There were those that were called gods that were false gods. Satan the devil is said to be a god. God called the judges of Israel gods. So I have no problem with saying the scriptures saying that Jesus is a god, even though you disbelieve that. The scriptures say there is only one true God. So YHWH is the only true God he is the Father and God of Jesus Christ.John 17:3 and John 20:17
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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The Significance of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Context is everything. Just a few verses later:
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
No rebuke from Jesus nor any of the other disciples.
You should at least be willing to discuss it further. The deity of Jesus is one of the most important issues in all of Scripture. He is the central figure of the entire Bible, to which so much Scripture points, and in whose name alone we have salvation. So, it stands to reason that we must believe who he is revealed to be in order to have salvation.
A creature just simply cannot suffice for all the sins of mankind in all times and in all places. There is no salvation of Jesus isn’t both truly God and truly man.
Again, context is everything. We must be very careful in using the same or similar language that is applied to mere humans and when it is applied to Jesus. I have given quite a few passages where YHWH says he is the only one, that he doesn’t know of another, and that there will be none after him. In 1 Cor 8:5, Paul uses “so-called” for a reason. The OT states that there are no real gods:
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the LORD made the heavens. (ESV)
Jer 2:11 Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit. (ESV)
Jer 14:22 Are there any among the false gods of the nations that can bring rain? Or can the heavens give showers? Are you not he, O LORD our God? We set our hope on you, for you do all these things. (ESV)
Jer 16:20 Can man make for himself gods? Such are not gods!“ (ESV)
So, the term “gods” mostly refers to these so-called gods, which are not gods at all but idols made by human hands. When used of people, it simply means those who are God’s representatives. What it never can mean is that there is one or more actual gods. YHWH himself rules that out completely.
Free said,
Context is everything. Just a few verses later:
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
No rebuke from Jesus nor any of the other disciples.[/Quote\]
I believe what Jesus Christ said to be true, that he has a Father and God that was his apostles Father and God, that would include Thomas. Jesus wasn't saying he was his apostles and disciples Father and God. Thomas knew this when he said what he said at John 20:28. Thomas knew that the Father and God of Jesus was his Father and God, just as Jesus said.
The word God means a strong one. Christ is called “The mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, “a god” at John 1:1 and “the only-begotten god” at John 1:18. The True God YHWH isn't the only God or strong one. The very fact that the True God YHWH is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty, not almighty like him. Three verses later at John 20:29-31Jesus is called “the Son of God,” it reads : “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” (John 20:29-31) So everything that the apostle John was inspired to write down in his gospel was for everyone to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. So I will continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. The Father and God of Jesus is YHWH. I don't believe Jesus is YHWH, I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH God. I will not deny this. Those who deny it was the only begotten Son of God who became flesh\human and die for mankind to save mankind will remain in their sins.
Context is everything. Just a few verses later:
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
No rebuke from Jesus nor any of the other disciples.[/Quote\]
I believe what Jesus Christ said to be true, that he has a Father and God that was his apostles Father and God, that would include Thomas. Jesus wasn't saying he was his apostles and disciples Father and God. Thomas knew this when he said what he said at John 20:28. Thomas knew that the Father and God of Jesus was his Father and God, just as Jesus said.
The word God means a strong one. Christ is called “The mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, “a god” at John 1:1 and “the only-begotten god” at John 1:18. The True God YHWH isn't the only God or strong one. The very fact that the True God YHWH is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty, not almighty like him. Three verses later at John 20:29-31Jesus is called “the Son of God,” it reads : “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” (John 20:29-31) So everything that the apostle John was inspired to write down in his gospel was for everyone to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. So I will continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. The Father and God of Jesus is YHWH. I don't believe Jesus is YHWH, I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH God. I will not deny this. Those who deny it was the only begotten Son of God who became flesh\human and die for mankind to save mankind will remain in their sins.
I'm not going to argue about it. I think that's where you and I are heading is simply arguing and I'm not here to argue. You and I are going to disagree.
Everything must be taken in context, and that includes the larger context of the entirety of Scripture. Whatever understanding we hold of God, it must take into account everything that is revealed and be able to make coherent and consistent sense of all of it.
Jesus was both truly God and truly man, the Son of God in human flesh. As such, his use of "my God" and "your God" are not denials of him being God also; he is both rightly supporting monotheism and remaining subject to the Father. A key passage to make sense of all of this is Phil 2:5-8:
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)
Some important points to note about this passage:
1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--"the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, he did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself. Firstly then, it was he who did the emptying. And, secondly, he emptied himself of something. That is, there is something that he emptied himself of something that was necessary in the taking on of a human form. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind. Whatever Paul means here, and we must always be careful to not say more or less than what the Bible says, Jesus, as God Incarnate, still maintains his full deity in becoming truly and fully human.
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. Paul is contrasting Jesus's "being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God."
5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."
Jesus never said he was the Father because he is the Son, not the Father. On that we agree. But Thomas grasped that Jesus was truly God in human flesh. If Jesus wasn't, Thomas and Jesus were guilty of blasphemy.
Again, everything must be taken in context, both the immediate and larger contexts. I've already provided several passages where God himself says there is no other god; there never was and never will be. This is why Judaism and Christianity are strictly monotheist. To say that there are other gods, whether mighty or not so mighty, is to call God a liar, or at least say that the Bible has lied to us.
But nothing I am saying denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. A Son is of the same nature as his Father, always. To be of the same nature when speaking of deity, means that the Son must necessarily be deity as well. Yet, we know there was, is, and ever will be only one God. That is the conundrum. That is what the Bible reveals and we have to make sense of. What we must never do is to make Jesus into something he is not.
No one here is denying that he is the Son of God in human flesh. And I, too, believe that if a person denies who Jesus is as revealed in Scripture that they will die in their sins. Jesus himself said so:
Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NASB)
The "He" being capitalized because it doesn't appear in the Greek. This is Jesus claiming to be "I am," just as he does in verse 58. Paul also says something similar:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)
In verse 13, Paul has quoted from Joel 2:32:
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. (ESV)
It seems to me that within the context of Rom. 10:9-13, what Paul means by "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord," is not only that he is Lord/master of our lives (surely it means that), but that it also means "confess with your mouth that Jesus is YHWH," based on his quote from Joel 2:32. We see in verse 9, "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord," followed by a series of statements beginning with "For," which means they are each linked to each other and ultimately back to verse 9.
The implication is that one cannot be saved unless one confesses Jesus as both their Lord and their God. Which, of course, brings to mind Thomas's confession in John 20:28: "My Lord and my God!"
Free said,
Jesus was both truly God and truly man, the Son of God in human flesh. As such, his use of "my God" and "your God" are not denials of him being God also; he is both rightly supporting monotheism and remaining subject to the Father. A key passage to make sense of all of this is Phil 2:5-8:
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)[/QUOTE\]
Here at Philippians2:5,6 many people try to convince me Jesus is God because they say because he is in God's form he's equal to God, but I dont see in Philippians 2:6 where it is saying Jesus thought himself to be equal to God. At verses 2 thru 4 of Philippians chapter 2 the apostle was telling the Philippian Christians: "make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind. 3 Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, 4 as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."
Then verse 5 of Philippians chapter 2 the apostle tells those Philippian Christians he was speaking to in verses 2-4 to have the same mind as Jesus. Then verse 6 tells us that mind that Jesus had. So I don't believe that the apostle was telling the Philippian Christians he was talking to in verses 2-4 that he wanted them to think themselves equal with God because as many people say that was the mind that was in Jesus so that's the same mind that the Philippian Christians should have. The apostle wanted the Philippians Christians he was talking to in verses 2-4 in chapter 2 of Philippians to follow the greatest example of humility, who although he was in God's form, he never snatched at the idea of being equal to God.
This is what I get from Philippians 2:2-6. So like I said I don't believe Jesus to be God, I believe him to be the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus was both truly God and truly man, the Son of God in human flesh. As such, his use of "my God" and "your God" are not denials of him being God also; he is both rightly supporting monotheism and remaining subject to the Father. A key passage to make sense of all of this is Phil 2:5-8:
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)[/QUOTE\]
Here at Philippians2:5,6 many people try to convince me Jesus is God because they say because he is in God's form he's equal to God, but I dont see in Philippians 2:6 where it is saying Jesus thought himself to be equal to God. At verses 2 thru 4 of Philippians chapter 2 the apostle was telling the Philippian Christians: "make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind. 3 Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, 4 as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."
Then verse 5 of Philippians chapter 2 the apostle tells those Philippian Christians he was speaking to in verses 2-4 to have the same mind as Jesus. Then verse 6 tells us that mind that Jesus had. So I don't believe that the apostle was telling the Philippian Christians he was talking to in verses 2-4 that he wanted them to think themselves equal with God because as many people say that was the mind that was in Jesus so that's the same mind that the Philippian Christians should have. The apostle wanted the Philippians Christians he was talking to in verses 2-4 in chapter 2 of Philippians to follow the greatest example of humility, who although he was in God's form, he never snatched at the idea of being equal to God.
This is what I get from Philippians 2:2-6. So like I said I don't believe Jesus to be God, I believe him to be the only begotten Son of God.
I've not seen in scripture which God inspired to be written down that you have to believe Jesus is lord and God to be saved.
You will be saved if you exercise faith that the True God loved the world of mankind so much he sent his only begotten Son so that whoever exercises faith in him will get everlasting life.
Who do you pray to ?
I agree that Paul's whole point is humility, that we are to follow Jesus's example of humility. However, I don't see how it was humble of Jesus to not think himself equal to God, if he was a mere created being, a creature. That isn't humility at all since no creature could ever be equal to God; that is just recognizing one's proper place and relation to God, which is likely what the Philippians, and indeed all believers, were doing.
There can, however, be no greater example of humility than the Son, being in nature God, willingly being born in human flesh, being subject to the Father and "obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
So, back to the points I made about this passage. We must read carefully and take the language used into account. Notice that Paul is contrasting Jesus being "in the form of God" with "taking the form of a servant," which is further explained by "being born in the likeness of men." If being in "the form a servant" means Jesus was human, then being "in the form of God" means he was God, in nature. This is why the NIV is so much more clear by stating that Jesus was "in very nature God."
So, what does it mean to be "the only begotten Son of God"?
I just gave two which strongly suggest that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.
Both JWs and Mormons would agree with your statement. Yet, JWs believe that Jesus was the archangel Michael in heaven prior to coming to earth and then when he returned. This makes Jesus a mere creature. Mormons believe Jesus is the literal spirit-offspring of the Father and his wife, one among many, including Satan. There are several problems with that.
Jesus is the central figure of the entirety of Scripture, whose person and work is the basis of our salvation and in whom alone we have salvation. So, it stands to reason, then, that we cannot believe Jesus to be whom we want him to be and expect to be saved. If Jesus isn't truly and fully God and also truly and fully man, if either one of those is missing, there is no salvation. Although he is the Son of God, we must work to understand what that means, so that we believe in the Jesus of the Bible and not some imposter.
And, as I have stated a couple of times, a son is always of the exact same nature as his father, never more, never less. That is, I believe, one of the reasons why God chose to use that analogy to reveal himself to us.
The only begotten Son of God was sent to the world of mankind by the only True God to die for mankind so that those of mankind who exercise faith in this loving act for mankind will get everlasting life.(John 3:16) Jesus Christ at John 17:3 when he was praying to God said, "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." And at John 20:17 Jesus after being resurrected, said he has a Father and God that was his apostles and disciples Father and God. Here at John 20:17 Jesus isn't saying he is his apostles Father and God but the one Jesus says is his Father and God is his apostles and disciples Father and God. The Jews believed YHWH God to be the only true God who is the creator, the source of all life. Some pronounce the four Hebrew letters, "YHWH" that represent the personal name of God as, Yahweh. Others pronounce these four Hebrew letters as, Jehovah. So I pray to YHWH God thru Jesus Christ.
People can try to claim that Jesus was equal to God, but I see that Philippians 2:2-6 denies that. I'm not convinced in any way that the apostle was telling the Philippian christians to think themselves equal to God because that was Jesus thinking of himself. Verse 5 of Philippians chapter 2 clearly tells the Philippian christians to have the same mind of Jesus Christ, and as I said the apostle wasn't telling the Philippian christians to think themselves equal to God because that's how Jesus thought of himself. I'm not going to keep Philippians 2:2-5 separately from verse 6. It tells us the opposite of what most people try to convince me when they say Philippians 2:6 shows Jesus to think himself equal to God, it does not. Keeping verse 6 of Philippians chapter 2 in context with Philippians 2:2-5 shows that Jesus even though he was in God's form, never snatched at the idea, that he was equal to God. This shows Jesus humility which the apostle wanted the Philippian christians to follow.
Free said,
I just gave two which strongly suggest that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.[/QUOTE\]
No, you gave two scriptures that suggest to you, that a person must believe Jesus is God, they don't suggest anything like that to me. I don't see where God inspired anyone to write down that Jesus is God. I understand you and everyone else has the right to go by their interpretations of scripture, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it and because I don't agree with it doesn't mean I'm wrong, especially since a lot of the scriptures people show me they will take out of context to try to prove their point to me.
I just gave two which strongly suggest that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.[/QUOTE\]
No, you gave two scriptures that suggest to you, that a person must believe Jesus is God, they don't suggest anything like that to me. I don't see where God inspired anyone to write down that Jesus is God. I understand you and everyone else has the right to go by their interpretations of scripture, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it and because I don't agree with it doesn't mean I'm wrong, especially since a lot of the scriptures people show me they will take out of context to try to prove their point to me.
"I'm not convinced in any way that the apostle was telling the Philippian christians to think themselves equal to God."
That is not at all the argument I made, if that's what you're thinking. My point is that it is in no way an example of humility to not think of oneself as equal to God, because no creature ever can be, and that is likely what all those believers held to. So, it doesn't make sense to say that although Jesus "was in God's form" he "never snatched at the idea, that he was was equal to God." It is very likely the believers weren't doing this, so telling them they shouldn't think that way would be pointless.
The point is, the greatest example of humility, is Jesus, being truly God in nature, willingly being born in human flesh, being subject to the Father and "obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Note verses 3 and 4 state:
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. (ESV)
Then, they were commanded to "Have this mind among yourselves."
Counting "others more significant than" oneself and looking "to the interests of others," is precisely what Jesus did in being willing to set aside his divine glory in order to become a mere creature that we might be saved. He is the supreme example of humility and, indeed, there could never be a greater example than God the Son taking on human flesh and becoming one of us. He was the creator who became a creature, the God-man, to propitiate the wrath of God and make our salvation possible.
And yet, I have shown from the context, that Jesus is God and it is that confession that saves. You haven't shown how the context I gave is incorrect. In Romans 10:9-13, Paul clearly applies calling on YHWH for salvation to Jesus, by equating it with confessing "Jesus is Lord." That is, Paul is saying that Jesus is YHWH, and it is upon that confession that one is saved.
In John 8, Jesus twice refers to himself as "I Am," the name of God which he gave to Moses. In the first occurrence in John 8, Jesus says that he is not from this world and then immediately says that unless one believes he is the I Am, they will die in their sins. Later in verse 58 he repeats that he is the I Am. Paul's argument in Romans 10:9-13 is consistent with Jesus's claim of himself.
That is taking those two passages in their immediate context.
Robert Pate
Member
No one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus is God, John 8:24. Only God can atone for the sins of the whole world.
Yes, that is my point. Maybe you're just agreeing.
Robert Pate
Member
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus is God, John 8:58.
I don't understand what your point is. That the Bible plainly teaches that Jesus is God is exactly what I have been saying.