The slandering of Paul.

[cj]

KleeShay, I just want to make something a little more clear regarding what you and Wavy are speaking about,...

The first preaching of the saving gospel of God took place in Genesis 3, when God preached the gospel to Eve,

"And Jehovah God said to the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate. And Jehovah God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all the cattle And more than all the animals of the field: Upon your stomach you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life.

(The preaching of the gospel).... And I will put enmity Between you and the woman And between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel.

To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply Your pain in your childbearing; In pain you will bring forth children. And your desire will be to your husband, And he will rule over you.

And to Adam He said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil will you eat of it All the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will bring forth for you, And you will eat the herb of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread Until you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.

(and Adam believed God/the gospel He preached)... And the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of..... all living (not dead).

And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins and clothed them (thus instituting the way in which man can be brought back into a right standing with God, the way which woyld ultimately lead to Jesus' death).


Also note that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Therefore, all men have had the opportunity to believe and be saved.

What took place in the OT regarding the way of salvation, which was a mystery, was revealed in the NT scriptures.

Wavy is absolutely right to say that God's salvation of man is all over the OT,.... fact is we can find Jesus all over the OT also. But we can do this today because we know what to look for as a result of having had the mystery revealed to us in the NT.

God spoke creation into being (OT),...... Jesus is the word/speaking of God (NT).

God placed the tree of life in the garden (OT),..... Jesus is life (NT).


Anyway, just be clear on this, the bible is just one speaking of God, and there is no seperating the OT from the NT.

Where there is seperation is in how God deals with men, called ages or dispensations (meaning how God dispenses Himself to men).

But this is for another thread.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

Before you point the finger, let us see what you said first...

This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false. I believe this is your opinion. No scripture can support this...

Did I slander you or did I provide the scripture you said could not support my statements? You have not addressed the scripture you have merely demonstrated offence.

The scripture was irrelevant to anything. I don't have to "address" something that does not hinder my point. Especially when it is pointless.

Do you believe the Lord's words or don't you? Was this written in the OT or the NT? If this NT scripture was not essential to Jesus giving life; then why would Jesus bother opening his mouth at all - why not just become the sacrifice? He said it because it was his father's will. Why was it his father's will then? Do you have the means to ask God himself? No you don't (not yet) but you can take issue with another who sees the life for what it is.

These questions make no sense and are irrelevant to anything I said. I believe his words. Of course, I believe how you have used them is irrelevant, once again.

Are you offended by the Lord's words or are you offended by my interpretation of life? Why are you offened that I see life in Jesus Christ and what he said?

See above.

The OT scriptures and the men who contributed to their writings are not the thieves and robbers; but those who would place it before the life which would be given as a randsom for many - that he came to fulfill all his father's works; those men would be as thieves and robbers to climb up another way and not use the door.

I say again that you have used this scripture improperly, abstractly, and far out of context. Nothing in this passage says anything about placing the "OT" before "the life which would be given as a randsom for many".

So what you're saying is irrelevant. You are judging me off what I believe is your own misinterpreted, superimposed, abstract view of what those scriptures say...

This is what I am saying - it has nothing to do with those who read the OT scriptures to understand them. It is only when anything before him becomes used to deny him - would they become as thieves and robbers.

And who's doing this? Again, irrelevant. Me and Jay T were talking about how Messiah is found in the Tanach, as he himself sat down and studied with two of his talmidim to show them this very fact.

You started making baseless assertions about putting the "new" before the "old" and other such things that you said.

but you are yet to comment on the scripture I presented

.

I already did.

What does it mean to you? Let us fellowship and come to an understanding rather than remaining offended by scriptual interpretation.

What does it mean to me? Anyone trying to sneak into the kingdom some other way than through the Messiah, as is witnessed by the scriptures (please read Ezekiel 34, which he is alluding to), is called a "thief" and a "robber".

Simple. This has nothing to do with what my point was.

It was not my opinion you believed; so I provided scripture where Jesus said in the NT that he came to lay down his life for the sheep. Laying his life down - talking about it; doing it - that all came via the NT scriptures.

Not true. If you read the Tanach, you'll know this. That was my whole point from the beginning. People don't read the Tanach and don't know that everything Yahshua did was witnessed by the scriptures. That's why people searched them. That's why he told them to do it (John 5:39). They were supposed to know him when he came because that's what the scriptures witnessed about.

You cannot understand the New Testament in any good form without knowing the Tanach. You just can't. Vaguely, perhaps. But not very well at all.

The OT scriptures on their own would not be enough for salvation. Why be so offened the Lord chose it to be this way?

Again, this is merely your opinion. You are judging me off of your opinions inserted into the scripture rather than by the scriptures themselves.

If you truly beleive the bible is God's inspired word - why deny the life offered in the NT?

Again, more slander...

If you don't deny it then say so that we can be clear on it. While you continue to downplay the importance of the NT however and the life contain therein; I will continue to disagree wholeheartedly.

"Downplay"? I said along time ago that I didn't deny it. You made a comment about something being "too NT" for me remember? And I asked you what in the world would make you think that and I also told you I accepted the NT fully.

What you're saying now is baseless.

 

[Klee shay]

Wavy, let's be clear on one thing. You were the first to distinguish the difference between those who have their noses stuck in the NT; and now you are offended that I can demonstrate the life which is contained in the NT.

It was never my intention to caste dispersions on the OT; but merely demonstrate the Life in the NT which you feel can only be found through one route - your route; your studies; your translation of the bible. This is fine for you - I have no qualms with your walk.

What I have discussed however was your assessment with those reading the NT as having less access to developing a relationship with the Lord. How can one who uses the direct door; be denied the understanding God wants them to have?

Regardless of what life is revealed in the OT; there is also life contained in the NT in which a person can get to know God through his Son Jesus Christ. Now if by developing a relationship with the Lord, he then directs them back to the OT - that is fine - his will and his way. But for you to come out and say those with their noses stuck in the NT have no idea about the greater scheme; is just bias and slanderous in it's intent.

God dispenses the life - New or Old Testiment and it is not for you to judge those who start where you would not.

 

[Klee shay]

CJ, I appreciate your input. This is the first time I have actually heard this translation without it involving the slant on those who get more out of reading the NT.

You are correct that we are the generation who has seen the mystery unravel; and can find Jesus in all the scriptures. The difference is however; that we have the benefit of hindsight and can go straight to the life and ask him to direct our walk. Rather than repeat history (as of old time) to discover the life for ourselves by our own trial and error.

The NT is a great place to begin to understand the relationship God wants to have with us. That's all I'm saying. The OT was for our Forefathers who had not inherited the gift yet. Infact it was purposely put there so they would be blinded by the gift when it came.

I strongly recommend developing a relationship with God before venturing into the OT because it is possible to become blinded by man's works instead of the gift which was given by God's perfect work through Jesus Christ, once and for all.

It is never about our works or our knowledge of God's works through each generation; but rather keeping the door open within ourselves so he can finish it.

 

[Jay T]

Anyway, just be clear on this, the bible is just one speaking of God, and there is no seperating the OT from the NT.

Where there is seperation is in how God deals with men, called ages or dispensations (meaning how God dispenses Himself to men).

Do you understand the contradiction you just made here ?

 

[cj]

Anyway, just be clear on this, the bible is just one speaking of God, and there is no seperating the OT from the NT.

Where there is seperation is in how God deals with men, called ages or dispensations (meaning how God dispenses Himself to men).

Do you understand the contradiction you just made here ?

No, why don't you tell me.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

CJ, I appreciate your input. This is the first time I have actually heard this translation without it involving the slant on those who get more out of reading the NT.

Not sure what you mean.

You are correct that we are the generation who has seen the mystery unravel; and can find Jesus in all the scriptures. The difference is however; that we have the benefit of hindsight and can go straight to the life and ask him to direct our walk. Rather than repeat history (as of old time) to discover the life for ourselves by our own trial and error.

No doubt we have what Abraham was only promised. Yet we still fail.

Its a process Klee Shay, a long process.

The NT is a great place to begin to understand the relationship God wants to have with us. That's all I'm saying.

It is, for many reasons. But none of these reasons discount the value of the OT scriptures.

And from what I read in your posts it did seem to be what you were saying. But I understand that sometimes its not so easy to put thoughts into words that others are clear about.

The OT was for our Forefathers who had not inherited the gift yet.

Don't be foolish and believe this,..... all scripture is just God, and God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; and we need to know this God.

If the OT scriptures were for past folk then why would the Spirit constantly refer to them in the NT scriptures.

Its all just God Klee Shay, and if you ignore the OT you in fact ignore God.

Infact it was purposely put there so they would be blinded by the gift when it came.

This is poor understanding of how God works in His wisdom, and therefore it is a completely erroneous conclusion of scripture.

I strongly recommend developing a relationship with God before venturing into the OT because it is possible to become blinded by man's works instead of the gift which was given by God's perfect work through Jesus Christ, once and for all.

See, again you show weak understanding, for scripture declares that it is God who gives the growth, meaning that it is God who develops the relationship we have with Him, not us.

Fact is, you are saying OT scriptures work to blind people, but you seem somewhat blind yourself,.... why?

It is never about our works or our knowledge of God's works through each generation; but rather keeping the door open within ourselves so he can finish it.

Absolutely it is about being open to the work of God,..... but when you have improper concepts of the OT scriptures what infact you have done is close the door to God using these scriptures to build you up and finish His work.


To me there is no "old" in anything of God, because scriptures declare God to be new everyday.

"Old Testament" is simply a title that identifies a particular work of God, but it is not indicative of the "up-to-dateness" of this work.

Fact is, everything in the OT is as fresh as what is found in the NT. That is, when looked at it from God's point of view.



In love,
cj

 

[Klee shay]

[quote:d2101]
CJ, I appreciate your input. This is the first time I have actually heard this translation without it involving the slant on those who get more out of reading the NT

.

Not sure what you mean. [/quote:d2101]

It was just a mere compliment and an expression of gratitude.

[quote:d2101]You are correct that we are the generation who has seen the mystery unravel; and can find Jesus in all the scriptures. The difference is however; that we have the benefit of hindsight and can go straight to the life and ask him to direct our walk. Rather than repeat history (as of old time) to discover the life for ourselves by our own trial and error.

No doubt we have what Abraham was only promised. Yet we still fail.

Its a process Klee Shay, a long process. [/quote:d2101]

Our failure is what God uses to bring about good in those who believe. Of course this involves a process. What you have misunderstood from what I wrote; is that we no longer have to fail without the Lord directing our walk through the Holy Spirit.

People before the Comforter came only had the Law to direct their walk with God. Only special men like Abraham, Moses and David to name but a few; had a one on one relationship with the Lord. Other people could come to the temple; make their offerings, pray and listen to the priests but they didn't really have that personal relationship with God that our generation now has through the Holy Spirit.

Yes there is a process but it has advanced somewhat. God wants us to recognise this by recognising his Son.

[quote:d2101]The NT is a great place to begin to understand the relationship God wants to have with us. That's all I'm saying.

It is, for many reasons. But none of these reasons discount the value of the OT scriptures.

And from what I read in your posts it did seem to be what you were saying. But I understand that sometimes its not so easy to put thoughts into words that others are clear about.[/quote:d2101]

Who said they weren't important in God's plans? I'm just saying they're not as important as placing them before Jesus. I read the OT scriptures through the life of Jesus not the education of generations of men which began with Adam. I do not worship the scriptures - old or new - I worship the Lord. If I demonstrate any favouritism to the NT it's only because I'm trying to develop my relationship with God through understanding the life of his Son.

[quote:d2101]The OT was for our Forefathers who had not inherited the gift yet.

Don't be foolish and believe this,..... all scripture is just God, and God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; and we need to know this God.

If the OT scriptures were for past folk then why would the Spirit constantly refer to them in the NT scriptures.

Its all just God Klee Shay, and if you ignore the OT you in fact ignore God. [/quote:d2101]

I will be as foolish as God permits me for he knows the vanity of wise men. I do not willingly ignore God, he hasn't moved me in the direction you seem to be heading is all. Maybe he understands that I am not ready yet. To coerce me into an understanding God has not ordained for me IS to ignore God. Because then I would be listening to you (a man) and not God (the one you want me to know).

I will stick with the Lord thanks. I may not be doing a perfect job at it but you should at least trust the life God has placed in me.

[quote:d2101]Infact it was purposely put there so they would be blinded by the gift when it came.

This is poor understanding of how God works in His wisdom, and therefore it is a completely erroneous conclusion of scripture. [/quote:d2101]

CJ while I have been known to respect your opinions in the past; and no doubt I will find some that I will agree with in the future - this statement is just a mere put-down of my walk.

You don't know what I have said is wrong completely; you just feel there is more too it hence I must be wrong in some regards. Yes you have found me guilty for not knowing everything. Yes you have found my brief explanation lacking somewhat - but what I have indicated is true in part. I do not have the time to find the scriptures which speak about the reasons for the Law; but they are there if you're really interested in finding them.

[quote:d2101]I strongly recommend developing a relationship with God before venturing into the OT because it is possible to become blinded by man's works instead of the gift which was given by God's perfect work through Jesus Christ, once and for all.

See, again you show weak understanding, for scripture declares that it is God who gives the growth, meaning that it is God who develops the relationship we have with Him, not us.

Fact is, you are saying OT scriptures work to blind people, but you seem somewhat blind yourself,.... why? [/quote:d2101]

CJ, I hate to burst your bubble, but we're all blind. Why do you work from the premise that some are not?

Being blind you need an adequate guide in life. While the Law was written for men to obey God for a time (back before they received the promised gift) we now can have the Law written in our hearts by accepting the gift. If you do not read the OT with that gift; the enemy can translate God's words for you. Like he did for Eve.

Do you see where I'm coming from? I cannot stop men from walking in that direction without knowing how to listen to their gift; but I can at least warn of the dangers.

[quote:d2101]It is never about our works or our knowledge of God's works through each generation; but rather keeping the door open within ourselves so he can finish it.

Absolutely it is about being open to the work of God,..... but when you have improper concepts of the OT scriptures what infact you have done is close the door to God using these scriptures to build you up and finish His work. [/quote:d2101]

Let me borrow your words for a minute CJ...

See, again you show weak understanding, for scripture declares that it is God who gives the growth, meaning that it is God who develops the relationship we have with Him, not us.

Tell me how you can close the door when you're accepting Jesus as your Saviour? What you're saying in a round about way, is that Jesus must close the door on you because you've been foolish enough not to read your OT scriptures, right?

When did Jesus say he would close the door on men CJ? Was the only exception when men blasphemed the Holy Spirit until death? You have made the mistake of placing knowledge above the Lord and what he will do with it in a blind, foolish servant.

To me there is no "old" in anything of God, because scriptures declare God to be new everyday.

"Old Testament" is simply a title that identifies a particular work of God, but it is not indicative of the "up-to-dateness" of this work.

Fact is, everything in the OT is as fresh as what is found in the NT. That is, when looked at it from God's point of view.

We aren't meant to be the Master CJ. We're just the servants. :wink:

 

[Jay T]

Anyway, just be clear on this, the bible is just one speaking of God, and there is no seperating the OT from the NT.

Where there is seperation is in how God deals with men, called ages or dispensations (meaning how God dispenses Himself to men).

Do you understand the contradiction you just made here ?

No, why don't you tell me.


In love,
cj

The Christ (God) of the Old Testament...is the SAME Christ found in the New Testament.

Malachi 3:6 "For I [am] the LORD, I change not"

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever".

Christ (God) has ...NEVER...changed He way He deals with men.

 

[cj]

[quote="Jay T":f7b01]

Anyway, just be clear on this, the bible is just one speaking of God, and there is no seperating the OT from the NT.

Where there is seperation is in how God deals with men, called ages or dispensations (meaning how God dispenses Himself to men).

Do you understand the contradiction you just made here ?

No, why don't you tell me.


In love,
cj

The Christ (God) of the Old Testament...is the SAME Christ found in the New Testament.

Malachi 3:6 "For I [am] the LORD, I change not"

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever".

Christ (God) has ...NEVER...changed He way He deals with men.
[/quote:f7b01]

There is no contradiction.

Abraham could only look ahead to the promise, today we can receive the promise.

Meaning this, in Abraham's time/age God was not yet dispensing Himself in the Spirit as life, this only took place after the life, death, burial, and ascension of Christ.

So fact is, you're wrong.


And again we can see this in what Jesus had to say about John the Baptist, that among those born of women there are none greater, but even John is less than the least of men who are born of God (i.e. the Spirit), something John never received.

John said it himself, the kingdom of God had only drawn near.

The Jesus said "Luke 17:21, "For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst (i.e. not yet within) of you."

Revelation  1 : 6, "And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen."


John the Baptist says that the kingdom is near, Jesus says the kingdom is in the midst of you (i.e. Jesus is the kingdom of God), and John says He (Jesus),... "the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood..... And made us a kingdom,..."


This shows us different dispenising of the one God.

God is one and He never changes.

But show me where scriptures say how He deals with man does not change.

You can't.

In fact, scriptures tells us that God can change His mind about something if He so desires, and no one can question Him for doing so.


The church is the expression of God (and by extension the expression of His kingdom) on the earth today. It is the foretaste of the kingdom which will one day come in its fulness.

Abraham, David, Moses and all the other OT folk never experienced God in this way while they were living out their life on the earth.... Because God was not yet dispensing Himself in this way while they lived out their earthly life.



No contradiction JayT,..... its all there in the scriptures.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

But show me where scriptures say how He deals with man does not change.

You can't.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

#1.) "wages of sin is death...is made plain in ...Exodus 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book".

#2.) "...but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". ....BUT....those who do not keep the commandments.....do not know Jesus Christ.....
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ....NO ONE can have eternal life, without knowing Jesus, right ?

 

[cj]

But show me where scriptures say how He deals with man does not change.

You can't.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

#1.) "wages of sin is death...is made plain in ...Exodus 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book".

#2.) "...but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". ....BUT....those who do not keep the commandments.....do not know Jesus Christ.....
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ....NO ONE can have eternal life, without knowing Jesus, right ?

As I said,.... you can't.


Case closed.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

God's warnings, about Paul's writings, stand !
(2 Peter 3:15-16)

The people Paul had written letters to (Colossians, Thessalonians, Ephesians ect...ect) knew the Old Testament intimately
So, when Paul made reference to a subject...they knew exactly what he was talking about.

The people of today, had almost no knowledge of the OT...and therefore misunderstand Paul's writings....hence, God's warnings.

 

[cj]

The people Paul had written letters to (Colossians, Thessalonians, Ephesians ect...ect) knew the Old Testament intimately

JayT,... please, Paul was the apostle of God to the Gentiles.

Do you really believe that these Gentiles knew the OT intimately?

So, when Paul made reference to a subject...they knew exactly what he was talking about.

No JayT,... I'm afraid it just was not the case back then.

The people of today, had almost no knowledge of the OT...and therefore misunderstand Paul's writings....hence, God's warnings.

You're clutching at air JaT.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

The people Paul had written letters to (Colossians, Thessalonians, Ephesians ect...ect) knew the Old Testament intimately

JayT,... please, Paul was the apostle of God to the Gentiles.

Do you really believe that these Gentiles knew the OT intimately?


[quote="Jay T":75c55]So, when Paul made reference to a subject...they knew exactly what he was talking about.

No JayT,... I'm afraid it just was not the case back then.

The people of today, had almost no knowledge of the OT...and therefore misunderstand Paul's writings....hence, God's warnings.

You're clutching at air JaT.


In love,
cj[/quote:75c55]As I said....the warnings about Paul's writings ...from God still stands.

I believe that scripture text because I've seen Paul's writings abused, in order that men would avoid God's Law.

If one were to put what Paul said compared to what Jesus said....the majority will choose Paul's words, over the Lord Jesus Christ's words.
I've seen it happen time and time again.

 

[cj]

JayT, hear what I'm saying to you,.... my wife and I se of what we were seeing.

We did not know where we would go. We did not know what gathering of saints to turn to. All we knew is that what we were in was not according to what we were reading and understanding in the scriptures. And so we simply withdrew from meeting in the environment we had met in for years.

So I understand what you are saying.

But what I also now understand is that there is also the risk that we react to what we see,.... out of our humanity. And this can be just as detrimental to our walk with God as our staying in Christianity would have been.


As I read your response to me I wondered at how easily you swept aside the fact that you had been in error in your previous post.

You did not even acknowledge the obvious error I pointed out to you.

And I'm not saying this for my sake, I'm saying this for your sake. If you were in error in what you thought above then what else can you be in error about.

All I'm asking is that you consider your error in the light of its source.

Why did you make this error? Where did it come from?

JayT, the problem is not what we speak, its what we speak out of that is the problem. And if you don't deal with the source then you will simply continue to speak in error. Maybe it won't be the same thing that you say, but whatever you say will just be in error because the source of your speaking is erroneous.

This is where we believers fail. We look at the outward more than we do the inward. But God's way is to look at the inward first, correct what needs to be corrected, and then He knows that the outward will simply be a manifestation of the corrected inward.

As I said....the warnings about Paul's writings ...from God still stands.

All scripture is God breathed JayT, but the error comes when we try to understand them according to our human concepts and opinions.

I believe that scripture text because I've seen Paul's writings abused, in order that men would avoid God's Law.

Men will be men, and God knows this.

JayT, consider this,.... scripture says that we have these riches in... EARTHEN VESSELS. Do you know what this means JayT?

It means that God in His great wisdom has left men with a certain aspect of our fallen nature. To be an earthen vessel means that we are still just dust, and will conduct ourselves like the dust that we are.

And it is God's wisdom to leave us like this for a time.

Don't make the mistake to condemn men for acting according to the dust that they are, praise God for the hope that all dust-men/earthen-men have.


And it is this that is lacking the most among believers.

We are so busy condemning each other according to our earthen concepts and opinions that we become distracted from giving God praise at all times.


Tell me JayT, if I had praised God for the hope He had given you even before you even knew of it, wouldn't that have been a sweet sound to God's ears?


What if all believers turned all eyes to God and said in absolute belief, "God, my eyes see one thing, but I know that in a twinkling of an eye You can forever change what I see."

Do you know what would happen at that moment JayT?

I'll tell you,... the Lord would have the way to return.


You know what we're all guilty of JayT,... delaying the return of the Lord, with our unbelieving hearts.

If one were to put what Paul said compared to what Jesus said....the majority will choose Paul's words, over the Lord Jesus Christ's words. I've seen it happen time and time again.

Paul told us way back in 67AD that this would happen, when he told us that all in Asia had left his ministry.

JayT, Paul was just a mouthpiece for Christ. All his words that we know of from the bible are God breathed; Christ speaks in Paul's words.

The believers who seem to "choose" Paul's words over Christ's words are not really choosing anything of Paul. What they are doing is simply applying their own corrupt thoughts to what Paul said.

But this does not make Paul in error.

How many times have you said something to a friend or member of the family and they completely misunderstood what you said? They heard every word you said, but understood these words to mean something other than what you meant.

The same is true with what believers do with Paul's words.

Paul never said anything about it being okay to live a loose life,.... what he did say is not to become condemned if we did, just remember to turn and repent and try to go on in a proper way.

Paul tells us that everyday is a new day, a new beginning, and that we walk our walk with God according to this principle, that each day is new.

But he in no way says that we can abuse this grace, in fact he states just the opposite, Paul said do not make the mistake of thinking we can be slack because of the grace of God, because God will discipline His children, and it is better not to have to suffer God's disciplining unnecessarily.


In love,
cj

 

[Imagican]

Are there those that 'truly' believe that Paul 'was not' led by the Holy Spirit, hence, Christ Himself? Peter was the 'rock' upon which Christ chose to build His Church, (among His people). Paul was no less than the 'rock' Christ used to build His Church among the Gentiles. What Paul wrote in his letters were the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If one takes the entire Bible into consideration, there can be NO DOUBT that Pauls writings are the culmination of EVERYTHING that came before him. What he wrote were the teachings of Christ.

The only problems that one could encounter when attempting to understand Paul's writings is confined to simply NOT understanding the cultures and problems within the communities to which he wrote. Once one begins to understand these individual conflicts within distinctly different cultures and places, his words take on their intended reference. Without this understanding, they could certainly 'seem' to offer contradictions to the actual 'words' of Christ.

But, rest assured my friends, some of Paul's writings were so close to the problems that we are dealing with today, that he may as well have been writing to the different denominations of our modern churches. We are still dealing with many of the same circumstances that those of his time were dealing with. His rebuking those that used 'gifts' inappropriately, those that worshipped people instead of Christ, divisions brought about by individuals that seek their own instead of that which matters MOST, etc, etc, etc.........

And NEVER forget that which he taught the MOST, LOVE. This among all of his teachings is that which most assuredly matters MOST. For NO OTHER wrote SO much in their attempts to pass on the knowledge of God and His Son. Love, my friends, is what the Father had so much of towards us, that He sent His ONLY SON to die for us. If that's not a perfect example of what God desires for us, then I don't know what else He could offer.

And in closing I ask: Did Paul offer any less?

 

[Jay T]

JayT, hear what I'm saying to you,.... my wife and I se of what we were seeing.

We did not know where we would go. We did not know what gathering of saints to turn to. All we knew is that what we were in was not according to what we were reading and understanding in the scriptures. And so we simply withdrew from meeting in the environment we had met in for years.

So I understand what you are saying.

But what I also now understand is that there is also the risk that we react to what we see,.... out of our humanity. And this can be just as detrimental to our walk with God as our staying in Christianity would have been

As I read your response to me I wondered at how easily you swept aside the fact that you had been in error in your previous post.

Error ?
Or, maybe I didn't express myself correctly, maybe my fault.

You did not even acknowledge the obvious error I pointed out to you.

And I'm not saying this for my sake, I'm saying this for your sake. If you were in error in what you thought above then what else can you be in error about.

All I'm asking is that you consider your error in the light of its source.

Why did you make this error? Where did it come from?

JayT, the problem is not what we speak, its what we speak out of that is the problem. And if you don't deal with the source then you will simply continue to speak in error. Maybe it won't be the same thing that you say, but whatever you say will just be in error because the source of your speaking is erroneous.

OK. please be specific as to exactly what my error (in your eyes is) ?

This is where we believers fail. We look at the outward more than we do the inward. But God's way is to look at the inward first, correct what needs to be corrected, and then He knows that the outward will simply be a manifestation of the corrected inward.

As I said....the warnings about Paul's writings ...from God still stands.

All scripture is God breathed JayT, but the error comes when we try to understand them according to our human concepts and opinions.

Agreed, But, please realize that I'm a firm believer in (Isaiah 8:20).

We are so busy condemning each other according to our earthen concepts and opinions that we become distracted from giving God praise at all times.

Have you read that it is also our duty to keep the commandments of God ?
(Ecclesiastes 12:13,14)

JayT, Paul was just a mouthpiece for Christ. All his words that we know of from the bible are God breathed; Christ speaks in Paul's words.

The believers who seem to "choose" Paul's words over Christ's words are not really choosing anything of Paul. What they are doing is simply applying their own corrupt thoughts to what Paul said.

But this does not make Paul in error.

Never said Paul was in error.
It is people's interpretation of paul's words, that makes people in error....such as (Colossians 2:14-16)

How many times have you said something to a friend or member of the family and they completely misunderstood what you said? They heard every word you said, but understood these words to mean something other than what you meant.

More than I would like to happen, LOL.

The same is true with what believers do with Paul's words.

Paul never said anything about it being okay to live a loose life,.... what he did say is not to become condemned if we did, just remember to turn and repent and try to go on in a proper way.

Paul tells us that everyday is a new day, a new beginning, and that we walk our walk with God according to this principle, that each day is new.

But he in no way says that we can abuse this grace, in fact he states just the opposite, Paul said do not make the mistake of thinking we can be slack because of the grace of God, because God will discipline His children, and it is better not to have to suffer God's disciplining unnecessarily.


In love,
cj

I'm glad to hear you say what you've said, Thanks !

 

[cj]

The error....

The people Paul had written letters to (Colossians, Thessalonians, Ephesians ect...ect) knew the Old Testament intimately

JayT,... please, Paul was the apostle of God to the Gentiles.

Do you really believe that these Gentiles knew the OT intimately?

So, when Paul made reference to a subject...they knew exactly what he was talking about.

No JayT,... I'm afraid it just was not the case back then.

Gentiles are non-Jew, meaning non-believers.

Being non-Jew thus non-believing, it can safely be said that they would not have had initimate knowledge of the Jewish old testament scriptures.

Additionally, it is a historical fact that Jews did not consider any to have intimate knowledge of the old testament scriptures... until having studied these scriptures for somewhere in the region of twenty years.

That's doing nothing else daily for twenty years.

Do you really think that non-Jewish non-believers studied the old testament scriptures daily for twenty years of their life?

I don't think so.


And, it was not a matter of how you expressed yourself, as your expressing was very simple and clear, as was your use of what you declared as some sort of support for what you said after, concerning believers today not knowing the OT scriptures.


JayT, this statement of your's was an error on your part, and it lead you to make a false conclusion.

Error can only produce more error.

And this is my point.

If the source is corrupt, then whatever comes out of it is also corrupt, no matter how good it may sound.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

Error can only produce more error.

And this is my point.

If the source is corrupt, then whatever comes out of it is also corrupt, no matter how good it may sound.


In love,
cj

That is the essense of the Bible test God uses, to tell truth from error..... 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.