The Son of God started when?

[Elijah674]

The fault with a few of ones postings as 'i' see it, lies in the fact of.. when did Christ/God become the Son & then have God/Jehovah/Father, as His Father? And sure. Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse can be stated by Them, but how about in actual fullfillment for us?

It is prophesied in Psalms 2:7 & in Acts 13:32-33 that it was a prophecy promise! And in Heb. 1:3-5 we see that it had occured in the past/tense.

Proverbs has it as a PLAN Prophesied from Eternity by the Godhead. Ibid 31 even has it seen in for/knowledge when Christ was.. 'as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing ... rejoicing in the [habitable part of the earth and my delights were with the sons of men.]'

Psalms 2
[7] I [[will declare the decree: ]] the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (OK: Prophesied!)

Acts 13

[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

And Heb. 1

[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (also note that we see two seen in heaven here!)

[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (speaking as of after the fact!)

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And, when did Christ/God [become the Son??] At His birth! Matt. 1:23

--Elijah

 

[John Zain]

Yes, boys and girls, I am probably the chief #1 problem-maker re: this topic.

Recently, I got the revelation (or just remembered?) that ...
Jesus really WAS the Son of God because His "father" was the Holy Spirit (God).

We can STOP just taking Scripture's word for this "Son of God" thing!
We can START explaining to Muslims and others how this makes any sense at all!

The "overshadowing" (Luke 1:35) somehow produced a Baby that did NOT have our sin nature,
and that's the only way Jesus could possibly live a totally sinless life,
and be the absolutely perfect spotless blameless sacrificial Lamb of God (to pay for our sins)!

IMO, this is the KEY to everything.

 

[chakham]

The fault with a few of ones postings as 'i' see it, lies in the fact of.. when did Christ/God become the Son & then have God/Jehovah/Father, as His Father? And sure. Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse can be stated by Them, but how about in actual fullfillment for us?

It is prophesied in Psalms 2:7 & in Acts 13:32-33 that it was a prophecy promise! And in Heb. 1:3-5 we see that it had occured in the past/tense.

Proverbs has it as a PLAN Prophesied from Eternity by the Godhead. Ibid 31 even has it seen in for/knowledge when Christ was.. 'as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing ... rejoicing in the [habitable part of the earth and my delights were with the sons of men.]'

Psalms 2
[7] I [[will declare the decree: ]] the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (OK: Prophesied!)

Acts 13

[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

And Heb. 1

[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (also note that we see two seen in heaven here!)

[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (speaking as of after the fact!)

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And, when did Christ/God [become the Son??] At His birth! Matt. 1:23

--Elijah

Am I that one? If I am, you are the first person here to give a repsonse without calling me a liar, a devil, a hypocrite or a jew, or giving me a warning for writing whats on my mind.

I once considered myself a christian. I came here with the intention of speaking my mind and maybe just maybe someone could tell me something I might have missed.

When I was busy working for a living. I went to church and was told what to believe by the masters of divinity, I swallowed just about everything they said I needed to believe to be saved, I didnt have the time to check. But much has changed for me, I have no job now barely making ends meet I am what the 'state' would describe as living in poverty. But on the brightside I had a lot of time on my hands. What did I do with that? I read the bible from Bere****e all the way to the end at Divre Hayyamim. I know the name of our God now, I know there are none beside him and that He alone is, as He said, our Saviour. Who am I to argue Gods own words? It was by His strong hand that brought me out of Egypt.

When I read the scriptures (Tanakh) I found no evidence God was to take the form of a man to save his people. In fact I found just the opposite he was and has always been quite capable of grace and mercy throughout the ages right from where He is at. After the flood GRACE when He said He wouldnt do this again no matter how evil men thoughts were. GRACE when he brought us out of Egypt. GRACE even after David murdered and committed adultry He still called him his beloved. The records of Gods grace in Tanakh is abundant. He is a good and just Father, yes ladies and gents I just called him my Father. However I am ashamed to say I havent been a very good sonnand have a healthy fear of punishment because of my sin.

Something else changed for me too my believe in who Jesus or Yeshua is. I was told in church he was conceived by an interaction between flesh and Yehovah. That I had to believe this to be saved or else I was heading to hell. Yet when I read the letters I find that Yeshua grew in wisdom and knowledge. Were these preachers telling me God has room for improvement? This leads me to think Yeshua was a child born according to the flesh and perfected rather than perfect. Even the ONLY two books in the entire new testement which some use as proof for his divinity are at best ambigous especially when compred against others

But he said I and my Father are one! Yep and so are I and my wife but I didnt come from her and she didnt come from me. However we are, or atleast try to be, one in thought, motive, and deed. The same goes for Yeshua and what he did. When we see Yeshua a man we should still be able to see the Father as they are one in thought motive and in deed.

I also found when he was in the Garden of Gethsemanee that he was afraid of what was before him. He actually asked God to take the cup away. Why would God ask Himself to do that? Read it carefully and you will see two distinct wills involved. One a man afraid "take this cup from me" "not my will" the other Yehovah "but thy will be done". He submitted his will to that of his Father in heaven as we all should if we are to considered his son or subjects in His Kingdom.

The other problem I have is if Yeshua is God why would He give Himself an inheritence? He already has owns it!

Elijah674, I do believe Yeshua is a son of Yehovah. Though not literally because of some interaction between flesh and a diety. In fact, the coming Messiah it is written is supposed to be of the linage and seed of David. If he was concieved by a god then that in of it self would break that line and should be a red flag. Either a. He is not who he says he is or b. the 'story' of his birth has been falsified or altered to fit another purpose. Because even todays science backs up scripture that ones linage cannot be determined by the mother alone. Additionally I read Elizabeth was of from the line a Aarron not David.

It was because Yeshua was someone who was Torah observant and honored and glorified the Father the Father considered him His son.

Debating his diety and being told I must believe this to be saved or go to hell is not right. Let me offer another opinion. In order to be saved simply listen to what Yeshua preached, did he come for the guilty or the blameless? What is the definition of guilty? I found something interesting in the book of Luke ... a certain priest, named Zacharias, of the course of Abia, and his wife was of the daughters of Aarron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking, in all the commandments and ordinances of Yehovah, blameless.

He was sent for the sick and guilty to warn them to repent and turn back to Yehovahs and His ways. THAT is what I believe saves you from eternal punishment. Rebellion and seeking our own ways and traditions do not.

I have to find you my copy of the Hebrew manuscript of the book of Mattityahu. It is quite an eye opener to read especially when it comes to Yeshuas speaking about th seat of Mose and Torah. Soon as I find it Ill post it here.

 

[DPMartin]

Elijah

Explain why this was written, then maybe you will get it.


Luke:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 

[Elijah674]

2 John (is only one of many books that he was Inspired to pen. Nothing personal meant by me here, yet, this is a pennman who had been around from Christ's day to now! He wrote all about Christ & His WORDS. Surely in Rev. 14:6 he has an True understanding of what Eternal Gospel is! Take note of how he says this below...

[2] For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
[3] Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (at this time/frame)

[4] I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a [[commandment from the Father]].

[5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but [[that which we had from the beginning]], that we love one another.

[6] And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
[8] Look to yourselves, that [[we lose not those things which we have wrought]], but that we receive a full reward.

[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in [[the doctrine of Christ]], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

If 'i' could not believe John's 'testimony' of both God Jehova + God Christ, & then to become the Son in 'Their PLAN' + John's REPEATED over & over again of Christ's WORD of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as an individual [[HE]], 'i' would start all over again in Gen. 1 on!:yes

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah

Explain why this was written, then maybe you will get it.


Luke:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Is that question for just some more 'doubts' to be created?? (or is there a legit point????)

--Elijah

 

[Pizzaguy]

Is that question for just some more 'doubts' to be created?? (or is there a legit point????)

--Elijah

I think he's confused about what Luke 3:38 says, I didn't understand the reference, either.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Luke:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

You go first!

So, are you going to tell us what YOU mean here? What does Adam have to do with who Jesus is?

What did you post this for?

 

[DPMartin]

You go first!

It's not my thread but sure.

So, are you going to tell us what YOU mean here? What does Adam have to do with who Jesus is?

What did God make the man to be?
Luke:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
　
What is it that the Lord Jesus Christ the Word of God in the flesh (the Son of man) restore man to? Wasn’t He crucified for being the Son of God, and did not deny Himself? And consider what He restored man to:

Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
　
What is the end result of the work of God in man?
Rev:21:7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

It’s about relationship with, and to the Creator and Judge.

1Jn:1:3: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

What Adam had, what Jesus Christ restored, and what shall be fulfilled that is given in God’s Grace and Truth until He is done. If you don’t understand; "why man?" You will never understand "Son of God".

What did you post this for?

Maybe the poster will look into it, and reexamine what he is saying and or believing. Preconceived notions of doctrines and "isms" blind more people that are looking at the text in the Bible more then anything, as I understand it. The only system of belief that is necessary is the Torah, because the Lord gave it, (if for no other reason) and the only Way it is fulfilled to the Creator and Judge’s satisfaction is in Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Elijah674]

Am I that one? If I am, you are the first person here to give a repsonse without calling me a liar, a devil, a hypocrite or a jew, or giving me a warning for writing whats on my mind.

I once considered myself a christian. I came here with the intention of speaking my mind and maybe just maybe someone could tell me something I might have missed.

When I was busy working for a living. I went to church and was told what to believe by the masters of divinity, I swallowed just about everything they said I needed to believe to be saved, I didnt have the time to check. But much has changed for me, I have no job now barely making ends meet I am what the 'state' would describe as living in poverty. But on the brightside I had a lot of time on my hands. What did I do with that? I read the bible from Bere****e all the way to the end at Divre Hayyamim. I know the name of our God now, I know there are none beside him and that He alone is, as He said, our Saviour. Who am I to argue Gods own words? It was by His strong hand that brought me out of Egypt.

When I read the scriptures (Tanakh) I found no evidence God was to take the form of a man to save his people. In fact I found just the opposite he was and has always been quite capable of grace and mercy throughout the ages right from where He is at. After the flood GRACE when He said He wouldnt do this again no matter how evil men thoughts were. GRACE when he brought us out of Egypt. GRACE even after David murdered and committed adultry He still called him his beloved. The records of Gods grace in Tanakh is abundant. He is a good and just Father, yes ladies and gents I just called him my Father. However I am ashamed to say I havent been a very good sonnand have a healthy fear of punishment because of my sin.

Something else changed for me too my believe in who Jesus or Yeshua is. I was told in church he was conceived by an interaction between flesh and Yehovah. That I had to believe this to be saved or else I was heading to hell. Yet when I read the letters I find that Yeshua grew in wisdom and knowledge. Were these preachers telling me God has room for improvement? This leads me to think Yeshua was a child born according to the flesh and perfected rather than perfect. Even the ONLY two books in the entire new testement which some use as proof for his divinity are at best ambigous especially when compred against others

But he said I and my Father are one! Yep and so are I and my wife but I didnt come from her and she didnt come from me. However we are, or atleast try to be, one in thought, motive, and deed. The same goes for Yeshua and what he did. When we see Yeshua a man we should still be able to see the Father as they are one in thought motive and in deed.

I also found when he was in the Garden of Gethsemanee that he was afraid of what was before him. He actually asked God to take the cup away. Why would God ask Himself to do that? Read it carefully and you will see two distinct wills involved. One a man afraid "take this cup from me" "not my will" the other Yehovah "but thy will be done". He submitted his will to that of his Father in heaven as we all should if we are to considered his son or subjects in His Kingdom.

The other problem I have is if Yeshua is God why would He give Himself an inheritence? He already has owns it!

Elijah674, I do believe Yeshua is a son of Yehovah. Though not literally because of some interaction between flesh and a diety. In fact, the coming Messiah it is written is supposed to be of the linage and seed of David. If he was concieved by a god then that in of it self would break that line and should be a red flag. Either a. He is not who he says he is or b. the 'story' of his birth has been falsified or altered to fit another purpose. Because even todays science backs up scripture that ones linage cannot be determined by the mother alone. Additionally I read Elizabeth was of from the line a Aarron not David.

It was because Yeshua was someone who was Torah observant and honored and glorified the Father the Father considered him His son.

Debating his diety and being told I must believe this to be saved or go to hell is not right. Let me offer another opinion. In order to be saved simply listen to what Yeshua preached, did he come for the guilty or the blameless? What is the definition of guilty? I found something interesting in the book of Luke ... a certain priest, named Zacharias, of the course of Abia, and his wife was of the daughters of Aarron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking, in all the commandments and ordinances of Yehovah, blameless.

He was sent for the sick and guilty to warn them to repent and turn back to Yehovahs and His ways. THAT is what I believe saves you from eternal punishment. Rebellion and seeking our own ways and traditions do not.

I have to find you my copy of the Hebrew manuscript of the book of Mattityahu. It is quite an eye opener to read especially when it comes to Yeshuas speaking about th seat of Mose and Torah. Soon as I find it Ill post it here.

Hey Kumi Ori;641764,
You are correct, what more can one be accountable for other than James 4 has it?? We read & study and then as one is Rom. 8:14 Led? this verse of James comes up!
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

That kind of leaves everyone up to his 'known' knowledge, huh? Most clergy from the Pope on up! (did you get that?;)) seem to think that they are necessary to God, yet they mostly all miss Rom. 2
[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

But NO, 'i' am no Christian liberal, but I do believe that God can get His own saved with His law IN THEIR HEART + MIND even without man's 'claimed' stuff. (total Acts 5:32's Surrender is the bottom line start)

But with your posting of Christ the Son of God?? No, for my belief, Christ came to earth to become the second Adam + Son of God, & one reason was to Magnify Their Law (GODHEAD!) and Make it honorable. Isa. 42:21 (and if one reads the forums, it surely needed to be done!)

And another reason, is that They had to prove for once and for all of Eternity (other worlds twice stated in Heb.) that Adam's sin [nor] Luciffer's rebellion in heaven were of any fault of their PERFECT LOVING FREEDOM IN Creation! Nah. 1:8-9

So in bottom/line the Godhead created a Perfect creation, yet there was maturing needed to done to become perfectly MATURE! And that is what it was & is ALL ABOUT as 'i' see it.

And as I see it, the Holy Ghost/God or the Holy Spirit/God was active in the Gen. verses from the start, & when Adam sinned he lost his earthly domain over temp. to satan. And God is a Spirit? That applies to the Holy Spirit God. I find Christ/God & Jehovah/God both in creation week talking of making man in Their image. And remember up until this time all of the recordings have angels as ministering spirits with no immage.

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

Am I that one? If I am, you are the first person here to give a repsonse without calling me a liar, a devil, a hypocrite or a jew, or giving me a warning for writing whats on my mind.

I once considered myself a christian. I came here with the intention of speaking my mind and maybe just maybe someone could tell me something I might have missed.

When I was busy working for a living. I went to church and was told what to believe by the masters of divinity, I swallowed just about everything they said I needed to believe to be saved, I didnt have the time to check. But much has changed for me, I have no job now barely making ends meet I am what the 'state' would describe as living in poverty. But on the brightside I had a lot of time on my hands. What did I do with that? I read the bible from Bere****e all the way to the end at Divre Hayyamim. I know the name of our God now, I know there are none beside him and that He alone is, as He said, our Saviour. Who am I to argue Gods own words? It was by His strong hand that brought me out of Egypt.

When I read the scriptures (Tanakh) I found no evidence God was to take the form of a man to save his people. In fact I found just the opposite he was and has always been quite capable of grace and mercy throughout the ages right from where He is at. After the flood GRACE when He said He wouldnt do this again no matter how evil men thoughts were. GRACE when he brought us out of Egypt. GRACE even after David murdered and committed adultry He still called him his beloved. The records of Gods grace in Tanakh is abundant. He is a good and just Father, yes ladies and gents I just called him my Father. However I am ashamed to say I havent been a very good sonnand have a healthy fear of punishment because of my sin.

Something else changed for me too my believe in who Jesus or Yeshua is. I was told in church he was conceived by an interaction between flesh and Yehovah. That I had to believe this to be saved or else I was heading to hell. Yet when I read the letters I find that Yeshua grew in wisdom and knowledge. Were these preachers telling me God has room for improvement? This leads me to think Yeshua was a child born according to the flesh and perfected rather than perfect. Even the ONLY two books in the entire new testement which some use as proof for his divinity are at best ambigous especially when compred against others

But he said I and my Father are one! Yep and so are I and my wife but I didnt come from her and she didnt come from me. However we are, or atleast try to be, one in thought, motive, and deed. The same goes for Yeshua and what he did. When we see Yeshua a man we should still be able to see the Father as they are one in thought motive and in deed.

I also found when he was in the Garden of Gethsemanee that he was afraid of what was before him. He actually asked God to take the cup away. Why would God ask Himself to do that? Read it carefully and you will see two distinct wills involved. One a man afraid "take this cup from me" "not my will" the other Yehovah "but thy will be done". He submitted his will to that of his Father in heaven as we all should if we are to considered his son or subjects in His Kingdom.

The other problem I have is if Yeshua is God why would He give Himself an inheritence? He already has owns it!

Elijah674, I do believe Yeshua is a son of Yehovah. Though not literally because of some interaction between flesh and a diety. In fact, the coming Messiah it is written is supposed to be of the linage and seed of David. If he was concieved by a god then that in of it self would break that line and should be a red flag. Either a. He is not who he says he is or b. the 'story' of his birth has been falsified or altered to fit another purpose. Because even todays science backs up scripture that ones linage cannot be determined by the mother alone. Additionally I read Elizabeth was of from the line a Aarron not David.

It was because Yeshua was someone who was Torah observant and honored and glorified the Father the Father considered him His son.

Debating his diety and being told I must believe this to be saved or go to hell is not right. Let me offer another opinion. In order to be saved simply listen to what Yeshua preached, did he come for the guilty or the blameless? What is the definition of guilty? I found something interesting in the book of Luke ... a certain priest, named Zacharias, of the course of Abia, and his wife was of the daughters of Aarron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking, in all the commandments and ordinances of Yehovah, blameless.

He was sent for the sick and guilty to warn them to repent and turn back to Yehovahs and His ways. THAT is what I believe saves you from eternal punishment. Rebellion and seeking our own ways and traditions do not.

I have to find you my copy of the Hebrew manuscript of the book of Mattityahu. It is quite an eye opener to read especially when it comes to Yeshuas speaking about th seat of Mose and Torah. Soon as I find it Ill post it here.

well abraham was told that the LORD was his inheritance in beersherit. when i got the jewish commentary on this which i do have in person and nachimides mention it. i will post. so which is it? the land or the God who created the land and all that is the inheritence of abraham?

 

[D4Christ]

And, when did Christ/God [become the Son??] At His birth! Matt. 1:23
--Elijah

Matthew 1

23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child!
She will give birth to a son,
and they will call him Immanuel,
which means ‘God is with us.’
If Christ only became the Son at his birth, then how was he, according to scriptures, the Son thru whom God created the universe?

Heb 1

2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.

10 He also says to the Son,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.

How can the Son of God be present in the beginning (Gen 1) and yet only become the Son at his human birth?
And why do scriptures state that the "mystery" of God is a plan that was hidden and made for our glory before the world began (that mystery being Christ revealed in a human body). Christ himself confirms that he was with God before the world began.

John 17

3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

"Through the Son he created".....seems pretty clear to me. If the Son of God was not God's Son before creation/beginning, then this statement is false.


Should we ignore/deny these verses, which clearly identify that the Son of God was referred to as Son before the world was created and before he was sent to earth to take on human form?

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Bob Carabbio]

John gives the answer, of course. The WORD - who was WITH God, and WAS God became flesh, and dwelled among us. So Obviously Jesus, God's SON came into existence with His conception, whereas the Word (who became flesh) was eternal.

Simple as that.

And, of course, while there are any number of "Theories" about Jesus' nature, and composition - it will simply continue to be an "Unknowable" - just like the "Godhead" Himself.

 

[FrMattCH]

Genesis 1:26
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
26*And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

To "Our image" Jesus was there in the beginning - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Elijah674]

Matthew 1


Heb 1



How can the Son of God be present in the beginning (Gen 1) and yet only become the Son at his human birth?
And why do scriptures state that the "mystery" of God is a plan that was hidden and made for our glory before the world began (that mystery being Christ revealed in a human body). Christ himself confirms that he was with God before the world began.

John 17


"Through the Son he created".....seems pretty clear to me. If the Son of God was not God's Son before creation/beginning, then this statement is false.


Should we ignore/deny these verses, which clearly identify that the Son of God was referred to as Son before the world was created and before he was sent to earth to take on human form?

Blessings,
Dee

All GOOD points! The Word of God in many places from beginning call things that are to be in the future in the present. And They can do that because the Godhead know the END in all of Eternity. Let see just the last part of Rom. 4:17 for how they work at times.
'... before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were'.

And in this way Christ the Son of God was the [PLAN OF ETERNITY]. Prov. 8 is also documented proof to this fact as Known in Their PLAN. These verses find the Christ God of the O.T. still in BC 1000. Even before the given verses in the other post of Psalms 1:2 & Heb. 1:5 + Acts 13:33

Anyway note these verses of the Future Prophecy!
Prov. 8
[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (the PLAN)
[23] I was set up [from everlasting,] from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (did God have a beginning? NO, The Plan was to be brought FORTH)

[24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
[25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
[26] While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
[27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: (note Rev. 14:6's first part, Eternal Gospel)

[28] When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
[29] When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
[30] Then I was by him, 'as one' brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

(Now pay particular attention to that which follows. This is the prophetic furture as seen by the Godhead for how they forknew that their PLAN would commence. Even check out Dan. 2 for the Lord's documented prophecy before it came about)

[31] [[Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.]]

[32] Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
[33] Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
[34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
[35] For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. (surely FUTURE!)
[36] But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

 

[D4Christ]

Elijah674,

I must repectful disagree with some aspects of your interpretation of Prov 8 as future prophecy. Imho verses 22 to 31 cannot be referring to a future event...afterall the world was already created at the time the author was inspired by God to write these verses.

Wisdom who is the Christ, the Son of God, is stating that he was present before the world was created (a past event) and was the architect by God's side when creation began. Wisdom explicitly states in verse 30 that he was in God's presence...impossible to do if he did not exist. This confirms what scriptures clearly state....God created the world thru his Son and the Son was present with God, his Father before creation began.

Prov 8

22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
23 I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
24 I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before the hills, I was born—
26 before he had made the earth and fields
and the first handfuls of soil.
27 I was there when he established the heavens,
when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
28 I was there when he set the clouds above,
when he established springs deep in the earth.
29 I was there when he set the limits of the seas,
so they would not spread beyond their boundaries.
And when he marked off the earth’s foundations,
30 I was the architect at his side.
I was his constant delight,
rejoicing always in his presence.
31 And how happy I was with the world he created;
how I rejoiced with the human family!

Verses 32-36 are speaking about a future event because at the time these verse were written, God the Father had not yet sent His Son into the world in human form to be a sacrifice for us. Thus no one who read these verses would have understood that Wisdom, God's Son, was the promised Messiah thru whom we can find life or if we reject him find death.

32 “And so, my children, listen to me,
for all who follow my ways are joyful.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise.
Don’t ignore it.
34 Joyful are those who listen to me,
watching for me daily at my gates,
waiting for me outside my home!
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the Lord.
36 But those who miss me injure themselves.
All who hate me love death.”

These verses are "revealed" in future NT writings;

John 5:24

“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 15:23

Anyone who hates me also hates my Father.

John 20:31

But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name.

http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20:30-31&version=NLT

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah674,

I must repectful disagree with some aspects of your interpretation of Prov 8 as future prophecy. Imho verses 22 to 31 cannot be referring to a future event...afterall the world was already created at the time the author was inspired by God to write these verses.

Wisdom who is the Christ, the Son of God, is stating that he was present before the world was created (a past event) and was the architect by God's side when creation began. Wisdom explicitly states in verse 30 that he was in God's presence...impossible to do if he did not exist. This confirms what scriptures clearly state....God created the world thru his Son and the Son was present with God, his Father before creation began.

Prov 8


Verses 32-36 are speaking about a future event because at the time these verse were written, God the Father had not yet sent His Son into the world in human form to be a sacrifice for us. Thus no one who read these verses would have understood that Wisdom, God's Son, was the promised Messiah thru whom we can find life or if we reject him find death.



These verses are "revealed" in future NT writings;

John 5:24


Romans 6:23


John 15:23


John 20:31


Blessings,
Dee

Are you dis/agreeing?? --Elijah

PS: Let me just tack this back up for 'me' to know what you are disagreeing with!

(Now pay particular attention to that which follows. This is the prophetic furture as seen by the Godhead for how they forknew that their PLAN would commence. Even check out Dan. 2 for the Lord's documented prophecy before it came about)

[31] [[Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.]]

[32] Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
[33] Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
[34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
[35] For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. (surely FUTURE!)

 

[D4Christ]

Are you dis/agreeing?? --Elijah

PS: Let me just tack this back up for 'me' to know what you are disagreeing with!

(Now pay particular attention to that which follows. This is the prophetic furture as seen by the Godhead for how they forknew that their PLAN would commence. Even check out Dan. 2 for the Lord's documented prophecy before it came about)

[31] [[Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.]]

[32] Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
[33] Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
[34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
[35] For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. (surely FUTURE!)

I think my point was that the beginning part of Prov 8 shows that Wisdom, the Son of God was the Son before creation began. The latter half of Prov 8 is speaking to future time when the gospel is presented to the earth and Christ is introduced as the path to life.

Since the point of this thread is to discuss when the Son of God originated, I have cited scriptures that show that the Son's beginning started prior to creation. Scriptures don't however, expand on how long before creation the Son had his start. Scriptures start with "In the beginning, God created..." We know that the Son was born before creation, the Son was present at creation and that God used the Son to create the world in which we live.

It would seem in error to suggest the Son only became the Son during his human birth, in light of the fact that the Father states his Son was with Him during creation.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 1 says: 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

John 3.16 tells of the sending of One Who being the Son already, was sent to be the Savior.

The Lord Jesus is God, Who is eternal.

His Sonship is eternal.

 

[Elijah674]

I think my point was that the beginning part of Prov 8 shows that Wisdom, the Son of God was the Son before creation began. The latter half of Prov 8 is speaking to future time when the gospel is presented to the earth and Christ is introduced as the path to life.

Since the point of this thread is to discuss when the Son of God originated, I have cited scriptures that show that the Son's beginning started prior to creation. Scriptures don't however, expand on how long before creation the Son had his start. Scriptures start with "In the beginning, God created..." We know that the Son was born before creation, the Son was present at creation and that God used the Son to create the world in which we live.

It would seem in error to suggest the Son only became the Son during his human birth, in light of the fact that the Father states his Son was with Him during creation.

Blessings,
Dee

You post..
'It would seem in error to suggest the Son only became the Son during his human birth, in light of the fact that the Father states his Son was with Him during creation.'

We disagree on that. I find God as Christ/God (not son) before He was Adam/God/Man/Son, & in Prophecying of their Godhead's ETERNAL PLAN before Christ became a HUMAN Second Adam, and then Son! (Again Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse)

And just the term 'Son' seems true, yet spiritually tricky, as angels are 'ministering spirits' that were created, yet we see two in conversation saying let 'US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE'. And with Only God stated as having Immortality, so it seems that these two with an Image are Immortal.

So where does an Immortal Son fit into that except by an Eternal known plan??? And US surely implies equal as the Word of God suggests. (rather states, in John 1:1--3 +!)

--Elijah