The Seven Seals

[Cornelius]

You are welcome to commend on what you think the moving away from scripture is. The thread will then move in that direction, but you say you do not mind

As far as I can gather, we were in agreement up to the second group of 144000 ? I understand why you say, what you say. Spiritual Israel is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Israel. But we do we a physical event still coming and that is the Jewish remnant that must come into the Kingdom. That is a real event and it is still going to happen. Where else (if not in Rev 7 ) would you say it is mentioned , because it is rather a big event.

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
That is my point. Of course He knew the covenant would be broken. The covenant is NOT the temple written of in Ezekiel. Because the old covenant would be broken and a New Covenant made does that in any way negate the building of a temple? Knowing that we are now His temple, does that mean that in the millennium there will be a literal temple built or is it all spiritual? I don't know. But, I do know that....

* Revelation 10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

* Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

From those passages we see that the "kings and priests" will reign on earth (earth = people and/or our actual planet earth). We also see that the "beloved city "is here as well as the "camp of the saints." Is that the temple, or should I ask....are they the temple? There are many questions but nevertheless....there is still a temple on earth during the millennium and the temple isn't the covenant but is filled with those with which His covenant was made.

OK . I'm not sure how this is relevant to Ezekiel's vision of the Millennium becoming obsolete, and I'm not sure what your point is here.

The point is...the millennial temple doesn't become obsolete. You are associating the New Covenant with erasing the temple written of in Ezekiel and...that isn't written. They aren't the same thing. The temple isn't the covenant.

By quoting the above verses, about His elect, the saints and His beloved city being on earth during the millennium, it demonstrates that there is indeed a temple on earth during the millennium.

[quote:3io75bvw]Originally posted by Cornelius
You are seeing types and shadows where there are no types relating to this matter.
We have also moved away very far, from the Seven Seals. I apologize !!!

No need to apologize. It's my thread, and I don't mind the little side trips. But as for "moving far away" - you are both moving far away from the Scriptures. Though an interesting discussion; you're both interjecting your own ideas into God's Word that just aren't there. I think a thorough study on what actually changed when the New Covenant was implemented is in order before you decide to move on, because you're both missing it completely.[/quote:3io75bvw]


There are two ways to look at this. Some are "missing it completely" or some are not understanding completely. :yes Saying "you are both moving far away from the Scriptures" I see as not being factual. Surely you see the Scriptures being used. No one is moving away from but rather the Scriptures are being more deeply delved into.

 

[whirlwind]

I am going to stop here now

At the moment you are moving away from any known revelation on the man child. You are seeing types and shadows where there are no types relating to this matter.
We have also moved away very far, from the Seven Seals . I apologize !!!

C, I think the verses quoted above are most assuredly showing types of the man child. Who else would they be types for?

May I ask why you see the two witnesses and the 144,000 as not being the same? I would add that I believe they are also the two churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia, written of in [Revelation 2:8-10, 3:7-12.]

What do you see written that I am not yet understanding that show the two witnesses and the 144,000 as not being the same group? To me, they both appear to be...the firstfruits.

I remember that you believe the two witnesses are the 144000 and so you cloud your understanding a bit, regarding the "first fruits" issue.

• Revelation 14:4-5 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
  
  Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

As they are in the position of being the two witnesses and/or the 144,000 then they have all become firstfruits...have they not?

 

[Cornelius]

You have to see : Jesus = Man-child and disciples = Witnesses.

The disciples were not the first fruits, Jesus is the type for that. I know the Bible also calls them first fruits, but that is in another sense. They are the first fruits of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. All the rest of us that followed, are also fruit , but we are not first fruits.

Now there is coming another "first fruits" (man-child) . Only those who manifest Christ FIRST can be first fruits. They are only 144000 (man child) they then send out the Witnesses group. Nothing will make sense if you make the 144000 the witnesses. Even just logically speaking , they would be far to few to do the job of witnessing to the whole earth.

 

[Cornelius]

Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

Only 144000 firstfruits. Here you are looking at the new leadership of the true church.

 

[whirlwind]

You have to see : Jesus = Man-child and disciples = Witnesses.

The disciples were not the first fruits, Jesus is the type for that. I know the Bible also calls them first fruits, but that is in another sense. They are the first fruits of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. All the rest of us that followed, are also fruit , but we are not first fruits.

Now there is coming another "first fruits" (man-child) . Only those who manifest Christ FIRST can be first fruits. They are only 144000 (man child) they then send out the Witnesses group. Nothing will make sense if you make the 144000 the witnesses. Even just logically speaking , they would be far to few to do the job of witnessing to the whole earth.

I don't see the number as being literal but that it will be whatever He wants it to be however, who knows? Odd isn't it that Numbers in Scripture doesn't have any mention of 144,000, or of 1,000, or of one hundred, or of forty-four?

I do see Jesus in the man child and I do see His disciples as the witnesses....for that is what they did and we do. As Jesus is the leader so I see the man child in the leadership. But, they/we are all one body....different parts and yet one body.

• 1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (25) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
  
  Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the Head of the church: and He is the Saviour of the body.
  
  Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
  
  3:3-5 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth.....

• 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Although the saints are dead to sin and their life "hid with Christ" their flesh bodies are still "upon the earth" and as "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" then they must die not just to self but their corruptible bodies must be shed. Previously you said that God counts dying to self as dying but....where is that written? What I see is that all must physically die.


As Christ is the head so I see the man child as the "eyes" of the head and the witnesses as the feet but....all are one body.

• Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
  
  Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives.......

They are all witnesses but with different duties. It seems to me that to separate the man child from the witnesses would be placing a "schism in the body" of Christ. And too.....

• 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's, at His coming.

That doesn't specify that only the man child are the firstfruits but that the firstfruits are "they that are Christ's."

As Christ is the firstfruits....so is His body:

• Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

Only 144000 firstfruits. Here you are looking at the new leadership of the true church.

The firstfruits are the 144,000....on that we agree as it is written. :yes What isn't written, or I haven't yet seen, is that the man child is the 144,000. Or that the 144,000 aren't the witnesses. What I do see are many types giving the number seven thousand and those types are perfect examples of the man child...and their destiny. Some of the witnesses (or the 144,000) will be slain while others will be changed. I believe the types show that it is indeed the man child, following Jesus, that will be those Satan kills.

 

[Osgiliath]

The "Man Child" is Jesus Christ; period!

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and his throne."

Who is on the Throne; at the right hand of God?

Yes, Jesus Christ "manifests" Himself in the firstfruits (144,000), so it is not "technically" inaccurate to associate the Man Child with the firstfruits. However, it can cause confusion if the specifics of "the sealing" are not understood. But make no mistake about it, the Man Child is Jesus! Everything is so simple. Just carefully read Revelation 12. Check out the timing:


1. Woman in travail, dragon ready to devour child

2. Woman gives birth

3. Dragon tries to kill Jesus (remember Herod?)

4. Jesus taken to Heaven (Resurrection; Ascension)

5. Woman flees to desert

6. The devil was cast out of Heaven (Christ defeated him - Hebrews 2:14)

7. He preyed upon the woman (after Resurrection - this is the church of Christ - Satan via post-resurrection is on the warpath - see Acts 5:3, James 4:7, 1 Thessalonians 2:18, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 2:11, 1 Peter 5:8, 1 John 5:19, Ephesians 2:2, 1 Timothy 1:20, 1 Timothy 5:15)

8. Dragon sends a great flood of persecution out of his mouth (recall church history - infiltrates church - i.e. Dark Ages)

9. The Earth helped the woman. After a long period of persecution, the EARTH ITSELF helped "THE WOMAN" (keep in mind the new world God opened up in 1776). This event would enable God's Word to be read and distributed on a mass scale never before seen in history; and thrust the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus throughout the World)

10. When the devil saw that he failed (again ), he planned (is planning) an all out war on the saints (the remnant); which occurs during the Great Tribulation

The war is described in Revelation 13:7:

"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation." (Revelation 13:7)

It's a very simple outline given in Revelation 12. Remember, it is AFTER the Earth helped the woman (i.e. AFTER Satan failed...... again), the dragon (Satan) becomes enraged at the woman and goes off to MAKE WAR against the remnant.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest the remnant of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Revelation 12:17 says that the dragon (Satan) goes to war against the remnant of "the woman's offspring" - Who was the woman's offspring? The Man Child! Very easy to confuse this subject if you fail to notice the specifics.

 

[Cornelius]

1. Woman in travail, dragon ready to devour child

2. Woman gives birth

3. Dragon tries to kill Jesus (remember Herod?)

You are looking at the types brother. You missed that Jesus told John that He was about to show John things that shall come "hereafter". Jesus never once showed John something that had already happened.

Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

If we deny this knowledge given in this verse, we will be lost in the rest of our understanding, jumping between types and shadows in the past and not trying to understand what will be in the future.
....................

Secondly, the Man-child is Jesus, (the whole gospel is always about Him) but this time its Him IN us. In His body. When we think that the Body of Christ manifest, is something less than Jesus, we are misunderstanding the gospel.

Read John 16 and see that Jesus is talking about His return in Revelation 12 as a "child" born to a "woman", when the disciples ask Him about "when will see you again".

 

[Cornelius]

For instance: Herod is the type for the dragon. The Religious system for the Jew in the days of Jesus is the type for the present day Harlot. Jesus is the type or "sign" (Luke 2) for the man child and the disciples are the type for the witnesses. Mary is the type for the "virgin" church, that does not receive seed (word) from man, only from God.

Mary goes into Egypt as a type that shows that the church too in our time will go into her wilderness.

Judas is a type for those sons of perdition who are in the church (part of the disciples) at this time. They will "fall away unto perdition". When we look at the history of Jesus, we see our own present and future spelled out for us.

Many, many Christians resist this knowledge ( I have no idea why. Maybe because they cling to what they have been taught ?) Without this "eye" we cannot see.

We have to understand with our HEART: (NOT our intellect.The intellect is useless (wisdom of man)

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.

1Co 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1Co 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


People think that they can understand the Word, by and through human wisdom. That is so far from the truth. I know SO many people and PASTORS who read the Word every day and have not come to the truth, because they do not understand with their .......heart. Only God gives this grace, when we HUMBLY ask for it. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. We cannot look to our own intellect for support in this matter.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
You are looking at the types brother. You missed that Jesus told John that He was about to show John things that shall come "hereafter". Jesus never once showed John something that had already happened.

No, not types. Revelation chapter 12 is a parenthetical chapter that covers a large span of time.

Revelation 12:4......"and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

When Revelation 12 begins, the woman is in pain to be delivered. Notice the chronology: The woman precedes the birth of Jesus (and the formation of Christianity). The labor pains (12:2) indicate the appointed time for "deliverance" had come.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (Galatians 4:4,5)

The dragon is ready for the birth of Jesus. He is poised to kill the male child as soon as He is born.

Matthew 2:16 “When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Matthew 2:17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

Matthew 2:18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

This is an exceedingly easy sequence of events to follow; why fight Scriptural truths what they are plainly given to us. Revelation chapter 12 covers a HUGE span of time, covering the chronology of the woman, the Man Child, and "the remnant" of her offspring in a very simplistic manner. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. :D

 

[researcher]

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth,

GJ, Os.

Jesus ascended into heaven, and then? A war in heaven.

and her child was caught up unto God
And there was war in heaven

 

[Cornelius]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Jesus never once showed John something that had already happened.

No, not types. Revelation chapter 12 is a parenthetical chapter that covers a large span of time.

Revelation 12:4......"and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

When Revelation 12 begins, the woman is in pain to be delivered. Notice the chronology: The woman precedes the birth of Jesus (and the formation of Christianity). The labor pains (12:2) indicate the appointed time for "deliverance" had come.

"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (Galatians 4:4,5)

The dragon is ready for the birth of Jesus. He is poised to kill the male child as soon as He is born.

Matthew 2:16 “When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Matthew 2:17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

Matthew 2:18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

This is an exceedingly easy sequence of events to follow; why fight Scriptural truths what they are plainly given to us. Revelation chapter 12 covers a HUGE span of time, covering the chronology of the woman, the Man Child, and "the remnant" of her offspring in a very simplistic manner. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. :D

No, it cannot be

Jesus said: I will show you things that will happen "hereafter"
You are saying , Jesus showed him things that has been.

 

[Cornelius]

Look, here Jesus is describing the FUTURE manifestation of Himself in all true disciples:

You can see Revelation 12 here . I will turn the man child blue and the "woman" red so it stands out

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

Now lets do the same to Rev 12:

Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Now lets see if this man child fits anything else:

Look again at verse 5;

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

So all who overcome, will rule with a rod of iron.The man child in Rev 12 rules with a rod of iron, so does the overcomers in Rev 2. They are the same group of people, who manifest Christ 100 %

I must tell you, that not ONE person can see this without the Holy Spirit's help. No prayer , no see . :yes

 

[whirlwind]

The "Man Child" is Jesus Christ; period!

• Revelation 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
  
  2:26-27 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

Those two above verses that C quoted for you are the two that opened my eyes to this truth. Jesus is The Man Child and He rules all nations. His "rod of iron" is the man child(ren) that He rules with. They are the overcomers that also "keepeth His works unto the end" and don't fall into apostasy as the world will do.

The overcomers, the man child, are given authority. He doesn't give authority to Himself so within that verse you see....the man child, His rod of iron. As He received of His Father....so the man child receives of Him. The man child is simply another name for....

• Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[researcher]

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Probably should have said "Blessed are they that put their trust in them," not him. :o :o :tongue2 :shocked

 

[whirlwind]

Well, good morning sunshine. What are you doing up so early Jeff?

 

[Cornelius]

Probably should have said "Blessed are they that put their trust in them," not him. :o :o :tongue2 :shocked

No "him" is correct. The Body of Christ is a "him" in the Bible.

Look , God sees only TWO "men" in the earth. One is the Body of Christ and the other includes all the rest, which God calls "antichrist" (The whole "body" of unbelievers, which makes up the body of Satan ) Everybody who is no for Christ is against Him.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;..........

So only two "men" in the world. Psalm 2 is about Jesus IN His body. He is the one Man , but He is also a group.This IS Christianity ! Why do Christians not believe that the Christ lives in His body??

 

[Cornelius]

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

It does not mean Jesus is standing in the middle of the group. No HE IS THERE because there are more than one believer. They ARE His body, so He is there ! This is so clear and yet Christians think is some kind of blasphemy to say that the Body of Christ is full of THE Christ Jesus Himself.

The man child is simply that fact, coming into manifestation as the Bible promises over and over again !

 

[^Lazarus]

You are looking at the types brother. You missed that Jesus told John that He was about to show John things that shall come "hereafter". Jesus never once showed John something that had already happened.

Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

If we deny this knowledge given in this verse, we will be lost in the rest of our understanding, jumping between types and shadows in the past and not trying to understand what will be in the future.
....................

i think you forgot about this verse

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

yup, past, present, and future, all in one book

telling john to write of future things does not prevent him in any way from also including past or present things as well, sometimes past and/or present things are essential for clarity in leading up to future things, like in rev 17 for example where the angel is explaining to john in plain language what he had just seen:

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

the beast "was" (past), "and is not" (present), "and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:" (future), see, past, present and future, all in just one verse, also, look at the next two verses:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

"five are fallen" (past), "and one is" (present), "and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (future). see, again all three, past present and future all in just one verse.

i could go on, but this is enough for anyone to see who's willing to see.

 

[Cornelius]

i think you forgot about this verse

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John obviously did not see the birth of Christ, so that rules that out. You are proving my point.The things which "thou hast seen" we can see clearly in the context is speaking about John's vision. There is nothing mentioned about the past.

The things which are, are present (That would include things like the state of the seven churches, which you will notice is mentioned in the same sentence)

The things which shall be hereafter, obviously the future, which includes the birth of the man child.

Then we come to Rev 4, and then Jesus tells him, that now he will be shown only the things "hereafter"Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.


I am also not basing my understanding on one verse. I have studied the man child throughout the Bible for many years now. He is in type from the beginning of the Bible to the very end. Christ in us is there for a reason. God could have saved us without this detail and yet it is very clear in the Bible. Strange thing about the church is the level at which they ignore this basic truth !

C