The slandering of Paul.

[Klee shay]

Meditate and study in it (and read it , which many people do not, having their noses stuck in the NT).

This could easily be said of those with their noses stuck in the OT. Describing an ability to study proves nothing but the ability to throw stones. The truth lies in all scripture for all scripture is profitable. It does not lie in the Torah or in the Temple or in the Sabbath alone, it lies in the body of Christ which he has laid down as a randsom for many.

This may sound too NT for your liking but is it nonetheless truth?

Should the gift the Lord gave us, stand aside for the Torah? Just as Jesus said to the Jews when he healed on the Sabbath, my father works and so do I - he opened the law to show the goodness which could come from it. Continue to place the same shackle the Pharisees did however and the law will remain in bondage to mankind and not in the goodness which came through Christ.

The reason why people have their noses in the NT is because they want to know about Christ - for by his mouth came the words that believing upon him and the one who sent him would be our salvation. The law is not mankinds salvation - hence the Torah should take it's place in the body of Christ as he administered it; and not the other way around. The Torah does not administer the Christ to mankind. For he gave himself as a gift so that none would have to buy him in the den of thieves.

If you have to buy Christ in order to believe in his gift, then you are buying what someone else (another man/woman) is selling. We must accept the gift in the nature it was given - without bondage - before we can understand anything else.

 

[wavy]

This could easily be said of those with their noses stuck in the OT.

Mine is not, however. My nose used to be stuck in the NT.

Describing an ability to study proves nothing but the ability to throw stones. The truth lies in all scripture for all scripture is profitable. It does not lie in the Torah or in the Temple or in the Sabbath alone, it lies in the body of Christ which he has laid down as a randsom for many.

All true.

This may sound too NT for your liking but is it nonetheless truth?

And how would you figure this?

The reason why people have their noses in the NT is because they want to know about Christ - for by his mouth came the words that believing upon him and the one who sent him would be our salvation.

You can't understand him without knowing the Tanach. You can't understand what he said, what he did, and what he's going to do on hardly any level besides the "die for sins" part, which is all people generally know.

And, it has to be viewed in the context of the audience it centers around: Hebrews. Can't apply American/Greco-Roman thought to it.

This is why Messiah always directed people back to the scriptures to see him in them. He did not state, "well, just wait for the New Testament".

The law is not mankinds salvation - hence the Torah should take it's place in the body of Christ as he administered it; and not the other way around. The Torah does not administer the Christ to mankind.

True, in a way. However, both speak with the same authority since it is יהוה's Word and thus, inspired.

We must accept the gift in the nature it was given - without bondage - before we can understand anything else.

If this is implying we need to try to understand the new without the Tanach first then I'd say that was incorrect and impossible.

 

[Asaph]

Heb 11:14-16
14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
NKJV

 

[Jay T]

God's Warning....Christians Ignore ?

2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Klee shay]

Hi Wavy

[quote:3d092]Klee shay wrote:
This could easily be said of those with their noses stuck in the OT.

Mine is not, however. [/quote:3d092]

I did not say this to imply you had your nose stuck in the OT, but to reflect the sentiments you espoused upon others.

If you do not have your nose stuck in the OT as you say, then it's highly likely other's have not merely limited their study to the NT as well.

Simply because they understand a different message to you does not mean they have not studied what is contained in the OT. They have merely arrived at a different conclusion.

[quote:3d092]Kleeshay wrote:
This may sound too NT for your liking but is it nonetheless truth?

And how would you figure this? [/quote:3d092]

I would like to answer your question however I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. You may have to rephrase it for me.

You can't understand him without knowing the Tanach. You can't understand what he said, what he did, and what he's going to do on hardly any level besides the "die for sins" part, which is all people generally know.

Having faith that Jesus died for the remission of sin is a plus - not a minus.

Build from that foundation please but don't tear it down to make your point about the Tanach. I could accuse you of not understanding Christ but that would be a baseless arguement, since we both do not understand him equally as much as the other. He reveals himself when we are ready and not beforehand.

This is why Messiah always directed people back to the scriptures to see him in them. He did not state, "well, just wait for the New Testament".

So why did he speak in parables?

If this is implying we need to try to understand the new without the Tanach then I'd say that was incorrect and impossible.

How little faith you have. What was the difference between the people Jesus healed in person and the servant of the Centurion? The Centurion had faith that Jesus could heal with but a word; and thus it was made so.

Then there was the rich man Jesus said to sell all his possessions and give it to the poor. When the rich man went away sad, Jesus said to his disciples it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. When his disciples asked who will be saved then, he replied "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

You place the importance on having faith in Jesus through the Tanach and not the authority in which the Tanach was given.

 

[wavy]

And how would you figure this?

I would like to answer your question however I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. You may have to rephrase it for me.

Well, you had made a comment of something being too NT for me. How would you figure that anything is too NT for me? That would imply that I do not fully accept the NT.

Having faith that Jesus died for the remission of sin is a plus - not a minus.

Build from that foundation please but don't tear it down to make your point about the Tanach.

I wasn't tearing it down, just giving my view on how you (not "you" specifically, but people in general) may not truly understand the implications of what he did and what is meant by his words/actions. Therefore you could be lead astray to some cheap version of the gospel and an unbiblical way of life.

[quote:5782b]This is why Messiah always directed people back to the scriptures to see him in them. He did not state, "well, just wait for the New Testament".

So why did he speak in parables? [/quote:5782b]

He stated this in Matthew 13:13-14.

[quote:5782b]If this is implying we need to try to understand the new without the Tanach then I'd say that was incorrect and impossible.

How little faith you have. What was the difference between the people Jesus healed in person and the servant of the Centurion? The Centurion had faith that Jesus could heal with but a word; and thus it was made so.[/quote:5782b]

I don't get your point...

You place the importance on having faith in Jesus through the Tanach and not the authority in which the Tanach was given.

And what do we have to believe? What he said. And how do we truly know what he means when he says things? Searching the scriptures...

 

[Klee shay]

Well, you had made a comment of something being too NT for me. How would you figure that anything is too NT for me? That would imply that I do not fully accept the NT.

Now I see, thanks for clarifying. You already set the premise there were those who buried their noses in the NT; and from that came my comment about being too NT for you.

I wasn't tearing it down, just giving my view on how you (not "you" specifically, but people in general) may not truly understand the implications of what he did and what is meant by his words/actions.

This can be said of anyone espousing to follow Christ. No one truly understands the implications of what he did and what is meant by his words and actions. Just because we seek God does not mean we can reach out and touch his face whenever we've put in enough study time.

Suffer the little children as God suffers us. We come to him as babes, trusting him but never truly knowing everything he is.

He stated this in Matthew 13:13-14.

Yep, and it hardly lines up with "why didn't he just say wait for the New Testament" either. Your analogy supposed something Christ had never done - he only spoke in parables and prophesy; even when the Pharisees tempted him with scriptures. "It is written;" Christ would say to those who knew the Law, but his interpretation never followed the written word of scripture as man had interpreted it - rather he established the new as God had meant it.

[quote:6f18d][quote:6f18d]If this is implying we need to try to understand the new without the Tanach then I'd say that was incorrect and impossible.

How little faith you have. What was the difference between the people Jesus healed in person and the servant of the Centurion? The Centurion had faith that Jesus could heal with but a word; and thus it was made so. [/quote:6f18d]


I don't get your point... [/quote:6f18d]

You say it is impossilbe to understand the new without the Tanach, but faith in what God has done makes all things possible.

And what do we have to believe? What he said. And how do we truly know what he means when he says things? Searching the scriptures...

Men searching the scriptures for knowledge of Christ, will only find worldly things. As a new creation in Christ however, the Holy Spirit reveals all truths which are of God in heaven.

My search for the truth in the scriptures changes every time I pick up the bible. That is because God will only give me enlightenment as I can handle it. Even then it is only when I focus on him and not the worldly things which tempt me. I truly don't believe our differences are that far apart - we have responded to the Shepherd differently however; and for this cause we should not judge another's understanding while they are still a work in progress.

God will draw us according to his good will, but we don't always start at the same place of understanding.

If I have misunderstood your reasoning in places then I apologise. Discussion forums are notorious for misunderstandings. :wink:

 

[cj]

Beloved and blessed KleeShay.


In love,
cj

 

[Georges]

Hey....I thought we were suppose to be slandering Paul here...what happened? :P

 

[Jay T]

The reason why people have their noses in the NT is because they want to know about Christ -

Christ is found in the Old Testament as well....because He is the God, who walked with Moses, and Abraham, Daniel, ect.

 

[wavy]

Good point, Jay T.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[Jay T]

Good point, Jay T.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Too many people ignore that the plan of salvation is expounded upon, in the OT.

Paul told this fact to Timothy
2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.And the OT ...is the only scriptures they had at that time
3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[wavy]

seems that "all scripture" there in timothy means "all scripture, timothy, that is in the nt which has not been formed yet... "

 

[Klee shay]

[quote="Klee shay":c1750]

The reason why people have their noses in the NT is because they want to know about Christ -

Christ is found in the Old Testament as well....because He is the God, who walked with Moses, and Abraham, Daniel, ect.[/quote:c1750]

The competition between OT and NT is of no effect - it is all about Christ.

You have commented on the explanation I gave to Wavy who was the first to distinguish those who have their noses stuck in the NT.

If you want to know about the life in the flesh, death in the flesh and resurrection in the flesh, of Jesus Christ however; then it can ONLY be found in the NT.

The prophecy about him does not bring life. If it did then he had no need to come in the flesh and there would be not NT to discuss.

 

[Klee shay]

Good point, Jay T.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Too many people ignore that the plan of salvation is expounded upon, in the OT.

Paul told this fact to Timothy
2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.And the OT ...is the only scriptures they had at that time
3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"Make thee wise" does not mean salvation; and wise men can become fools too. So while becoming wise make sure you maintain the "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" so this doesn't become about obeying scriptures only.

Christ is the salvation part and that "life" can only be found in the NT.

Timothy had Paul to educate him on the faith he should hold in Christ Jesus. The bible came later so we could all understand as Timothy did. The NT is essential in developing that relationship with Jesus. Without life there is no scriptures to hang from. One without the other is just dead.

 

[wavy]

Christ is the salvation part and that "life" can only be found in the NT.

This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false. I believe this is your opinion. No scripture can support this...

 

[Klee shay]

Christ is the salvation part and that "life" can only be found in the NT.

This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false. I believe this is your opinion. No scripture can support this...

So you do not believe the Lord's own words - which were not scriptures like old time, but rather parables?

John 10:1-2 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the sheperd of the sheep.

These words were uttered in the NT to bring life - do you believe? If not, let me continue.

John 10:7-11 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill and to destroy; I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

And from what authority does he speak?

John 10:15-18 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Do you believe Jesus came in the NT to lay down his life for the sheep? If not then you do not believe the commandment given to him of God.

My "opinion" you can question (and should); but in the face of truth you shall be confounded.

This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false.

It is unfortunate you do not see Christ as salvation. Have you missed the door?

 

[wavy]

So you do not believe the Lord's own words - which were not scriptures like old time, but rather parables?

How one can take what I said and use it as an opportunity to slander me is beyond my comprehension...

John 10:1-2 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the sheperd of the sheep.

These words were uttered in the NT to bring life - do you believe? If not, let me continue.

Ah, so you're using this to say we have to understand this through the NT and that if we try to understand through the "OT" then we are thieves and robbers.

I'm sorry, but that is silly. And if this is what you mean, I think you have no basis to say that I "deny" anything. Your imposing your own opinions on the scripture and judging me off of them. Please read Ezekiel 34. Do you think that anything before the book of Matthew lacks parables? (sidebar question).

Do you believe Jesus came in the NT to lay down his life for the sheep? If not then you do not believe the commandment given to him of God.

My "opinion" you can question (and should); but in the face of truth you shall be confounded.

I suppose this "face of truth" of yours is your very own opinion...

How in the world do you take anything I said and ask questions and make comments like this? :o

[quote:437a5]This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false.

It is unfortunate you do not see Christ as salvation. Have you missed the door?[/quote:437a5]

My point exactly. I don't have the time. Not to be mean, but you've taken this to a whole other level. And I don't feel like arguing these type of things.

 

[Klee shay]

[quote:f7494]So you do not believe the Lord's own words - which were not scriptures like old time, but rather parables?

How one can take what I said and use it as an opportunity to slander me is beyond my comprehension... [/quote:f7494]

Before you point the finger, let us see what you said first...

This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false. I believe this is your opinion. No scripture can support this...

Did I slander you or did I provide the scripture you said could not support my statements? You have not addressed the scripture you have merely demonstrated offence.

Do you believe the Lord's words or don't you? Was this written in the OT or the NT? If this NT scripture was not essential to Jesus giving life; then why would Jesus bother opening his mouth at all - why not just become the sacrifice? He said it because it was his father's will. Why was it his father's will then? Do you have the means to ask God himself? No you don't (not yet) but you can take issue with another who sees the life for what it is.

Are you offended by the Lord's words or are you offended by my interpretation of life? Why are you offened that I see life in Jesus Christ and what he said?

Ah, so you're using this to say we have to understand this through the NT and that if we try to understand through the "OT" then we are thieves and robbers.

Stop reading your offence with me into the Lord's words and understand them for what they say. The OT scriptures and the men who contributed to their writings are not the thieves and robbers; but those who would place it before the life which would be given as a randsom for many - that he came to fulfill all his father's works; those men would be as thieves and robbers to climb up another way and not use the door.

I'm sorry, but that is silly. And if this is what you mean, I think you have no basis to say that I "deny" anything. Your imposing your own opinions on the scripture and judging me off of them. Please read Ezekiel 34. Do you think that anything before the book of Matthew lacks parables? (sidebar question).

How on earth are you supposed to understand a parable friend? God did not put it in writing so it would make sense immediately. He said it so it would confound the enemy. My Holy Spirit has not revealed all which this particular scripture means but it is obvious that any who would use anything but the door (which is in Jesus) those would be like thieves and robbers. This is what I am saying - it has nothing to do with those who read the OT scriptures to understand them. It is only when anything before him becomes used to deny him - would they become as thieves and robbers.

Even now in this generation - anyone who would not go by the door would become as thieves and robbers to destroy and steal from the Father's house.

I suppose this "face of truth" of yours is your very own opinion...

I have made it quite clear to question my opinion (and should) but you are yet to comment on the scripture I presented. What does it mean to you? Let us fellowship and come to an understanding rather than remaining offended by scriptual interpretation.

[quote:f7494]Do you believe Jesus came in the NT to lay down his life for the sheep? If not then you do not believe the commandment given to him of God.

My "opinion" you can question (and should); but in the face of truth you shall be confounded.

How in the world do you take anything I said and ask questions and make comments like this? [/quote:f7494]

Your statement which I was responding to was...

This, in addition to similar statements made above, I believe to be false. I believe this is your opinion. No scripture can support this.

It was not my opinion you believed; so I provided scripture where Jesus said in the NT that he came to lay down his life for the sheep. Laying his life down - talking about it; doing it - that all came via the NT scriptures. The OT scriptures on their own would not be enough for salvation. Why be so offened the Lord chose it to be this way?

If you truly beleive the bible is God's inspired word - why deny the life offered in the NT? If you don't deny it then say so that we can be clear on it. While you continue to downplay the importance of the NT however and the life contain therein; I will continue to disagree wholeheartedly.

My point exactly. I don't have the time. Not to be mean, but you've taken this to a whole other level. And I don't feel like arguing these type of things.

What other level? I cannot add my interpretations without it becoming about offence? If I have offended you then come out plainly and tell me where, so that I may understand and apologise if necessary.

 

[cj]

KleeShay, I just want to make something a little more clear regarding what you and Wavy are speaking about,...

The first preaching of the saving gospel of God took place in Genesis 3, when God preached the gospel to Eve,

"And Jehovah God said to the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate. And Jehovah God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all the cattle And more than all the animals of the field: Upon your stomach you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life.

(The preaching of the gospel).... And I will put enmity Between you and the woman And between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel.

To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply Your pain in your childbearing; In pain you will bring forth children. And your desire will be to your husband, And he will rule over you.

And to Adam He said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil will you eat of it All the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will bring forth for you, And you will eat the herb of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread Until you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.

(and Adam believed God/the gospel He preached)... And the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of..... all living (not dead).

And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins and clothed them (thus instituting the way in which man can be brought back into a right standing with God, the way which woyld ultimately lead to Jesus' death).


Also note that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Therefore, all men have had the opportunity to believe and be saved.

What took place in the NT is that the way of salvation, which was a mystery, was revealed in the NT scriptures.

Wavy is absolutely right to say that God's salvation of man is all over the OT,.... fact is we can find Jesus all over the OT also. But we can do this today because we know what to look for as a result of having had the mystery revealed to us in the NT.

God spoke creation into being (OT),...... Jesus is the word/speaking of God (NT).

God placed the tree of life in the garden (OT),..... Jesus is life (NT).


Anyway, just be clear on this, the bible is just one speaking of God, and there is no seperating the OT from the NT.

Where there is seperation is in how God deals with men, called ages or dispensations (meaning how God dispenses Himself to men).

But this is for another thread.


In love,
cj