The slandering of Paul.

[Aloha Joe]

I fail to understand how the same people on this forum can argue with each other for months on end. I rarely visit the forums because of the knot it puts in my gut, and a pang in my heart, when I read the endless debates (often laden with personal attacks) between the same people. It's obvious, after these many months, that neither side is going to budge an iota. What's being gained?

Perhaps it's best, at this point, to heed the words of Solomon (assuming it's not too late) in Proverbs 26:4:

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him."

or of Paul in Ephesians 4:1-3:

"1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

 

[wavy]

^That's the exact problem. Who is the fool with the wrong idea that needs to be ignored and not answered?

And also, there are too many differences for "unity". We can't see eachother or fellowship with eachother in real life.

All we have to go one is who believes what, and I believe (thought it may be because I just like to debate) that different views presented always help to illuminate the truth.

How hard could it possibly be so hard to understand what 'fulfilled' means?

The law was needed in order for men to 'learn' God's will. It was 'for a time'. That time was fulfilled upon Christs death and resurrection. We were bound to 'death' by the law. Christ died and defeated death so that we would NO LONGER be bound to it. The law offered sin, sin offered death. Christ defeated death by fulfilling the law.

Need we go over what "fulfill" means? I have a whole, long thread dedicated to this.

 

[Imagican]

Wavy,

I believe that man was created in the 'image' of God. We were created with the potential of 'one day' attaining the 'important' attributes of the Father Himself. The 'main' characteristic being the ability to understand and exhibit love.

Because of the turn taken by Eve and Adam, our advancement in this direction was altered and it has taken man a much longer time to learn what he was 'meant' to learn. It has been learned in stages with much confusion in between for man was also created with freedom of choice, (oftentimes choosing to regress in his spiritual nature instead of evolving into that which we were given the potential of.

I DID NOT say that we were given a 'get out of sin free card'. What I stated was that we are no longer 'BOUND' to death by sin. The law that was given by Moses to the Hebrews was given in order to put man 'back' on the correct path. To give us the ability to prove to ourselves that there is a 'better way' than simply doing it 'our way'.

The 'law' was a kind of 'first step' in the path that we were created for. As with any trail that one may follow, eventually there will be twists and turns along it's length and in ours this has been no different.

Mosaic law was for a time and for a purpose. The main purpose was to conform man and allow at least a minimal relationship with God. This has varied over the centuries of course but in general it 'kept' a 'few' in a relationship that was close enough to maintain direction even though there were detours often taken along the way. The direction was maintained enough for a small group of people to learn 'enough' to be able to advance to additional steps in their Spiritual evolution.

Even when this 'law' was introduced and it was demanded that man follow it, it was revealed even then that it would NOT always be so. Man was given hope and prophecy that 'one day' there would be NO MORE WRITTEN LAW. Christ fulfilled that 'one day'.

I stated plainly that we are NOT TO SIN anymore or less without the law than we were to sin with it. The difference is that in the past the 'written law' was capable of separating man from God. Upon it's fulfillment through Christ, we no longer have that barrier to separate us. Those that KNOW God through His Son now understand 'through' the law of the past and NOT BECAUSE OF IT. We are now bound to the Father through Christ, not servants of the law because of death.

The forcing of law pales in comparison to the freedom wrought through love. We ARE the children of God. He loves us as 'just that', His children. Like all children, we started out with little knowledge and quite a bit of 'self will'. We HAVE grown however. Some have grown 'away' from the love that we were to learn, but there have been 'some' that have grown towards the Father. And as they have grown, His love has been allowed to shine brighter and brighter upon them and through them.

We are at the end now guys. Not much more to learn or time to learn it. Things are ready to change once again. The opportunity is now quickly approaching when we will be given the chance to 'show' what we have learned. The time to 'prove' that we are more willing to give than take. It WILL NOT BE THE LAW that we are held accountable to. It will be the love that we either possess or lack. For that IS the law NOW; to love OTHERS instead of self. And the ONLY way that this law matters NOW is if it be followed through freedom without the NEED for written laws. The more one learns this 'love' the LESS law matters to begin with. For the law was simply there to 'teach' love.

Do we continue to peer through the darkened murky glass created by the law? Or, do we see through it clearly as we exhibit the same love we have been offered since the beginning by our Creator?

Guys, we are NOT going to be judged on how many times we followed the law or didn't follow it. We are going to be judged on WHY we did or didn't do what was done. It will be a judgement of our hearts, NOT our bodies. The flesh is weak, but the SPIRIT is EVERYTHING.

Do the things that you do through LOVE for God and others and you will NEED NO WRITTEN LAW. Love God and your brothers and sisters and you WILL fulfill the law also. Not because of it, but in spite of it. Even as if it had NEVER existed to begin with, which it wouldn't have if we could have learned the 'truth' from the start.

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and guys,

What's the natural reaction of man when he disappoints those that he loves. Is it the 'natural' reaction that we face up to those that we disappoint, or do we avoid them and this situation, (if at all possible)?

It's been NO different with our relationship with God in the past. We sin, we avoid God and our relationship falters, JUST as Adam and Eve HID from God in the garden, we too tend 'naturally' to hide from God when we feel that we have 'gone against the law'. This wasn't 'good'. This separation of the past is NO MORE. All we need do now is ask for forgiveness and ALLOW our love to grow. We no longer have to offer ANY sacrifice but 'ourselves' through love. 'THE' Sacrifice for sin, (the law), has been offered. It's just a matter of acceptance.

We now, (if we abandon the law that has been fulfilled), can continue to grow in our love REGARDLESS of the law. If somehow we could separate the laws of the OT from what we've been taught in the NT, think of how much faster we would then be able to grow now. No more hiding or turning away from God because of sin, (the law). No more having to be ashamed for falling short. Acceptance of our selves goes a long way towards learning to accept and love God and others.

 

[John the Baptist]

Interesting thought! Is that not what satan has done on planet earth??? Now just look around and see the results of an no Eternal Covenant teaching.
Also save your end of the year World News Edition & ask yourself why all hell is being permitted by God to break loose upon planet earth?

---John

 

[wavy]

The law that was given by Moses to the Hebrews was given in order to put man 'back' on the correct path. To give us the ability to prove to ourselves that there is a 'better way' than simply doing it 'our way'.

This is not in scripture. Yahweh's not playing mind games. He did not say "prove yourself with this law".

Mosaic law was for a time and for a purpose. The main purpose was to conform man and allow at least a minimal relationship with God.

This is not in scripture.

Even when this 'law' was introduced and it was demanded that man follow it,

Sorry to interrupt your sentence here, but Torah doesn't mean anything if somebody didn't give it. We seem to want to forget the fact that Torah is not "our own works", as people want to say, and it is not something that fell from the sky. Yahweh commanded it.

Even when this 'law' was introduced and it was demanded that man follow it, it was revealed even then that it would NOT always be so.

Not so.

Exodus 19:9 And YHWH said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto YHWH.

Moses also knew that the congregation would turn aside from Torah in the last days:

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of YHWH, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

And so Moses sang a song for a witness against this called the Song of Moses.

I think the song lasts from Deuteronomy 32:1-45. But anyway, in Revelation, those who have overcome the beast and his mark etc sing this very same song in Revelation 15:3. Judgment is about to come for a lack of keeping Yahweh's commandments and this song is a witness against them.

Man was given hope and prophecy that 'one day' there would be NO MORE WRITTEN LAW. Christ fulfilled that 'one day'.

I'm sorry, but you made this up...

Actually, Yahweh says:

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the Torah of Moshe my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

 

[cj]

..... & ask yourself why all hell is being permitted by God to break loose upon planet earth?

---John

Lets see,..... my guess would be that for you the blame would fall directly on the shoulders of everyone..... except...... Jewish weekly Sabbath day "keepers'.


You're funny John.


In love,
cj

 

[yesha]

Gal 3:19
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
(NIV)

He Paul clearly states what the purpose of the Law was. And that it was UNTIL Christ.

Gal 4:2
2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.
(NIV)

Here he repeats himself, comparing the law to "guardians and trustees", whom one was under only for a time.

Gal 3:24-25
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
(NIV)

Gal 5:1
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(NIV)

 

[Imagican]

The law that was given by Moses to the Hebrews was given in order to put man 'back' on the correct path. To give us the ability to prove to ourselves that there is a 'better way' than simply doing it 'our way'.

This is not in scripture. Yahweh's not playing mind games. He did not say "prove yourself with this law".

Mosaic law was for a time and for a purpose. The main purpose was to conform man and allow at least a minimal relationship with God.

This is not in scripture.

[quote:25a4f]Even when this 'law' was introduced and it was demanded that man follow it,

Sorry to interrupt your sentence here, but Torah doesn't mean anything if somebody didn't give it. We seem to want to forget the fact that Torah is not "our own works", as people want to say, and it is not something that fell from the sky. Yahweh commanded it.

Even when this 'law' was introduced and it was demanded that man follow it, it was revealed even then that it would NOT always be so.

Not so.

Exodus 19:9 And YHWH said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto YHWH.

Moses also knew that the congregation would turn aside from Torah in the last days:

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of YHWH, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

And so Moses sang a song for a witness against this called the Song of Moses.

I think the song lasts from Deuteronomy 32:1-45. But anyway, in Revelation, those who have overcome the beast and his mark etc sing this very same song in Revelation 15:3. Judgment is about to come for a lack of keeping Yahweh's commandments and this song is a witness against them.

Man was given hope and prophecy that 'one day' there would be NO MORE WRITTEN LAW. Christ fulfilled that 'one day'.

I'm sorry, but you made this up...

Actually, Yahweh says:

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the Torah of Moshe my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. [/quote:25a4f]

First of all wavy, you misrepresented what i stated. i didn't say the law had ANY thing to do with proving ANYTHING to God. I simply stated that it was offered to show man that there was a 'better way'. To prove this to himself has nothing to do with proving ANYTHING to God. And you are correct and I think that you realized that I wasn't quoting scripture. I was trying to offer an abbreviated account of the past. Obviously you ere in your understanding of the past. The account that you offer of Moses' prediction of the future had absolutely NOTHING to do with my following or ignoring 'Torah'. It was a prediction of the JEWISH people and their refusal to follow it. i am a Gentile by birth but a child of God by adoption through Christ. Spiritually there is no Jew or Gentile, but physically I was born a Gentile. The laws that Moses gave to the Hebrews were given to A SPECIFIC PEOPLE. The Gentiles were never given these 'laws'. We are oblivious as to the relationship that God had with the Gentiles up until the resurrection of Christ. You may guess, and you may assume and you may place yourself 'above' God in His judgement, but in truth we have NO knowledge of their judgement on individual basis'.

And for all you 'stone tablet thumpers' out there. There WERE NOT ONLY TEN COMMANDMENTS. "MOST" of the 'Torah' is LAW. There were laws for EVERYTHING. I contend that there is not a PERSON ON THE PLANET that 'still' tries to follow ALL of Mosaic law. There aren't even any Jews that follow it anymore. They are so fractioned and divided that each group follows it's OWN set of laws.

The Sabbath law dictated exactly how far one could 'walk' to temple. Get it? Walk, WALK, WALK. There was NO work PERIOD to be done from SUNDOWN until SUNDOWN. NO WORK AT ALL.

If you touched a lizard you had to cleanse yourself. You were COMMANDED to sacrifice for your sins. INDIVIDUAL sacrifices. Communal sacrifices etc....

This is ONLY a sprinkling of the laws that Jews today DON'T practice. The list goes on and on.

So, I ask this: Exactly what laws have you picked through yourself and chosen to follow and which ones have you personally decided 'don't matter' anymore? I ask this not only of you wavy, but anyone who would bind me once again to those laws that Christ died to free us from.

We are free people. NO, NOT to sin. But free to love God and Christ REGARDLESS of laws written on tablets of stone. If we love God, his laws are written in our hearts. I firmly believe that ALL THE LAW NOW is LOVE. You may choose to worship a God of stringent laws and vengeance. Yes, that has certainly been a part of Him. But He is also a God of love and he knows what's in our hearts. Just as He had to have been aware of the choice that Eve and Adam would make in the garden, He is aware that EACH and EVERY ONE of us will sin. In the past that was cause for separation. No longer is this so. Yes, if you choose to live in sin, there WILL BE NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER. But someone who LOVES God will not be separated by sinning. There is a difference. It's more a matter of understanding now than it was in the past. God knows the intent behind EVERYTHING that we do. We will be judged more on the intent than the deed itself.

Before you contradict what I say, I suggest that you read Revelation. What do you suppose the people that refuse the mark will have to do in order to survive. How do you suppose that they will eat if they can't buy anything? Do you think that God would condemn a man or woman for disobeying His commandments in order to keep from following the anti-Christ? It will involve intent and that's where the law gets in the way. The Mosaic law didn't offer any exceptions. If you sinned you paid the price REGARDLESS of the reason. Busy on Friday and didn't get around to gathering your fire wood until Saturday? Too bad, stone him. This is just one simple example.

Part of what has made the Jews 'jealous' has been 'our' freedom. Yes there are Christian Jews. But the ones that continue in their 'attempt' to follow Torah are 'above' us in their minds, for they envy us and the freedom that has been allowed. No different than the feelings between older and younger siblings. The older resents the younger for having more freedom from an earlier age yet BOTH have the SAME parents.

And to the other posters. Yes, I certainly am not capable of following a perfect example of Christ and won't even try to claim to. I am hard-headed, proud, self-centered, I lie, to myself and others. I have been a thief, an adulter, a fornicator, I have worshiped idols of all sorts, I have been vain and corrupt in EVERYWAY. If you take in to consideration the hatred that I've held for other men, I am a murderer too. But you know what? This is exactly who and what Christ came and died for. He died for all this in me so that I wouldn't have to. You might choose to take this from me, but you can't. Satan couldn't take it and NO man is capable of taking it either. And guys, even though I don't continue in most of the behavior of my past, I AM STILL the SAME man that I was then with ONLY ONE DIFFERENCE. Christ is my Savior now and He wasn't then. He has taken much of my 'old man' and changed it to conform to His love. It is and always will be a 'work in progress' but NO ONE will cause me to falter except for myself. I refuse to even listen to the voice of satan when he tells me that I'm not perfect and never will be. I refuse to heed when he whispers in my ear that I'm 'not worthy'. I KNOW that Christ died for me and that God loves me. I can only try and return what I can. I do NOT need laws to show me when I'm wrong. I KNOW IT MY HEART. I know what I am supposed to do and when I don't God shows me. If you have this relationship with Him then you know what I am talking about. If you don't, then I would suggest that you learn from those that do. I state this out of love not anger my friends. God wants to love us more than anything else in this world. All we have to do is let him into our hearts and that's EXACTLY what He will do.

I would NEVER condemn ANY ONE of you for following whatever part or all of the law that you so chose. But I have a hard time sitting back and listening to you try and steal freedom from others. Our job isn't to judge each other but to love one another. If you choose NOT to eat meat, so be it. That's between you and the cow, no concern of mine. But if you were to try and teach others that THEY shouldn't eat that meat, I would certainly feel obligated to step in and correct you. What God hath cleansed, let NO MAN CALL COMMON. Hey, I am a Gentile, once considered UNCLEAN. Didn't Christ change that somehow? Yep, He offered His blood to cleanse me and anyone else that accepts it.

Oh yeah, and nice post yesha. I am confused that more don't understand the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. And it's really quite simple in Christ stating, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". What do you think he was saying here guys. And do you think that the prostitute NEVER SINNED AGAIN? of course she did but this didn't stop Christ from loving her.

 

[wavy]

He Paul clearly states what the purpose of the Law was. And that it was UNTIL Christ.

Added for transgressions until. It is not used to direct us to Messiah anymore by accusing us of sin.

Gal 4:2
2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.
(NIV)

Here he repeats himself, comparing the law to "guardians and trustees", whom one was under only for a time.

The Aramaic Peshitta reads "schoolmasters" (plural), and this would fit "tutorS and governerS" (your "guardians" and "trustees" here). This would also fit the context of the Galatians being enslaved to the "works of law" group. Being treated as people to be commanded, and not freedom as the elect (Israel). Also, we have to realize who the Galatians are. If we say they are mere, non-Israelite pagans instead of Ephraimites (which I believe them to be since Ephraim, according to Genesis 48:19 had become and is becoming the "fullness of the gentiles"), then the whole application of Torah being a schoolmaster to them does not apply (since they never had, if they were true, pagan heathens, Torah anyway) and thus, Paul's whole explanation of tutoring and schoolmasters and custodians etc are vain and irrelevant.

However, it would make more sense if they are Ephraim Israel, divorced in Jeremiah 3:8. And now, they are returning to their heritage and right standing with Yahweh. No longer under enslavement to the "elements of the world" in their exile.

They are sons (once again now). Yahweh calls Israel his son in Exodus 4:22-23. So this would mean they are reclaiming that sonship.

But even if "schoolmasters" (plural) is not right and the Greek is the correct rendering (schoolmaster, singular), it does not matter. The Torah is not our teacher to point out our sin anymore. We see the way to forgiveness.

Anyway, your mistake, along with Imagican's mistake is assuming "freedom" is freedom from Torah. This is incorrect. The freedom is freedom from exile and captivity (please see the gospel in Luke 4:18-21). The "works of law" Jews were bringing them back into bondage from those elements of the world of being subject to men (and doing this through the perpertration of Torah with their added burdens and lies) and denying them true justification to be considered the firstborn heirs (which is Israel, once again, according to Exodus 4:22-23) they are through Messiah.

You probably (I have no doubt) think I'm twisting the scripture to fit my views. But ultimately, the whole of it doesn't make sense according to your interpretation. Also, your interpretation is traditional and it is already implanted into your mind that the Torah is "done away with" and a "burden" and a "yoke of bondage". So naturally, you will from the start see things from that point of view.

So much for open minds...

Gal 3:24-25
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
(NIV)

In case you were wondering like "WTH???", this is the scripture I was referring to when I mentioned the Peshitta (schoolmasterS plural thing). The Greek doesn't even contain the word "law" in verse 25.

But like I said, it does not matter. Please see above.

 

[wavy]

The laws that Moses gave to the Hebrews were given to A SPECIFIC PEOPLE. The Gentiles were never given these 'laws'.

Exodus 12:49 One Torah shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of Torah, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am YHWH your God.

Numbers 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto YHWH; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Numbers 15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before YHWH
Numbers 15:16 One Torah and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Numbers 15:29 Ye shall have one Torah for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Deuteronomy 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear YHWH your God, and observe to do all the words of this Torah:

Yahweh didn't care who you were. But the key was to recognize his chosen people and join yourself to Yahweh and be considered one of them, oooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

You could stay a pagan and be considered a full-fledged, bona fide "gentile".

You will be stuck as an onlooker as Moses said:

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as YHWH my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deuteronomy 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as YHWH our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this Torah, which I set before you this day?


Deuteronomy 28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of YHWH; and they shall be afraid of thee.

And if you think some type of dispensation has occured to where this does not apply anymore, please read Yahweh's end time application:

Ezekiel 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I YHWH do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

So you can heed the advice of Yahweh...or not:

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

 

[Imagican]

Wavy,

i am neither Jew nor Gentile in Spirit. By birth I am Gentile as far as I can trace my lineage. I am not of the lineage of the 'first chosen'. This is no deterent though for Christ has brought me into the fold of ALL God's people.

I am still curious though. From your perspective, am I to follow 'ALL THE LAW' as given to the Hebrews by God through Moses? And in so following it, will this help me to learn love for the sake of the law?

 

[wavy]

Wavy,

i am neither Jew nor Gentile in Spirit.

Omein.

I am still curious though. From your perspective, am I to follow 'ALL THE LAW' as given to the Hebrews by God through Moses? And in so following it, will this help me to learn love for the sake of the law?

"Cursed is he that does not continue in all the things which are written in the scroll of Torah do do them". Meditate and study in it (and read it , which many people do not, having their noses stuck in the NT).

As for the second question, I don't know exactly what you are asking, but it looks like my answer would be no.

 

[Imagican]

So, let me get this straight. You are advocating that the entirety of the Torah be kept to the letter?

 

[wavy]

In a certain way, yes (though not in the way you seem to be setting me up for)

 

[Imagican]

So, you already 'see' where I'm heading? That is exactly where I'm heading.

If one were to believe that the entire Torah should be upheld, then one would have to learn 'all' the law of Torah and fulfill it. Boy, that's a lot of law. Alot of law and sacrifice. There were laws for everything. The Sabbath laws alone were quite extensive.

So now that we have determined that 'all the law' is not needed now, how do we determine which laws we are to observe and which aren't necessary anymore?

 

[wavy]

So, you already 'see' where I'm heading? That is exactly where I'm heading.

Indeed. I've been in countless debates about this... :-D

So now that we have determined that 'all the law' is not needed now, how do we determine which laws we are to observe and which aren't necessary anymore?

I myself never stated that "all the law is not needed". But as far as determining what is what and which is which, we have to study.

It is clear that something that is not possible to keep (like going to the temple to make sacrifices, since there is no temple) cannot be kept.

But a lot of what I have to say on this is answered here: The new priesthood: does it change all Torah?

 

[Georges]

Hmmmmm.......I just came across this while researching Mystery Religions in Wikipedia....Paul/Tarsus/Mystery Religions.......As Arte Johnson used to say "verrrrrrry interesting......"


Paul and Hellenic influence:

Although Paul claims to have been a Jew, Paul writes in Greek, and only refers to the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament used by most Jews at the time), a usage that shows a more Hellenic influence on his life. He grew up in Tarsus, which was a centre (and possibly the origin, as suggested by Plutarch) of the Mithras version of Mystery Religions. Tarsus was also, at the time of Paul, the dominant centre for Hellenic philosophy, Strabo commenting that Tarsus had surpassed Athens and Alexandria in this extent. Paul expresses in his writing many ideas of Hellenic thought used by philosophers such as Plato, referring, for example, to the solar cycle known as the great year, as well as to the idea that one is wise became one knows one knows nothing.

Just in case there are any posters out in posterville who don't know what Mithraism was, it was the dominate competitor of Christianity in the Roman Empire. Also, it is suspected that modern Christianity is a blending of Judaism and the Mystery Religion of Mithros......

Kind of gives a new perspective on "Mystery Babylon".....

 

[Vic C.]

...Just in case there are any posters out in posterville who don't know what Mithraism was, it was the dominate competitor of Christianity in the Roman Empire. Also, it is suspected that modern Christianity is a blending of Judaism and the Mystery Religion of Mithros......

Kind of gives a new perspective on "Mystery Babylon".....

Yup, yup, we sort have been discussing this in the "Christmas" thread. Thanks George.

 

[Georges]

Sorry....haven't been on in a while....family in town....