The slandering of Paul.

[cj]

Galatians  6 : 2, "Bear one another's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."


".... and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."


How much more clear could the Spirit have made it. Yet we have those who lay aside the speaking of the Spirit, replacing it with the speaking of men.

When was the last time you heard any "keeper of the Torah" boldly speak of and confess to ".... fulfill(ing) the law of Christ completely."?


The Spirit speaks of the law of Moses and the law of Christ?

Why the difference?

What is the law of Christ? And how does it differ to the law of Moses?

Why was the Spirit so specific here in this verse?



Anyone who declares that Paul was a "keeper" of the Torah is slandering Paul.

Paul was a keeper of the law of Christ, the greater law, the law James (the most Jewish of believers) calls "... the royal law according to scripture...."



Listen closely to Paul speak....

Romans 7:4, "So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes."


Anyone know what "the law of the Spirit of life" is?

Could it be the same law of Christ we read about in Galatians 6:2, the law that James calls ".... the royal law according to scripture"?


Saints, don't be lead astray by the present-day Judaizers, those who preach the false "keeping of the Torah."


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

And the number of false teachers will increase exponentially the closer we get to end times. The new NIV just came out and is called the TNIV. It is apparently now all gender-neutral. This is simply the degree that society twists the bible to suit their own desires. So we Christians need to stay in the Word of God more and more all the time so that we will not be led astray by false teachers.

 

[Georges]

Galatians  6 : 2, "Bear one another's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."


".... and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."


How much more clear could the Spirit have made it. Yet we have those who lay aside the speaking of the Spirit, replacing it with the speaking of men.

When was the last time you heard any "keeper of the Torah" boldly speak of and confess to ".... fulfill(ing) the law of Christ completely."?

You just quoted him.....

The Spirit speaks of the law of Moses and the law of Christ?

both one and the same....Torah teaches love of God and love of man...

Why the difference?

There isn't any difference....just an affirmation. What was the Law of Christ? Obey God's law....simple as that. By doing that you will love your fellow man.

What is the law of Christ? And how does it differ to the law of Moses?

No difference....they are one and the same.....

Why was the Spirit so specific here in this verse?



Anyone who declares that Paul was a "keeper" of the Torah is slandering Paul.

Anyone who declares that Paul kept the Torah is commending him....

Paul was a keeper of the law of Christ, the greater law, the law James (the most Jewish of believers) calls "... the royal law according to scripture...."

James was the most pious Torah follower after Christ.....in the eyes of the early Church he was greater than Paul....


Listen closely to Paul speak....

Romans 7:4, "So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God."

It simply means that believers are not beholding to the law in matters of spiritual life or death. Does that excuse believers from not observing it? Of course not. You don't seem to be getting the concept that the Torah is a good set of Laws to live by. Why don't you want to accept that...Why wouldn't you want to live as closely to the way that Jesus lived? CJ, who was greater Jesus, or Paul?

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

Thanks for making my point...The Law of God is pure, the law of the flesh is sin. Two different laws Paul is talking about here.

Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."

This is reiterating the fact that Paul's sin atonement was paid by Christ, it doesn't excuse non Torah observance....That's the problem with mainstream Christianity, they think (as CJ apparently does) they have a "Carte Blanc" to sin because the Torah is abolished. If I'm wrong please forgive me.

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes."

CJ....a basic mistake in interpretation....end isn't end or abolishment, "end" means goal......the target that the arrow shoots for.

Anyone know what "the law of the Spirit of life" is?

Could it be the same law of Christ we read about in Galatians 6:2, the law that James calls ".... the royal law according to scripture"?

Yes it could and obviously since James was a strict observer of Mosaic law, it's safe to say the "royal law" is Torah.

Saints, don't be lead astray by the present-day Judaizers, those who preach the false "keeping of the Torah."

I personally am not a Judaizer......I just realize what the Book say concerning Torah observence and who in the NT was Torah observant.

In love,
cj

CJ......is Christianity Israel replaced in God's scheme of things?

 

[guibox]

Forget it Georges.

cj and the other 'law of Christ' believers don't get the function and importance of the 10 commandments in the NT. They don't understand that the law IS love (love for God and for man) embodied in commands and further amplified and magnified by Christ and the Spirit.

They argue in semantics and contradict themselves at every turn (or at the very least make their arguments redundant).

They try to link the laws that have passed away in Christ with God's laws of love which are the foundation of even His heavenly realm (did not Satan break the 1st commandment?). Laws that show the very nature of His character.

They can't understand that New Covenant Christians actually obey the law in it's entirety (except for that dreaded 4th commandment, which is why this whole hoopla about the validity of the law has occurred to begin with), with the Spirit and under grace.

It is not the contents of the covenant that changed but the Mediator and the promises. And that we don't keep the law TO be saved, but BECAUSE we are saved. When we have a new heart, keeping the law is an automatic thing because we

a) love God
b) love our neighbor

This is why Christ said that on these two laws hang all the laws. The 10 commandments is the embodiment of love.

They can't get out of their redundant tunnel vision to see that this is what Paul and Christ have been saying all along.

 

[Georges]

I don't know if I'm trying to convince anyone of anything....It is fun (for me) to debate. It forces me to get my ducks in a row, cause if they are not, I will get picked apart....The forum has helped me learn...by researching and analyzing people's posts....Unlike many, I am open to idea's and find it a challenge to prove or disprove them biblically.


g.

 

[wavy]

You just quoted him.....

Yeah, he answered his own question with the verse at the beginning. But anyway, bias alone will try to distinguish the two.

For one thing the word for "law" is nomos, and this word does not always refer to the first five books of Moses. It can be a princple, such as "law of faith". This is not a "law" in the way we would think "law" but it is a principle. Law is also used in reference to the Psalms and Prophets.

John 10:34 and Romans 3:19 are examples of when "law" does not refer to "Torah of Moshe".

And just because we see "law of Christ" does not mean it means "law of Christ as opposed to Moses".

Also, if we are by definition, to "fulfill the law of Christ", at what point do we stop keeping it to move on to something better? Why do I ask this?

Because people interpret the fulfillment of Torah to mean "it was only a shadow and now we move on to better things and do not have to keep it".

Why was the Spirit so specific here in this verse?

In what way?

Paul was a keeper of the law of Christ, the greater law, the law James (the most Jewish of believers) calls "... the royal law according to scripture...."

And yet he quoted directly from Torah several times in this book. How could he possibly have meant something different?

Listen closely to Paul speak....

Romans 7:4, "So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God."

It simply means that believers are not beholding to the law in matters of spiritual life or death. Does that excuse believers from not observing it? Of course not. You don't seem to be getting the concept that the Torah is a good set of Laws to live by. Why don't you want to accept that...Why wouldn't you want to live as closely to the way that Jesus lived? CJ, who was greater Jesus, or Paul?

In context, I believe he is referring back to verse 2. A woman is bound by Torah to a husband as long as he is alive. If he dies, she is freed from the law of husband (found in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 and others, if I remember correctly). But if the husband is still alive she cannot marry another (meaning, as long as sin was in our lives, we could not be joined to Yahshua) otherwise she is an adulteress (sinner).

The first husband, I believe, in this case is sin based on the context of the previous chapter. We were bound by Torah to sin because of our flesh. So once sin died in our lives when Messiah died, we were freed from the law of husband (so we did not have to remain married to sin). Therefore we died to this aspect of law so we might be married to Another, which is Yahshua.

Because as long as our old husband lives, we can't marry Yahshua. The husband is not Torah, as many people assume. Verse 2 makes it clear that we are bound BY Torah to the husband, not TO Torah. So this can't mean we forsake Torah and go for Yahshua. That would change the meaning and butcher the wording of the whole passage.

So if we marry Yahshua, we must be bound to him by Torah also, based off the principle of verse 2.

Thanks for making my point...The Law of God is pure, the law of the flesh is sin. Two different laws Paul is talking about here.

Indeed. The law of sin is a principle of what happens when flesh crosses with the righteous standards of the spiritual (which is Torah based on verses 12 & 14).

So once we have the Spirit to renew our minds, we fulfill the Torah rather than seek loopholes to disobey through our flesh. Paul said that what he (speaking in general of all people) would do, he wouldn't and what he wouldn't do he would.

Righteous conduct was the goal, but the flesh hindered this and so he missed the mark (sinned) against what was good. He didn't want to break Torah, but the flesh lead him to other ways (like lust in verse 7).

So he cries out in verse 24 that he needed some one to deliver him from his wretched body (not the "wretched Torah"). This is done by Yahshua through the Spirit. So with the Spirit, that which you would do that is good and spiritual (Torah) you WILL DO, as opposed to not doing it.

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes."

Yes, he is the actual goal, cj, of Torah.

Anyone know what "the law of the Spirit of life" is?

Could it be the same law of Christ we read about in Galatians 6:2, the law that James calls ".... the royal law according to scripture"?

Deuteronomy 30:15 Behold, I have set before you today life and good and death and evil,

Moshe Rabainu (our Rabbi) told us to choose the way of Torah, which is life. And this way is accomplished by "if you confess with your mouth the Master Yahshua, and believe in your heart that Yahweh has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For whosoever calls upon the name of Yahweh shall be saved".

So with this principle of faith, the ministry of condemnation disappears and the glory of the Spirit, which gives life through Messiah works in us so that the goal of Torah will be fulfilled, leading to life instead of death.

Our heart towards this way of life in obedience, faith, and love towards Yahweh is a requirement to kingdom entry:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Don't forget this one.


1 Corinthians 9
21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.


:-D

 

[cj]

Keep speaking, you all are making it much easier as you openly demonstrate your prideful ignorance of the scriptures.

In love,
cj

 

[Georges]

Keep speaking, you all are making it much easier as you openly demonstrate your prideful ignorance of the scriptures.

In love,
cj

CJ....why the defiant attitude? Are you always like this? Lighten up or you will blow a gasket. :smt058

Relax, take it easy, and continue the debate....insults aren't a good debate tactic.

CJ, You haven't really pointed out any parts of ignorance of the scriptures...CJ you just got answers you didn't want to hear. Nobody does at first....especially when one is questioning Paul. But then certain points start to appear that make you question what you've always took for granted. Then it starts to gnaw at you until you have to find the truth out for yourself. Personally, I've found since I've been in the forum arena, for several years now, I don't think I've ever seen anyone convince anybody about anything. Although it can be done (I was a pretrib guy for years, now pre wrath because of the forum in part). People present their points and go on their merry way, never conceding a point usually. I see the same situation here. How can you make an honest evaluation of the scriptures unless you view it from all aspects?

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:
Just relax. Soon everyone here will find that the 666 'final' testing will be about God's Eternal Covenant (Hebrews 13:20) and satan's sun counterfeit. . Daniel 7:25 I suggest that some perhaps have already made a fatal decision? :

 

[cj]

CJ....why the defiant attitude? Are you always like this? Lighten up or you will blow a gasket.

George, my life is hidden in Christ, I have no gasket of my own to blow.

And my attitude,.... well, defiant is a word better suited to the ways of the religionist. And I assure you I'm not one.

As for my consistency,.... true to myself and hopefully always in the Lord.

Relax, take it easy, and continue the debate....insults aren't a good debate tactic.

Was I insulting? I thught I was simply declaring the truth according to that found in God's word.

Let's see,..... The bible tells us that a person who thinks they can "keep" the Torah in the sense of the way of Judaism gives themself to a meaningless religious effort. And the scriptures are quite clear that this sort of religious effort is one of pride and ignorance.

I simply call it as the scriptures call it.

And I am sure that the best tactic is to remain true to God's word.

Now, if you feel insulted because the truth was spoken, then you need to take it up with the truth giver.

CJ, You haven't really pointed out any parts of ignorance of the scriptures...

Perhaps you may think so, but the Lord knows for sure.

CJ you just got answers you didn't want to hear.

Everyday my ears hear things that I don't want to hear. Means nothing in the long run.

Nobody does at first....especially when one is questioning Paul.

There is no "questioning" of Paul, only a display of pride and ignorance.

But then certain points start to appear that make you question what you've always took for granted.

See, perhaps that's where you and I differ, I've never simply taken God for granted.

Then it starts to gnaw at you until you have to find the truth out for yourself.

Again we differ.

See George, if the Spirit has been given the way to accomplish His work there will eventually be no "you" for anything to gnaw at.

And this is the kind of scriptural ignorance I'm speaking of; you make grand statements as someone who knows something, but in fact, the statements you make simply exposed a lack of understanding.

Personally, I've found since I've been in the forum arena, for several years now, I don't think I've ever seen anyone convince anybody about anything.

Perhaps you should try to simply give yourself to what scriptures says then, and trust God and not your own eyes.

Although it can be done (I was a pretrib guy for years, now pre wrath because of the forum in part). People present their points and go on their merry way, never conceding a point usually. I see the same situation here. How can you make an honest evaluation of the scriptures unless you view it from all aspects?

Actually, you are again speaking in ignorance George.

Allow me to explain.

See, no matter what "aspect" you view a matter from, if you are viewing the matter from these different aspect but your concepts and opinions remain the same the truth of the matter will never be seen.

The problem isn't the viewpoints we have, the problem are the concepts and opinions we cary with us to the many viewpoints.



George, try to understand this,..... if God were to pull a 180 degree turn on me I would not really care. He is God and I am nothing before Him.

I can come to these boards with and empty mind, and I do on many days, and be confronted with speaking and matters that I have never givne even a second of consideration to, and yet, I just call on His Name and like a flowing spring I come to see, and from this seeing I find myself knowing.

Fact is George, I am taught many things on these boards every day, by the speaking of others and even my own speaking.

Truth is, I have no fear of losing anything because I have nothing to lose.

Everything belongs to God,.... even every good and pleasant though that I have He has given me.


Everyday I watch you guys argue over doctrines and teachings and forms and traditions,..... and I think to myself, where is the decrease that must take place so that He may increase?

You all are so busy paying attention to all these things that you have not noticed that Mary, and not Martha, is the one that the Lord declared had chosen the good thing.


Go ahead, "keep" your Torah and whatever else,... I'll just sit quietly at Jesus' feet.

And if I'm wrong, "Amen" the Lord knows.

And if I'm right, "Amen" the Lord knows.


In love,
cj

 

[Georges]

CJ....why the defiant attitude? Are you always like this? Lighten up or you will blow a gasket.

George, my life is hidden in Christ, I have no gasket of my own to blow.

Glad to hear that....

And my attitude,.... well, defiant is a word better suited to the ways of the religionist. And I assure you I'm not one.

No...I think by your post's defiant is pretty accurate...that's ok though, does it really matter?

As for my consistency,.... true to myself and hopefully always in the Lord.

I don't know about to ones self....but hopefull in the Lord....I would hope you seek the truth.

Relax, take it easy, and continue the debate....insults aren't a good debate tactic.

Was I insulting? I thught I was simply declaring the truth according to that found in God's word.

Yes you were, and it's a tactic usually demonstrated by someone on the losing end of a discourse. Maybe you were declaring the truth as you see it.....I think the posts show you where you may be in err...

Let's see,..... The bible tells us that a person who thinks they can "keep" the Torah in the sense of the way of Judaism gives themself to a meaningless religious effort. And the scriptures are quite clear that this sort of religious effort is one of pride and ignorance.

No...it doesn't....It's narrow minded comments like that, that show a total lack of understanding the Scriptures. The Torah simply shows man can't attain righteousness on his own...doesn't say he shouldn't try...

I simply call it as the scriptures call it.

The scripture according th CJ? :wink:

And I am sure that the best tactic is to remain true to God's word.

Good advice to follow....

Now, if you feel insulted because the truth was spoken, then you need to take it up with the truth giver.

That would be you? :wink:

CJ, You haven't really pointed out any parts of ignorance of the scriptures...

Perhaps you may think so, but the Lord knows for sure.

Roger that.....

CJ you just got answers you didn't want to hear.

Everyday my ears hear things that I don't want to hear. Means nothing in the long run.

Roger that....must make your head spin...I have days like that

Nobody does at first....especially when one is questioning Paul.

There is no "questioning" of Paul, only a display of pride and ignorance.

But then certain points start to appear that make you question what you've always took for granted.

See, perhaps that's where you and I differ, I've never simply taken God for granted.

Then it starts to gnaw at you until you have to find the truth out for yourself.

Again we differ.

See George, if the Spirit has been given the way to accomplish His work there will eventually be no "you" for anything to gnaw at.

The Gnawing is a craving need for truth and knowledge, and not accepting with blind faith what someone has told me. If you accept what you've been told without researching it for yourself, then kudos to you. For me, with the way Bible text, Church History, and Church doctrine have been manipulated over the last 1900 years, I perfer to do a little more research on it than the "my Pastor said" type of mentality. That is where you and I probably differ.

And this is the kind of scriptural ignorance I'm speaking of; you make grand statements as someone who knows something, but in fact, the statements you make simply exposed a lack of understanding.

Fair enough....Personally, I don't think I make grand statements but maybe I do....after all you said so. I will admit, I do have a writing style that sometimes comes off as arrogant. For the record, the way/style I write doesn't reflect my personality, I'm not arrogant so the "grand statements" statement surprises me. I thought I backed my statements up pretty well...I think other posters had paused to think about them.

Scriptural ignorance.....hmmmmm there is a lot I don't know, hence the craving for knowledge.....

Personally, I've found since I've been in the forum arena, for several years now, I don't think I've ever seen anyone convince anybody about anything.

Perhaps you should try to simply give yourself to what scriptures says then, and trust God and not your own eyes.

I have my friend....that is why I'm excited about the Jewish roots of Christianity....it makes the Book make sense....

Although it can be done (I was a pretrib guy for years, now pre wrath because of the forum in part). People present their points and go on their merry way, never conceding a point usually. I see the same situation here. How can you make an honest evaluation of the scriptures unless you view it from all aspects?

Actually, you are again speaking in ignorance George.

I guess I'll have to remain happily ignorant.....or maybe I'm just plain dumb.....

Allow me to explain.

See, no matter what "aspect" you view a matter from, if you are viewing the matter from these different aspect but your concepts and opinions remain the same the truth of the matter will never be seen.


The problem isn't the viewpoints we have, the problem are the concepts and opinions we cary with us to the many viewpoints.

You said this and you still refuse to believe in Torah observence? That's a complete mystery.


George, try to understand this,..... if God were to pull a 180 degree turn on me I would not really care. He is God and I am nothing before Him.

CJ, God didn't do a 180 on you, I think Greek Christianity did......

I can come to these boards with and empty mind, and I do on many days, and be confronted with speaking and matters that I have never givne even a second of consideration to, and yet, I just call on His Name and like a flowing spring I come to see, and from this seeing I find myself knowing.

Fact is George, I am taught many things on these boards every day, by the speaking of others and even my own speaking.

Truth is, I have no fear of losing anything because I have nothing to lose.

Everything belongs to God,.... even every good and pleasant though that I have He has given me.


Everyday I watch you guys argue over doctrines and teachings and forms and traditions,..... and I think to myself, where is the decrease that must take place so that He may increase?

You all are so busy paying attention to all these things that you have not noticed that Mary, and not Martha, is the one that the Lord declared had chosen the good thing.

CJ....you see a few minutes of forum banter...you know nothing about the personal lives of the forumites.....you can't make the judgment you've made with any reason.....

Go ahead, "keep" your Torah and whatever else,... I'll just sit quietly at Jesus' feet.

And if I'm wrong, "Amen" the Lord knows.

And if I'm right, "Amen" the Lord knows.


In love,
cj

CJ....Do you want to get back to the topic?

 

[cj]

Glad to hear that....

I aim to please.

No...I think by your post's defiant is pretty accurate...that's ok though, does it really matter?

Not really,... I was only trying to be polite by responding to your meaningless comment.

I don't know about to ones self....but hopefull in the Lord....I would hope you seek the truth.

Hope is what we have be given; its God's wisdom and thus we should try our best to abide in His gift.

Yes you were, and it's a tactic usually demonstrated by someone on the losing end of a discourse

Again you make a meaningless comment.

Your mistake here is to assume to bunch me in with your generalizing ways.

Maybe you were declaring the truth as you see it.....I think the posts show you where you may be in err...

What you think is not important to me, what God knows of me is.

Let's see,..... The bible tells us that a person who thinks they can "keep" the Torah in the sense of the way of Judaism gives themself to a meaningless religious effort. And the scriptures are quite clear that this sort of religious effort is one of pride and ignorance.

No...it doesn't....It's narrow minded comments like that, that show a total lack of understanding the Scriptures.

Narrow is God's way, broad is Satan's way.

The Torah simply shows man can't attain righteousness on his own...doesn't say he shouldn't try...

No it doesn't, but He who is greater than the Torah says it.

Abiding in Christ is attaining righteousness.

Now, what you would seek to perpetrate on the weak believer is that having attained righteousness in Christ he or she should regress into some form of attempting to attain righteousness through self-effort.

George, if you want to go play "rest day" on a Saturday be my guest; the problem arises when you attempt to hinder the salvation growth of the members of the body with your false doctrines.

I simply call it as the scriptures call it.

The scripture according th CJ?

No,.... but I expect nothing better than scriptural ignorance out of you.

Good advice to follow....

Yet not so easy for a proud man to follow.

Now, if you feel insulted because the truth was spoken, then you need to take it up with the truth giver.

That would be you?

Again, because of your darkened state I expect this sort of foolish comment.

The Gnawing is a craving need for truth and knowledge, and not accepting with blind faith what someone has told me.

It very well could be,.... but then again, Eve is proof that it may not be.

Look closely at the words you used above,... "craving", "need", "truth", and "knowledge",....... history has proven that these words can become a very dangerous combination.

All negative things aside George,..... if there is one thing that you hear from my speaking let it be this,..... seek, crave,.... life.

With life comes understanding.

With life comes faith.

And herein we find the problem,.... many believers who fall back into religion, no matter well-intentioned, do so as a result of having the improper view of God.

See, God is life,... and this life is essentially light and love.

When a believer craves knowledge the issue is normally a heavily weighted focus/emphasis on the light of God and little to no focus/emphasis on the love of God. And this leads to a biased and erroneous response to God.

The same can happen when the reverse is done; a focus/emphasis on the love of God and little or no focus/emphasis on the light of God.

Yet, according to scripture it is better to err on the side of love rather than on the side of light (1 John is all about this matter).

Consider the two commandments on which all commandments and ordinances stand; love is the "common" factor found in the two. Not light (knowledge).

And why?

1 Cor. 8:1, "... Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."

And Jesus came to build His church.

Yes there is a time and place for God's light, but it is never at the expense/disregard of His love.

Now you may be quick to bring up the fact that John is very pointed in his relating the keeping of the commandments with the matter of a believers love of God; and you would be very right,..... but maybe a little bit off on you understanding of what John means by commandments,.... and, in your understanding of the fact that it is the perfecting of God's love in us that issues in His commandments being kept, and not the other way around.

I keep saying, you may think you "keep" something outwardly, yet in reality, meaning in God's eyes, you "keep" nothing.

The matter of life is the deepest matter in the bible and is one of the essential threads that runs from the beginning to the end that should be seen and understood by each believer so that God may have the way to grow in each of us.

If you accept what you've been told without researching it for yourself, then kudos to you.

Honestly, when you read my posts are you left with the sense that I do no research?

Your comments lead me to wonder if you put much thought into your comments.

For me, with the way Bible text, Church History, and Church doctrine have been manipulated over the last 1900 years, I perfer to do a little more research on it than the "my Pastor said" type of mentality. That is where you and I probably differ.

I have no "pastor" in the sense that I believe you mean.

And I've been known to spend days studying a single word of scripture.

We may differ Geiorge, but it is not in the effort we put in, but more likely we differ in the amount of natural concepts and opinions we bring to the study table.

Fair enough....Personally, I don't think I make grand statements but maybe I do....after all you said so.

Honesty builds relationships, dishonesty only builds pretense.

You used some words to make a comment and I pointed out the error in your words. Love would issue in a humble and honest response in confirmation of truth. Pride on the other hand seeks to deflect truth.

I will admit, I do have a writing style that sometimes comes off as arrogant. For the record, the way/style I write doesn't reflect my personality, I'm not arrogant so the "grand statements" statement surprises me. I thought I backed my statements up pretty well...I think other posters had paused to think about them.

I agree, and this is why I called them "grand".... meaning they are crafted to catch the eye.

God though, He catches the heart.

Learn to sense that which touches the heart, and give less priority to that which pleases the eye.

Men either hated Jesus or intensely loved Him. And those hwo seemed to be abiding somewhere in the middle only did so for a time, as eventually they were required to moved to one side or the other.

Scriptural ignorance.....hmmmmm there is a lot I don't know, hence the craving for knowledge.....

This is the natural reasoning,...... but Jesus came so that we may have life, more abundantly. His words.

Truth is, when you seek Jesus you seek life. And in this life is found unmeasurable love and light.

I have my friend....that is why I'm excited about the Jewish roots of Christianity....it makes the Book make sense....

As it should,....... but tell me this, don't the roots of Christianity run deeper than its Jewish history?

Surely the path of a believer passes through the Jew, Jesus tells us this, but don't make the mistake and become comfortable while still on the path,... pursue, persecute, stretch forward to the goal,.... Christ.

I guess I'll have to remain happily ignorant.....or maybe I'm just plain dumb.....

No, just weak in revelation/sight. This is what Paul ministry was all about, sight. Consider how it all began for him.

Allow me to explain.

See, no matter what "aspect" you view a matter from, if you are viewing the matter from these different aspect but your concepts and opinions remain the same the truth of the matter will never be seen.


The problem isn't the viewpoints we have, the problem are the concepts and opinions we cary with us to the many viewpoints.

You said this and you still refuse to believe in Torah observence? That's a complete mystery.

That's funny,.... my wife calls me a mystery.

But hey, scripture tells us that God has a thing for Mysteries.

George, I tell Orthodox Christian all the time that I am more orthodox than he. It pisses him off, and yet he has no way to come back other than speaking about forms and traditions that we know from history are not really "orthodox" in the truest sense of the word.

Your "complete mystery" comment stems from that fact that I seem able to explain deep things, in a manner that you agree with, of the spiritual significance of God, and yet I don't hold to what you hold to.

Truth is, perhaps between the two of us it may one day be found that I "keep" the commandments somewhat more than you.

God is Spirit George, and those who serve Him do so in spirit.

CJ, God didn't do a 180 on you, I think Greek Christianity did......

Absolutely, which is why I reject Christianity to the utmost.

But you missed my point.

CJ....you see a few minutes of forum banter...you know nothing about the personal lives of the forumites.....you can't make the judgment you've made with any reason.....

You limit the Spirit in you.

CJ....Do you want to get back to the topic?

Never left it.


In love,
cj

 

[Georges]

CJ....you crack me up....you really are a hoot.... :P. I'm laughing at myself concerning your thread, I should know better than to debate the type.....

Oh Well, wish I could say I've had fun on this one but.....can't. Shame on me. I try and stay away from spittin matches, and I let you draw me in. Well, I gotta to go and sharpen the pitchfork, polish the horns, consult with the other demons....and leave this thread behind. :smt074 :wink:

You've beat the devil........hooray for you.....

CJ......where can I go to watch you walk on water???? :D

 

[cj]

The following response of George is the typical answer of a man who has been cornered,

CJ....you crack me up....you really are a hoot.... :P. I'm laughing at myself concerning your thread, I should know better than to debate the type.....

Oh Well, wish I could say I've had fun on this one but.....can't. Shame on me. I try and stay away from spittin matches, and I let you draw me in. Well, I gotta to go and sharpen the pitchfork, polish the horns, consult with the other demons....and leave this thread behind. :smt074 :wink:

You've beat the devil........hooray for you.....

CJ......where can I go to watch you walk on water???? :D

Its what the Lord would do to the Pharisees every time, and they hated Him and mocked Him as a result of their offended feelings.


George has shown us that men have change little in two thousand years, just as the Lord prophesied.


In love,
cj

 

[John the Baptist]

cj
123 Christian Pro


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 1784

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:20 am Post subject: The slandering of Paul.

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Galatians 6 : 2, "Bear one another's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."


".... and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."



".... and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."

************

John here:
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of things ; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also to other scripture, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

Well, it is not hard to see what the verse is saying, but what law is Paul talking about is the question? In Galatians 3:10 Inspiration states: "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the BOOK OF THE LAW to do them." Man added the chapter numbers. And why separate the context of Galatians as a whole? I know why, the question is for readers. The dates of writing are all even in the AD 52 year.

Yet, that is not alone what bothers me here. Is not the proposed slandering of Paul, but the perversion of Christ's Word! :
That of being unlearned and unstable. It is that.. 'they do also to other scripture,' that concerns me!
I do see that the poster has a 123 Christian pro by his initial for identification of some sort?? But my remark is to the thread topic, and the posted remark, not the guys or gal's brain part! OK?

I did read through these posts & it comes across to me that there are very few that do not slander Pauls other thoughts (Holy Spirits Inspiration) from Titus 2:9-11 of gibberish back & forth striving, and not once or twice, but continually! And I ain't' gonna do that!

OK: Here is what bothers me with this stuff. The Word (Christ) is the Everlasting Gospel! Revelation 14:6 It has always been. No, we have not always been around, or has it always been written down for us, (MANKIND! not Jew!) yet, Christ's WORD IS ETERNAL!

Then in His Word HE states again through Paul as seen in Hebrews 13:20 that HIS COVENANT also is ETERNAL! (unless one does not believe that EVERLASTING is Eternal) This too is Christ's WORD!!
Now my concern with these one verse 'or less' of ones postings! : They are not Gospel, being alone by themselves!. They are of themselves even, taken out of Gospel context. They are of themselves seen to twist & confuse Gods children!
2 Corinthians 2:4 is again Pauls quoted Inspiration, telling all that this has got to go if one is truly Born Again! Twist the meaning of the context, and vain, over & over again 1/2 gospel strivings?? With vain cute thought to be craftiness?? even open 'dishonest' 'handling the Word of God'?

NO? This is clear we are told! (?????)
Galatians 6 : 2, "Bear one another's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."

".... and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely."

Well, most have at least known that there were (are) two tables of stone making up the Eternal Covenant of God. And in Matthew 22:35-40 Christ was [TEMPTED] by a smart guy (lawyer) about these Two Commandments. Now what do you think that Paul was referring to here in Gal? Anyway the temptation went like this... "Master, which is the great commandment [in the law?]
Jesus said unto him: :Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This the FIRST AND GREAT COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like unto it, Thou shalt love [THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF].
ON THESE [b]TWO COMMANDMENTS [/b]]HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS."It appears that the tempting lawyer already understood this, huh?

Back to the confusing twisted stuff. Using part of scripture for ones own 'twists'! Using only a part of scripture to prove a 'false' doctrine! See 2 Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE ... and Christ's Words of Matthew 4:4 'every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God'!!
Here is a quoted promise in the Word of God by the devil in 'person', and it is almost Word for Word taken from Psalms 91:11 and is quoted to Christ which is the Word. What is wrong with this promise? What is wrong with taking some verses alone from the Everlasting Gospel? Do we not hear the promises quoted over & over again from the pulpit, T.V., forums? Are promises CONDITIONAL as in Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant? You better betcha!! Notice Christ talking to the devil..

satan says: "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, least at ant time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
(from O.T. Psalms 91:11)

Jesus replies with the CONDITION to the 'piece only of Truth'. It is taken from O.T. Deuteronomy 6:16. Christ says: "It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord." Think about that!! Christ using the Word to tell [US] that we are not to be like the devil in doing away with the Old & New Testament CONDITIONS as seen in the ETERNAL COVENANT OF THE GODHEAD!

And then we see all of this daily preached & posted up stuff in one form or another! Daniel 7:25
Check out Isaiah 8:20, 1 John 2:4, James 2:8-10, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

---John

 

[cj]

John the Baptist above reminds me of the John the Baptist of the bible,...... THE ONE WHO HAD TO ASK JESUS IF HE IS THE ONE.

Imagine, that John, the John that Jesus declared was greater than all born of the flesh,...... after telling everyone that Jesus was the Lamb of God, still fell back into confusion.

And so it is with the present day John the Baptist; confusion.

God does not speak in a confusing way saints.

Now you may not get what he is saying right away, but His words/speaking is always clear; meaning you know and can repeat what He has said.

But with John the Baptist above, this is not the case. Even after two or three efforts of reading his posts, the content remains just a confused mass of words.

And we should all know who the author of confusion is.


And yes, I know JohnB will come back and say his speaking is beyond my darkened mind.

But to this I will respond,.... "Praise the Lord, what a mercy it is to have a mind that is unable/unwilling to allow any of JohnB's confusion in."


In love,
cj

 

[Klee shay]

I used this scripture in another thread but feel it would be useful here as well. I cannot address the subject matter with any authority as I'm still a student in many regards.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men, For all things are your's; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephias, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." 1 Corinthians 3:18-23

Just something to reflect upon beyond scriptual reasoning. :D

 

[Imagican]

Guys,

How hard could it possibly be so hard to understand what 'fulfilled' means?

The law was needed in order for men to 'learn' God's will. It was 'for a time'. That time was fulfilled upon Christs death and resurrection. We were bound to 'death' by the law. Christ died and defeated death so that we would NO LONGER be bound to it. The law offered sin, sin offered death. Christ defeated death by fulfilling the law.

The Jewish law, LIKE ANY OTHER LAW, now has NO bearing on our ability to Love God. We were bound by RULES in the past. Those rules were washed away through the blood of Christ. He died for ONE reason. That reason was to cover us in His Blood so that the Father could have a relationship with us while we still live in the flesh. To cover our sins, (breaking the OLD laws), and restore our relationship with the Father.

I ask this; are ANY of you who would insist that I be bound by the law any more capable of following it than I? I sin everyday of my life. Are there any among you that can offer any better by 'trying' to follow the law. Exactly. All you can do is try. Christ brought freedom from this vain effort to follow the law. The law was not offered through love as much as it was offered as a means of teaching. If man had understood love to start with, there would have BEEN NO LAW. Man didn't know how to love God or each other and for this cause the law was given.

What God wants more than an adherer to the law is children that love Him. As ones relationship with the Father, through the Son, grows, the more one will begin to follow those laws that you seem to love so much. NOT for the sake of the laws themselves, but for the changes that will take place in the hearts of those that learn to LOVE God.

God loves us folks. He wants us to love Him. He doesn't simply want someone to obey His laws because they are there. He wants us to obey those laws through love. For this cause Christ came and offered His life so that we would have an example of this love. Upon this act, the law was fulfilled. COMPLETE. The Ultimate Example.

There was NEVER a law that was capable of forcing ANYONE to LOVE. The law simply forced obedience to it. WHY?? Ignorance was the key. Just like that which still exist among those that are unable to understand what freedom means. We are not free to sin. But we are CERTAINLY free from the separation that sin once created between man and the Father. The sacrifice for sin has been offered for all time to those that accept it. This wasn't true until it was offered and that offering became the fulfillment of the law.

And I have trouble understanding why ANYONE could have a problem with the words of Paul as if he were a 'false prophet' or something. Two thirds of our understanding of Christ were written by this man. As much as Christ seemed to love Peter, Paul was able to return this love. If there were EVER a man that deserved to be emulated in his understanding of The Son, it was Paul. PAUL LOVED CHRIST AND THE FATHER. Paul offered his life for Christ and mankind. He suffered for his faith just as Christ warned that those that followed Him would. If it weren't for Paul, there would be very little offered in the NT. ANd the ONLY reason that I can see that anyone would doubt ANYTHING that Paul offered is that they wish to REMAIN in the law of Moses and try to force others to accept this teaching also. Paul gave us a pretty clear understanding that WE ARE NOT to live like Jews. We were brought the love of God through Christ REGARDLESS of the Jewish law and perhaps IN SPITE of it to show us Just HOW MUCH HE REALLY DOES LOVES US. This SAME love was offered to the Jews too, they were just too content to continue to live with their ancient traditions. Hard-headed as ever.

 

[wavy]

I ask this; are ANY of you who would insist that I be bound by the law any more capable of following it than I? I sin everyday of my life. Are there any among you that can offer any better by 'trying' to follow the law. Exactly. All you can do is try. Christ brought freedom from this vain effort to follow the law. The law was not offered through love as much as it was offered as a means of teaching. If man had understood love to start with, there would have BEEN NO LAW. Man didn't know how to love God or each other and for this cause the law was given.

Firstly, this is not an excuse. Yahweh never said "be perfect in the Torah, and if you don't, then it must be ceased to be followed".

This is what I call the "you fail" doctrine. And let me tell you why this form of logic does not work.

Let's say some law apart from Torah exists. Let's say Messiah replaced it with some new law.

Do you keep it perfectly? Are you a sinner? Whatever definition of this law is that you have, do you always live up to it?

No, you say? Then why don't you just give it up and break every precept of this law that you possibly can. You can't keep it. Don't try.

It is not about "trying" to follow the "law". It is about just doing it out of a pure heart. If we sin (transgression of Torah; 1 John 3:4), then we have an "advocate with the Father".

We must confess our transgressions and repent. It is not about who is "better". You are arguing points no one has made. I hear this excuse all too often.

And here:

If man had understood love to start with, there would have BEEN NO LAW. Man didn't know how to love God or each other and for this cause the law was given

You have basically refuted your own argument. The Torah was given to teach man how to love, and so therefore we perform it.