The Seven Seals

[Vic C.]

(Vic scratches his head wondering how we got to talking about Daniel)

Oh well. :D

Dan 9:24-27 is part of a Messianic prophecy. I used to believe the 70th. week was separated from the 69, but not any more. The "weeks" were consecutive. The 70th. week describes the start of Jesus' ministry, His death 3 1/2 years later and up until the stoning of Stephen and the offering of the Gospel to the first of the Gentiles which was Cornelius, Acts 10. That was 3 1/2 years after Jesus' death.

Seven years total.

Jesus did confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) and it did last seven years. Daniel 9:27 says:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

His death effectively ended all sacrifices and oblations. Though they continued on until the Temple destruction in 70AD, their effect was nil. Jesus was the last and only sacrifice that counted.

The second part of Daniel 9:26 is just a parenthesis in this prophecy. It tells us when the Temple sacrifices physically ended.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

There was a flood; it was the Roman army, 30,000 strong. They left the city of Jerusalem in ruins and the Temple was burned down to the ground and whatever wasn't burned (stone of course) was brought down. Not one stone was left upon another. No more Temple sacrifices either.

So, who was this prince? Well, who was in charge of the Roman Empire when this occurred?

Here's a portion of Isaac Newton's commentary:

How after these weeks Christ was cut off, and the city and sanctuary destroyed by the Romans, is well known.

Yet shall he confirm the covenant with many for one week. He kept it, notwithstanding his death, till the rejection of the Jews, and calling of Cornelius and the Gentiles in the seventh year after his passion.

And in half a week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease; that is, by the war of the Romans upon the Jews: which war, after some commotions, began in the 13th year of Nero, A. D. 67, in the spring, when Vespasian, with an army invaded them; and ended in the second year of Vespasian, A. D. 70, in autumn, Sept. 7, when Titus took the city, having burnt the Temple 27 days before: so that it lasted three years and an half.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/commenta ... Revelation

 

[whirlwind]

(Vic scratches his head wondering how we got to talking about Daniel)

Oh well. :D

One thing leads to another. :yes Everything in the Bible is connected so this is bound to happen, perhaps...should happen.

Dan 9:24-27 is part of a Messianic prophecy. I used to believe the 70th. week was separated from the 69, but not any more. The "weeks" were consecutive. The 70th. week describes the start of Jesus' ministry, His death 3 1/2 years later and up until the stoning of Stephen and the offering of the Gospel to the first of the Gentiles which was Cornelius, Acts 10. That was 3 1/2 years after Jesus' death.

Seven years total.

Jesus did confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) and it did last seven years. Daniel 9:27 says:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

His death effectively ended all sacrifices and oblations. Though they continued on until the Temple destruction in 70AD, their effect was nil. Jesus was the last and only sacrifice that counted.

But Vic, the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant" in Daniel isn't Jesus...it is the prince, it is Satan. He is the one that causes the "sacrifice and oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." He is the abomination. He is the desolator. The covenant, the oblation and the sacrifice stop to Jesus when the desolator arrives and are given to him...through deception. That is the time when folks take the mark of the beast...believe his lies.

As you wrote, Jesus is the sacrifice for sin...for all time but there is still a sacrifice required of us.

• * Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perect, will of God

.

That sacrifice must continue through the end times but for many...it won't. They will be giving their sacrifice to the pretender. For this cause Jesus warns us....

• * Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you:
  
  * Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

The second part of Daniel 9:26 is just a parenthesis in this prophecy. It tells us when the Temple sacrifices physically ended.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

There was a flood; it was the Roman army, 30,000 strong. They left the city of Jerusalem in ruins and the Temple was burned down to the ground and whatever wasn't burned (stone of course) was brought down. Not one stone was left upon another. No more Temple sacrifices either.

I understand the above verse to mean...The Messiah shall be "cut off, but not for himself" for Satan will be the one doing the cutting off....by pretending to be Him. The people of the prince, Satan's army will destroy the city but...the city of Jerusalem is symbolic of us, God's children. The sanctuary are the very elect, man child, and the city is believers. The prince will slay the man child and take the city of believers through deception. The end will be with a flood of lies.

Where you write, "Not one stone was left upon another," I must disagree with. The wailing wall still stands, one HUGE stone upon another. :yes

 

[Vic C.]

But Vic, the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant" in Daniel isn't Jesus...it is the prince, it is Satan. He is the one that causes the "sacrifice and oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." He is the abomination. He is the desolator. The covenant, the oblation and the sacrifice stop to Jesus when the desolator arrives and are given to him...through deception. That is the time when folks take the mark of the beast...believe his lies.

Ok, that's your interpretation, not mine or the Reformers. The focus of this Daniel passage is Messianic. Like I said, I once believed as you do. I struggled with and fought against Newton's interpretation, but then one day, it just 'hit' me and made sense. :yes

I fail to see what Romans 12:1-2, Mark 13:5 or Exodus 20:3 have to do with this prophecy. If you want to disregard Ephesians 2 and think there is still something you must do, instead of letting the Lord do this work in you, that's your choice but that suggests a works based salvation.

the city of Jerusalem is symbolic of us, God's children

But Daniel is speaking to 'his people'.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;...

... Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Right there we see again it is about his people and the coming & anointing of their Messiah. This has to be part of the overall Messianic prophecy.

To his people, Jerusalem was very real. IMO, you are spiritualizing the text and attributing to Christians that which was for the Jews.

Where you write, "Not one stone was left upon another," I must disagree with. The wailing wall still stands, one HUGE stone upon another.

The "Wailing Wall" was a part of the wall surrounding the Temple Mount. The actual Temple within those walls was destroyed. It is believed that the Dome of the Rock now sits on the site of the Jewish Temple.

 

[whirlwind]

But Vic, the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant" in Daniel isn't Jesus...it is the prince, it is Satan. He is the one that causes the "sacrifice and oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." He is the abomination. He is the desolator. The covenant, the oblation and the sacrifice stop to Jesus when the desolator arrives and are given to him...through deception. That is the time when folks take the mark of the beast...believe his lies.

Ok, that's your interpretation, not mine or the Reformers. The focus of this Daniel passage is Messianic. Like I said, I once believed as you do. I struggled with and fought against Newton's interpretation, but then one day, it just 'hit' me and made sense. :yes

Fair enough.

I fail to see what Romans 12:1-2, Mark 13:5 or Exodus 20:3 have to do with this prophecy. If you want to disregard Ephesians 2 and think there is still something you must do, instead of letting the Lord do this work in you, that's your choice but that suggests a works based salvation.

The Roman verses are just telling us that although we are saved because of the work of our Lord, that there is still a sacrifice we are to make. That sacrifice won't save us but is nevertheless part of this. As James wrote....

• * James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto the, "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled;" notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
  
  * 2:20-23 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:" and he was called the friend of God.
  
  * 2:24-26 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[quote:1j17wxy1]the city of Jerusalem is symbolic of us, God's children

But Daniel is speaking to 'his people'.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;...

... Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Right there we see again it is about his people and the coming & anointing of their Messiah. This has to be part of the overall Messianic prophecy.

To his people, Jerusalem was very real. IMO, you are spiritualizing the text and attributing to Christians that which was for the Jews.[/quote:1j17wxy1]


True, Daniel is "speaking to his people" and it is definitely about the Messiah....until 9:26 when "the Messiah be cut off." Then the subject switches from the Messiah to "the people of the prince that shall come" and they are those that "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....."

It isn't that I don't think Jerusalem is very real but that much of prophecy is about the spiritual Jerusalem...believers. The Jews are only one tribe of Israel but all the tribes make up Jerusalem, His spiritual city Jerusalem. When a Gentile becomes a believer they become of Israel.

[quote:1j17wxy1]Where you write, "Not one stone was left upon another," I must disagree with. The wailing wall still stands, one HUGE stone upon another.

The "Wailing Wall" was a part of the wall surrounding the Temple Mount. The actual Temple within those walls was destroyed. It is believed that the Dome of the Rock now sits on the site of the Jewish Temple.[/quote:1j17wxy1]


That is true too but....

• * Matthew 24:1-2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you,There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

The "buildings of the temple," and "all these things" would consist of the temple courts, the sacred enclosure, halls, colonnades, towers, and wings. I would add to that it's retaining wall now known by the world as the "wailing wall."

 

[^Lazarus]

(Vic scratches his head wondering how we got to talking about Daniel)

Oh well. :D

Dan 9:24-27 is part of a Messianic prophecy. I used to believe the 70th. week was separated from the 69, but not any more. The "weeks" were consecutive. The 70th. week describes the start of Jesus' ministry, His death 3 1/2 years later and up until the stoning of Stephen and the offering of the Gospel to the first of the Gentiles which was Cornelius, Acts 10. That was 3 1/2 years after Jesus' death.

Seven years total.

Jesus did confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) and it did last seven years. Daniel 9:27 says:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

His death effectively ended all sacrifices and oblations. Though they continued on until the Temple destruction in 70AD, their effect was nil. Jesus was the last and only sacrifice that counted.

The second part of Daniel 9:26 is just a parenthesis in this prophecy. It tells us when the Temple sacrifices physically ended.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

There was a flood; it was the Roman army, 30,000 strong. They left the city of Jerusalem in ruins and the Temple was burned down to the ground and whatever wasn't burned (stone of course) was brought down. Not one stone was left upon another. No more Temple sacrifices either.

So, who was this prince? Well, who was in charge of the Roman Empire when this occurred?

Here's a portion of Isaac Newton's commentary:

How after these weeks Christ was cut off, and the city and sanctuary destroyed by the Romans, is well known.

Yet shall he confirm the covenant with many for one week. He kept it, notwithstanding his death, till the rejection of the Jews, and calling of Cornelius and the Gentiles in the seventh year after his passion.

And in half a week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease; that is, by the war of the Romans upon the Jews: which war, after some commotions, began in the 13th year of Nero, A. D. 67, in the spring, when Vespasian, with an army invaded them; and ended in the second year of Vespasian, A. D. 70, in autumn, Sept. 7, when Titus took the city, having burnt the Temple 27 days before: so that it lasted three years and an half.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/commenta ... Revelation

Excellent Post, no twisting, no spinning, just the plain simple truth.

I Love it, I Love it, I Love it,

 

[Vic C.]

Hi WW,

We view things differently. Either God does the saving or we have a part in it over and above our choice to receive the free gift of salvation (which some would argue isn't even our "choice" anyway) or both. God doesn't need my help and my experience compels me to choose the former, but that's a discussion best left for a Salvation topic.

You see "buildings" as plural. I see see it as referring to the base, the foundation, it's very building blocks.

You are also looking for another Temple to be rebuilt so it can be destroyed, to fulfill a prophecy you still see in the future. I understand that and once believed it myself. But as I continued to grow and study, I find there is no longer a reason or purpose for a new Temple. We are the Temple and the Body and God tells us in Romans 11 that HE will graft back into the tree the branches HE cut off. They will then become part of this Body and Temple as promised. No re-institution of the Old Covenant and it's rituals and sacrifices since it was deemed inferior to the New One.

-----------------------------------

^Lazarus, welcome and thanks. I study from all angles and I believe the Reformers and Historicists have something here with their interpretation.

 

[whirlwind]

Hi WW,

We view things differently. Either God does the saving or we have a part in it over and above our choice to receive the free gift of salvation (which some would argue isn't even our "choice" anyway) or both. God doesn't need my help and my experience compels me to choose the former, but that's a discussion best left for a Salvation topic.

You see "buildings" as plural. I see see it as referring to the base, the foundation, it's very building blocks.

You are also looking for another Temple to be rebuilt so it can be destroyed, to fulfill a prophecy you still see in the future. I understand that and once believed it myself. But as I continued to grow and study, I find there is no longer a reason or purpose for a new Temple. We are the Temple and the Body and God tells us in Romans 11 that HE will graft back into the tree the branches HE cut off. They will then become part of this Body and Temple as promised. No re-institution of the Old Covenant and it's rituals and sacrifices since it was deemed inferior to the New One.

We do "view things differently." :yes But, I haven't been clear on a few things. God alone saves and our works do not give us salvation. But, works, according to James and Paul are part of faith and as such...are a good thing. Not for salvation but nevertheless a good thing to do.

• * Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine line, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Secondly...I'm not looking for any man-made temple to be constructed. We are the temple!

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C
But Daniel is speaking to 'his people'.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;...

Same is true for Ezekiel. Ezekiel was prophesying to the Jewish exiles. Many think the last chapters of Ezekiel speak of the Millennium, and erroneously believe that Ezekiel writes of a future glory that the current nation of Israel will receive. However, the prophecies given in the end of Ezekiel were to occur when the Messiah set up His kingdom on Earth (He wasn't rejected). However, Israel did not keep His Covenant and God will fulfill His plans through another Israel – an Israel built on faith, not genealogy. (Galatians 3:28,29; Romans 11:24,25). What "would have" happened with ancient Israel had they kept God's Covenant did not occur, and Ezekiel's Millennium (under the Old Covenant) was replaced with Revelation's Millennium (under the New Covenant). So looking to Ezekiel for information concerning the Millennium is misguided. Whatever your eschatological view on the Millennium is (premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, etc); one thing is certain: The Millennium of Ezekiel is NOT the Millennium of Revelation. The Millennium of Ezekiel was nailed to the Cross; and is obsolete.

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.†By calling this covenant “new,†he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:10-13)

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by Vic C
But Daniel is speaking to 'his people'.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;...

Same is true for Ezekiel. Ezekiel was prophesying to the Jewish exiles. Many think the last chapters of Ezekiel speak of the Millennium, and erroneously believe that Ezekiel writes of a future glory that the current nation of Israel will receive. However, the prophecies given in the end of Ezekiel were to occur when the Messiah set up His kingdom on Earth (He wasn't rejected). However, Israel did not keep His Covenant and God will fulfill His plans through another Israel – an Israel built on faith, not genealogy. (Galatians 3:28,29; Romans 11:24,25). What "would have" happened with ancient Israel had they kept God's Covenant did not occur, and Ezekiel's Millennium (under the Old Covenant) was replaced with Revelation's Millennium (under the New Covenant). So looking to Ezekiel for information concerning the Millennium is misguided. Whatever your eschatological view on the Millennium is (premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, etc); one thing is certain: The Millennium of Ezekiel is NOT the Millennium of Revelation. The Millennium of Ezekiel was nailed to the Cross; and is obsolete.

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.†By calling this covenant “new,†he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:10-13)

So, in your estimation, when God spoke to Ezekiel and when the "spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. And I heard Him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me," [Ez.43:5-6] and when all the minute detail was given to Ezekiel about the millenial temple....it was all a big mistake? God didn't know what was going to happen? What about the other prophecy Ezekiel was Divinely inspired to write? Is it also null and void? :o

What will be "taught" in the millennium isn't what is taught now, which is to "know the Lord," for all will know. Every knee will bow. But it will be to discern between the clean and the unclean. Discipline. After all, there will be priests of God and of Christ and....they will rule with a rod of iron.

I agree the covenant was broken and a new one is made but nothing is written about the millennial temple. The temple isn't the covenant.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind

....it was all a big mistake? God didn't know what was going to happen? What about the other prophecy Ezekiel was Divinely inspired to write? Is it also null and void?

Yes, it was a big mistake.....on Israel's part. They broke the Covenant! And of course God knew it was going to happen.

"And the Lord said to Moses: ‘You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?’ And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.' " (Deuteronomy 31:16-18)

God knew what the nation of Israel would do in the future and He shared this information with Moses. The Old Testament record confirms what God knew. However, it also confirms that God did not use His foreknowledge to make Israel a stubborn and stiff-necked people. (Ezekiel 3:7; Jeremiah 7:26) Actually, the Old Testament verifies that God did everything possible to redirect Israel from its wicked ways. Over and over again He sent His prophets – but Israel chose to rebel against God. (See Jeremiah 3.) God knew that Israel would rebel beforehand. However, God does not deal with His children on the basis of His foreknowledge. So of course God knew what was going to happen. God doesn't judge on what we "will do" (even though He knows), but on what "we've done". The "option" to keep the Old Covenant was given (even though God already knew the outcome). But they blew it, and the Old Covenant became obsolete (along with Ezekiel's vision of the Millennium), and the New Covenant was implemented (now with John's vision of the Millennium).

 

[Cornelius]

I wanted to ask too...why do you see the man child as the 144,000? Do you understand the witnesses and the man child to be the same group?
[/b]

The Man-child group is the first to come into the manifestation of Christ. Thus: the firstfruits. Find the first fruits and you have found the man child:

Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

 

[Cornelius]

Do not confuse the 144000 in Rev 7 with the 144000 of Rev 14 !

Rev 7 is from the children of Israel, this is the remnant that will come into the Kingdom during this time.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

(You would have noticed that people mix them up, they are always speaking about the 144000 Jewish virgins. )

 

[Cornelius]

Hi WW,

We view things differently. Either God does the saving or we have a part in it over and above our choice to receive the free gift of salvation (which some would argue isn't even our "choice" anyway) or both. God doesn't need my help and my experience compels me to choose the former, but that's a discussion best left for a Salvation topic.

.

Although this is really for another thread , I just want to point out something. God saves you, but He does need something from you. Your FAITH. The gift is there, but you cannot get entrance without faith.(Although that is a gift in itself, but lets not go there now) Being born from above means to stay in faith , not just believing IN God, (and here is the huge difference!) but also BELIEVING God. BOTH are necessary for eternal life.Not just one.
Our faith-part has consequences on our life. The "works" of faith are visible.

We are born from above, as we take on the image of Christ.That means,the more we submit to the Word, the more we are manifesting Christ (being born from above) So for example. When Jesus says,"Turn the other cheek" you will either turn it with no argument, or you will argue your way out of it. In one the spirit wins, the other the flesh wins.In one you manifest Christ (this is a "work" ) and the other you manifest the flesh.

Now many may teach its enough to just believe IN God, but God in fact is looking for BOTH. He is coming to judge our "works" (how much you have been manifesting Christ )

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man's work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:

 

[Cornelius]

Agreed. "The people of the prince that shall come," are his band of merry men. Perhaps I am not understanding where you picture the "prince" in this. After the people of the prince destroy the city, etc. then...."he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." [Dan.9:27]

I see that confirmation as the time he arrives pretending to be Jesus. The sacrifice and oblation stop to Jesus and are transferred to him, the fake. The covenenant is then with him....not Jesus. The only way that can happen, that folks will do that, is to be deceived into it. He will be the instead of christ...looking, acting and pretending to be our Savior.

The Bible shows us the "princes" are spiritual beings. We know this, when we read Daniel.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: (This has happened, Jesus came and was cut off)

and the people of the prince (the prince is a spiritual being, but he has people on earth, in this case,it was the Roman empire that struck Jerusalem in 70 AD) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he (This is the SAME PRINCE that came against Jerusalem in 70 AD ! )shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

We see Daniel telling us about Jesus, about 70AD and then about the end times. But the same PRINCE is responsible through his people for both events.

So if you want to understand it better,. substitute the word "prince" here with "Demon" But these are not ordinary demons,they are powerful rulers , that rule whole countries .

 

[Cornelius]

Rev 13:1 And he stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns, and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as though it had been smitten unto death; and his death-stroke was healed: and the whole earth wondered after the beast;

You can see that the beast is made up out of countries. The clues are the words bear, Lion ,leopard.But one head was smitten (Roman empire lost its world ruling a long time ago ) but now in our day it is coming together again in the United Nation (a healing of the head. The UN is a revived Roman Empire) and now the same PRINCE will move in his people again.

 

[Cornelius]

Now the PRINCE will again come against Jerusalem. But this time, its spiritual Jerusalem. The church. This time it will not be little Rome, but the revived Roman Empire (UN) that will be the driving force behind the persecution of the saint of God.

People must be blind if they are not aware that the USA at this moment is becoming anti-Christian. They have politically-corrected themselves out of Christianity. The UN is definitely linked to the Lucifer Trust (they just renamed it)

The Lucis Trust is the Publishing House which prints and disseminates United Nations material. It is a devastating indictment of the New Age and Pagan nature of the UN. Lucis Trust was established in 1922 as "Lucifer Trust" by Alice Bailey as the publishing company to disseminate the books of Bailey and Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society. The title page of Alice Bailey's book, 'Initiation, Human and Solar' was originally printed in 1922, and clearly shows the publishing house as 'Lucifer Publishing CoIn 1923.'

Bailey changed the name to Lucis Trust, because Lucifer Trust revealed the true nature of the New Age Movement too clearly. (Constance Cumbey, The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, p. 49). A quick trip to any New Age bookstore will reveal that many of the hard-core New Age books are published by Lucis Trust.

People are so looking for the Sci-fi version of Revelation , that the real stuff is happening right under their noses and they cannot (will not ) see it.


C

 

[Cornelius]

To this end, the Lucis Trust, under the leadership of Foster and Alice Bailey, started a group called 'World Goodwill' - an official non-governmental organization within the United Nations. The stated aim of this group is "to cooperate in the world of preparation for the reappearance of the Christ" [One Earth, the magazine of the Findhorn Foundation, October/November 1986, Vol. 6, Issue 6, p.24.]

When will we open our eyes ?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Do not confuse the 144000 in Rev 7 with the 144000 of Rev 14 !

Rev 7 is from the children of Israel, this is the remnant that will come into the Kingdom during this time.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

You would have noticed that people mix them up

Whoa! Hold on there. :D Two groups of 144,000? Now you're starting to lose me. There is only ONE group of firstfruits (144,000), and the Bible does not support a "second" group. There is not another 144,000 that are biological descendents of Israel. You are carrying over portions of the Old Covenant and attempting to meld them into the New Covenant. This is intimately related to my previous post comparing the Millennium of the Old and New Covenant.

Remember, God redefined Israel.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

"In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 3:4-6)

The 144,000 will be descendants of Abraham (i.e. Abraham's seed; those who belong to Christ; redefined Israel). But, the 144,000 will not necessarily be biological Israelites. The 144,000 will come from every race of people. God's Word says the numberless multitude that go through the Great Tribulation will come from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. The firstfruits are a sample of that harvest. God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and the way Revelation 7 fulfills this is just stunning. Because the numberless multitude will be of many nations, the firstfruits (144,000) of the same harvest will be of many nations. The firstfruits are a sample of the coming harvest . It amazes me how God's promise to Abraham is so beautifully realized in the Great Harvest that consummates the end of this age. The Plan of God is indeed perfect.

 

[Cornelius]

I totally agree with and understand spiritual Israel. But we still have a remnant coming into the Kingdom of physical Israel too. I am happy to stand alone on this, LOL , because this is one understanding that is neither here, nor there. As long as people do see the first fruits 144000 of Rev 14 as the man child ministry, I am happy to not bring in the 144000 of Rev 7.

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind

....it was all a big mistake? God didn't know what was going to happen? What about the other prophecy Ezekiel was Divinely inspired to write? Is it also null and void?

Yes, it was a big mistake.....on Israel's part. They broke the Covenant! And of course God knew it was going to happen.

That is my point. Of course He knew the covenant would be broken. The covenant is NOT the temple written of in Ezekiel. Because the old covenant would be broken and a New Covenant made does that in any way negate the building of a temple? Knowing that we are now His temple, does that mean that in the millennium there will be a literal temple built or is it all spiritual? I don't know. But, I do know that....

• * Revelation 10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.
  
  * Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

From those passages we see that the "kings and priests" will reign on earth (earth = people and/or our actual planet earth). We also see that the "beloved city "is here as well as the "camp of the saints." Is that the temple, or should I ask....are they the temple? There are many questions but nevertheless....there is still a temple on earth during the millennium and the temple isn't the covenant but is filled with those with which His covenant was made.