when we post on this forum. My post don't require interpetation.

Of course we interpret, we have no choice in the matter. We are finite, limited, creatures trying to understand the words of an infinite God, who has given us His word in ways to accomodate our limitations. And, God does not interact with us today the way He interacted with us in the past. His demands for the destruction of other peoples in the Old Testament were meant for a limited time and place and purpose, not meant to be eternal commandments. Do you mean to tell me you understand completely why God did what He did because they are historical events recorded at "face value?" That you don't understand them in ways different from the way they were understood 3500 years ago? God gave us intelligence to understand the world and our relationship with Him through reason as well as faith.

No, P31, we're creatures of limited abilities, hopelessly formed by our experiences, with nothing in our nature giving us the ability to understand at "face value." It explains why we started as a Jewish sect, developed into a separate understanding of God, and now have more than 40,000 different versions of Christianity, all with major or minor differences in theology. There is no one true understanding.

 

[P31Woman]

What do you mean "fine" with it? No one has to like the outcome of God's judgments or the consequences that man's sin brings upon itself and others. Should I be "fine" with the fact that Jesus was crucified on the cross unjustly (and yet paradoxically it was just because Jesus submitted to it willingly and it brought justice to all) and was violently nailed to the cross for me? Or that it "pleased the LORD to bruise him" and that God "has put him to grief" (Isaiah 53:10)? Don't confuse sober acceptance of something with apathy toward grievous reports.

Also would sending sinful unrepentant souls to Hell be considered a spiritual "genocide" of sorts? Does God's heart not burn in sorrow for such people though he must carry out justice (Ezekiel 18:32; Matthew 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9)?

"Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die." (Ezekiel 18:25-28)

Question for you cyberjosh.

It appears to me Enns is saying the scripture cannot be trusted. It is part human product part God product.. Then he tried to tie this to Jesus being human/man. His focus in the book is about man not God.


I am aware of his Adam/Paul book. (Adam not a real person)

Do you see a book in the future that completely destroys the diety of Christ?

(progressive revelation - the same process taken or technique used by the ECM in McLaren's books to take the reader more and more away from God.)

Boil the frog slowly and he won't jump out of the pot or realize what's happening to him.

 

[P31Woman]

Of course we interpret, we have no choice in the matter. We are finite, limited, creatures trying to understand the words of an infinite God, who has given us His word in ways to accomodate our limitations. And, God does not interact with us today the way He interacted with us in the past. His demands for the destruction of other peoples in the Old Testament were meant for a limited time and place and purpose, not meant to be eternal commandments. Do you mean to tell me you understand completely why God did what He did because they are historical events recorded at "face value?" That you don't understand them in ways different from the way they were understood 3500 years ago? God gave us intelligence to understand the world and our relationship with Him through reason as well as faith.

No, P31, we're creatures of limited abilities, hopelessly formed by our experiences, with nothing in our nature giving us the ability to understand at "face value." It explains why we started as a Jewish sect, developed into a separate understanding of God, and now have more than 40,000 different versions of Christianity, all with major or minor differences in theology. There is no one true understanding.

I take it at face value when God presents it to us in the bible in that form. When he said he wanted people's life take because of their sin I take that at face value.

When God tells me his justice is perfect I take that at face value.

It's me that needs the change of heart if I don't like the answer he has given us clearly in scripture - not God.

 

[Mike S]

I take it at face value when God presents it to us in the bible in that form. When he said he wanted people's life take because of their sin I take that at face value.

When God tells me his justice is perfect I take that at face value.

It's me that needs the change of heart if I don't like the answer he has given us clearly in scripture - not God.

Nothing you've said here indicates you aren't interpreting.

If we're to accept scripture at "face value", I'll give you two scripture readings I see as the core of God's will:

Micah 6:8

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.”




What is the face value of these two readings? What does walking humbly with thy God mean? What does it include? What does it prohibit? If God has told us this is what is required, why do we need anything else? Why do we need Christ?

What does all the law and prophets hanging on two great commandments mean? What does it include, and what does it prohibit? If all hangs on these two, why do we need any thing else?

 

[P31Woman]

The face value is exactly what they say.

I don't need Enns book to open up those passages to me. Enns won't help me grow in my faith. Enns will only work to destroy the very simple face value meaning of the words of most scripture.

"In the beginning God created" is a simple face value quote from scripture. Enns would tell me it's a myth and I cannot trust scripture to tell me the truth.

Remember what this thread is about:

From the OP opening lines:

What rocked Rachel’s faith wasn’t the failure of the evangelical intellectual project, but the “failure to maintain emotional integrity”–seen, for example, in the emotional detachment some show toward Canaanite genocide in the Bible. Why are so many Evangelicals “fine” with it? Because it’s in the Bible. End of discussion.


It's an attack on the way we view scripture as our final authority. (inspiration of scripture)

 

[WIP]

I think we all interpret all the time. What I write here in this forum can easily be taken a different way than I intended. Even when I speak face to face with people I often find they take me differently than I intended. My vocal inflections, my facial expressions, my demeanor, the way I stand or hold my head, everything about me projects some meaning and sometimes it isn't what is in my heart.

Face-to-face I have been told that I come across "brassy" and some people are put off by it. I do not come across as a very compassionate person but the truth is I would give you the shirt off my back in January if you needed it. (it's cold up here in January) So why is this? It is because people I encounter interpret me a certain way.