The soul of man

[eddif]

It might work out that parallels be established to the physical temple in
I Kings 8

The temple is built and then dedicated to service. As the temple of the Holy Spirit, what is our structure and service?

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

It might work out that parallels be established to the physical temple in
I Kings 8

The temple is built and then dedicated to service. As the temple of the Holy Spirit, what is our structure and service?

eddif

Hi eddif,
Genesis does seem to be very clear to me.

Genesis 2:7
"Then God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."

If man became a living being AFTER God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, it means man was not alive before.

As to the temple, same thing.
It could have been just an empty building.
But the service to God and the worship and the prayers were its breath of life
and it became "alive" to service to God.

My two cents re the temple...

 

[OzSpen]

I don't think we an study something we can't see, touch or feel except in our own being. For example what nourishes Spirit?

Randy,

I don't understand what you are driving at here. Many scientists have studied something they cannot see and touch. I'm speaking of gravity.

Jesus told doubting Thomas: 'Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"' (John 20:29 NIV).

Theologians, preachers and Bible teachers have studied God whom they cannot see. 'Because of his faith, Moses left Egypt. It wasn’t because he was afraid of the king’s anger. He didn’t let anything stop him. That’s because he saw the God who can’t be seen' (Heb 11:27 NIRV).

Oz

 

[chessman]

God FORMED man.
He was not a living being UNTIL God breathed life into him.

That’s correct, God breathed the breath of life into “him”. Then HE became a living being (or living soul). Not sure why you’d say “No man. No soul” then. Because it’s quite clear there was a man before a man’s soul.

Which was the very point I have been making using the Text of Gen 2:7 starting in post #462. I can’t help the fact that Gen 2:7 conflicts with people’s opinions who think the soul pre-exists the man. But what Gen 2:7 says, so clearly, conflicts with the idea that the first soul, pre-existed the first man.

The first man was formed after the dust was created, from the dust previously created by God.
The first living soul was formed after the first man was created, from the first man whom God previously created.

Just as clearly as the Garden pre-existed Adam who was then placed into that Garden (by God) and just as clearly as dust pre-existed the man being formed from the dust (by God), the man pre-existed the breath of life being breathed into the man (by God). Simple, really.

Man had a FORM, just like the earth did, but was he a live human being or just a form?

He was a man, per the Text, and then that man became a living being (or living soul per the KJV). That’s my point.

No need to read.

Okay, but it’s often very helpful and enlightening to read what the Text actually says about the answers to various questions with your opinions open to reproof from what the Text actually does say.

Something that has the FORM of a man, is not necessarily a man.

Again, the Text in Gen 2:7 quite literally says a man (to include his nostrils) is literally what God breathed the breath of life into. Sorry, but it’s true. I see no reason to think man was not necessarily exactly what God breathed His breath into.

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ...​

Genesis 2:7a - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=NASB

It did NOT occur in any other order.
Dust to man to living soul, is the Biblical Genesis.

Does Paul have a soul when he dies and goes to be with his Lord?

Yes, Paul has a soul even though his body has died.

Have you ever been to the wax museum in NY or London?

No. But I’ve been to a wax museum.

What’s impossible to believe, however, is that I have been inside a wax museum before that wax museum was actually created. Just like it’s impossible to believe God breathed the breath of life into a man, before man was actually created. Luckily, I don’t have to believe in such.

No Soul.
No man.

God breathed the breath of life into the man, per Gen 2:7. Sorry you feel like a man couldn’t exist before a soul exists. But I do not agree per the Genesis.

 

[GodsGrace]

That’s correct, God breathed the breath of life into “him”. Then HE became a living being (or living soul). Not sure why you’d say “No man. No soul” then. Because it’s quite clear there was a man before a man’s soul.

Which was the very point I have been making using the Text of Gen 2:7 starting in post #462. I can’t help the fact that Gen 2:7 conflicts with people’s opinions who think the soul pre-exists the man. But what Gen 2:7 says, so clearly, conflicts with the idea that the first soul, pre-existed the first man.

The first man was formed after the dust was created, from the dust previously created by God.
The first living soul was formed after the first man was created, from the first man whom God previously created.

Just as clearly as the Garden pre-existed Adam who was then placed into that Garden (by God) and just as clearly as dust pre-existed the man being formed from the dust (by God), the man pre-existed the breath of life being breathed into the man (by God). Simple, really.


He was a man, per the Text, and then that man became a living being (or living soul per the KJV). That’s my point.


Okay, but it’s often very helpful and enlightening to read what the Text actually says about the answers to various questions with your opinions open to reproof from what the Text actually does say.


Again, the Text in Gen 2:7 quite literally says a man (to include his nostrils) is literally what God breathed the breath of life into. Sorry, but it’s true. I see no reason to think man was not necessarily exactly what God breathed His breath into.

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ...​

Genesis 2:7a - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=NASB

It did NOT occur in any other order.
Dust to man to living soul, is the Biblical Genesis.


Yes, Paul has a soul even though his body has died.


No. But I’ve been to a wax museum.

What’s impossible to believe, however, is that I have been inside a wax museum before that wax museum was actually created. Just like it’s impossible to believe God breathed the breath of life into a man, before man was actually created. Luckily, I don’t have to believe in such.


God breathed the breath of life into the man, per Gen 2:7. Sorry you feel like a man couldn’t exist before a soul exists. But I do not agree per the Genesis.

What are you saying about a soul existing first??
I'm not saying that and I didn't understand this from your post to which I was replying.

First a man is created...then he gets his soul.
But what I was referring to is that he is not a complete human person without a soul.
A baby has a soul when he's born.
God formed the man and then breathed life into him and that's when he became a complete person.
This is what I meant by...
No soul
No man

Did I misunderstand your post?
Do you agree with the above?

 

[jaybird]

Please provide biblical evidence to support your claims.

it wasnt a claim, it was more os a common sense question. something a seeker would ask.
there is no scripture with a full explanation. if there was we wouldnt be talking about it and the subject wouldnt be contro. you have the conversation between the Father and Job, "where were you when the world was created" . . .some believe this is suggestive of pre existence.

 

[jasonc]

list the Hebrew words for soul. yall is arguing over the word nephesh Chaya. that is part of the soul but not all of it. other words are used in the tanach.

nephesh can also mean flesh and body.

 

[jaybird]

Which is an opinion contrary to the generations that Gen 2 describes, not to mention contrary to simple logic.

not really, according scripture man does not come into being without that "breath", the part that returns to where it came from.

Did you really just say ‘a man ... is not a man’?

no i said . .

IMO a man with no soul is not a man.

I (and logic) would say a man with no handkerchief is a man. Sure, this particular man has no handkerchief. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

I would say a man with no soul is a man. Sure, this man has no soul. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

I would say a man with no living soul is a man. Sure, this man has no living soul. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

does the Most High create man with or without a soul? unless it has all the components it is not the same as the man the Father makes.

That which God blew into the man’s nostrils after the man was formed but before he became a living soul. And notice how the Text indeed says the “man” was formed first then came the breath (he “became” a living soul, which contradicts your opinion).

it would contridict my opinion if the breath died with the physical body, which it does not, it returns to where to where it existed before.

These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven — before any plant of the field was on earth, and before any plant of the field had sprung up, because Yahweh God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no human being to cultivate the ground, but a stream would rise from the earth and water the whole face of the ground— when Yahweh God formed the man of dust from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.​

Genesis 2:4-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:4-8&version=LEB

Can you explain why the Text refers to the man’s nostrils (his nostrils) before he became a living soul, on your view?

because thats where the breath of the Most High went?

There’s an explicit progression (generations) depicting ordered- in-time creation to Gen 2:

These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven:​

For example — before any plant of the field was on earth, and before any plant of the field had sprung up, a stream would rise from the earth and water the whole face of the ground— [Water came before plants]

Then God formed the man of dust from the ground, [dust came before man]

Then God blew into his nostrils (into the Man’s nostrils) the breath of life. [Which contradicts your opinion, below , Man came before the breath, obviously]

again, the breath existed before the man was formed, before it was breathed into the man.

Simple logic and the Text precludes your opinion

and that means the breath didnt exist before and went back to non existence? not sure on that one

That’s what the word “became” means. It was man who became a living soul, not a soul who became a man, per the Text.

a phisical man and a son of the Most High IMO are not the same thng. when a believer passes to the next world do you really think they are going to be walking and talking in a flesh and blood body? you can try and spin this all you like but the simple fact remains, before we exist in this world and born into this one, breath from the Father is put into us, we die and that breath goes back.
i have built houses, trailers, fences, etc, i have never put a piece of myself into those things. thats what the Father did with us, why would He do that?

No, I was not a living soul before Jerimaiah became one. That’s the point.

none the less the Most High knew him, knew him before. the Most High ordained and sanctified him before he was born, you have to be something to be ordained and sanctified, unless you believe it was non existence that was ordained and sanctified which makes little sense at all.

 

[eddif]

Hello everyone,

If, like Calvinists and many other evangelical Christians, you happen to believe the souls of all men will live forever, could you explain to me please exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from? The reason I ask is because I am a Christian who has regularly attended an evangelical church these last 19 years… https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/

Time to discuss how this soul man comes to death.
Genesis 3:22 KJV
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Then maybe how the new man might be eternal through Jesus. The soul man is doomed in Genesis 3.

redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

In post 2 chessman turned the conversation this direction, but it has drifted back to soul man 101.

eddif

 

[Randy]

Randy,

I don't understand what you are driving at here. Many scientists have studied something they cannot see and touch. I'm speaking of gravity.

Jesus told doubting Thomas: 'Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"' (John 20:29 NIV).

Theologians, preachers and Bible teachers have studied God whom they cannot see. 'Because of his faith, Moses left Egypt. It wasn’t because he was afraid of the king’s anger. He didn’t let anything stop him. That’s because he saw the God who can’t be seen' (Heb 11:27 NIRV).

Oz

It based on faith not facts that can be measured. Gravity can be demonstrated by observation.
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
And only in your own being can feel the HS.

Can I prove we are spirit in flesh in any measurable way that the world can accept as fact? NO

And in zech 12 God states He forms are spirit within us which is show in Genesis the breath God breathed into the body formed from the dust of the earth. And in Ezekiel 37 -can these bone live

So if God were to withdraw all mankind would wither and die. Flesh may give birth to flesh but only Gods Spirit gives birth to spirit. Hence our heavenly Father.

 

[chessman]

First, there’s lots to talk about within this topic and I appreciate the interaction and stimulating thoughts. I’m learning along with everyone else what the Scriptures teach on this subject. And evidently I’m not making my Biblical points clear enough so that others can understand them (or others simply don’t want to understand them, which is fine of course).

according scripture man does not come into being without that "breath"

Again, that statement is simply and demonstrably incorrect (imprecise at best) in accordance with what Gen 2:7 literally says. (Not incorrect with my opinion but incorrect with the literal Text itself). Last time I’ll point this out, under the assumption that you, like me, allow Scripture to decide truth):

I believe God created man first, then breathed the breath of life into man and man then (and only then) became a “living being/living soul” precisely because that’s the exact order of Text:

Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.
...​

[pausing at this point to illustrate my point. Was the Earth created and called “Earth” and thus truly Earth before it had any plants and rain in it??? Yes! Was man called man before he had the “breath of life” in him??? Yes! It’s that simple.]

...
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground,
...​

[Likewise pausing here to make my point. Was the man called “man” before he received the breath of life and became a living being??? Yes!]

...
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.​

[Man became a “living being”, a soul did not become a man. Dust is what became a man.]

Genesis 2:5-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:5-7&version=NASB

Again, man bacame a living being (living soul). A soul did NOT become a man. This is my point and where we disagree. And my point has been validated via Scripture. Yours has not.

Think of a house. You build a house complete it from it’s foundation, walls, roof, plumbing/electrical, exterior trim, interior trim, etc. You even get the CO and power turned on. Is it a “house”??? Yes! Only later does it’s occupants move in and it (the house) becomes a “home”. Was a man, a man before he received the “breath of life”??? Yes, per the Text.

that "breath", the part that returns to where it came from.

Where else would God’s breath return but from where it came? This is beside the point, however.

does the Most High create man with or without a soul?

With the dust of the Earth, per the Text.
Like God created Earth without plants or rain, then adding rain and plants to the Earth, God created man from the dust then added His breath to man to created the living being (living soul).

He created man first, though, is my point.
He then added His breath of life to the man and then and only then do you get the first living being (living soul).

it would contridict my opinion if the breath died with the physical body, which it does not, it returns to where to where it existed before.

It would contradict my opinion too.

I asked; “Can you explain why the Text refers to the man’s nostrils (his nostrils) before he became a living soul, on your view?

You answered:

because thats where the breath of the Most High went?

Yes, it went into the man’s nostrils. Just like occupants go into a house to create a home. But the house is created first.

again, the breath existed before the man was formed, before it was breathed into the man.

I agree.

and that means the breath didnt exist before and went back to non existence? not sure on that one

Where have I suggested that the breath went back to non existence??? It’s God’s breath of life, not non-existence’s breath of life.

you can try and spin this all you like

I am not spinning anything.

before we exist in this world and born into this one, breath from the Father is put into us,

Before we are born, the breath of life is in us. You realize fetuses are human beings, right? Just small, less developed and located inside a womb. As for man’s ‘existence’ before this world (including the first man created from the dust of the Earth) where do you get that idea?

none the less the Most High knew him, knew him before. the Most High ordained and sanctified him before he was born, you have to be something to be ordained and sanctified, unless you believe it was non existence that was ordained and sanctified which makes little sense at all.

Does it make sense to you that Jerimaiah was known and sanctified inside his mother’s womb (here on Earth)?

 

[Randy]

you really didnt provide any. Eve is the mother of all living and Adam dies? our soul comes from Eve?


i did and posted some. cherry pick lol umm . . . ok, i prefer to read the scriptures and not read them through the man made doctrine filters.


it went back to the Father where according to you it did not exist.

​

breath/spirit/soul, i will call it that part of you that returns to the Most High. the bible is pretty clear that this part of us does not fizzle out into non existence, it says it returns to where it came from, where IMO it existed before.

The sequence given in genesis and ezekiel is the body is formed then within that body the spirit is formed that is the body is lifeless without Gods breath. Zech 12 strengthens the within formation as in "Thus says the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him" The within Him is clearly the "body" And that the part that man can't kill. God can but not man.

 

[jaybird]

Again, that statement is simply and demonstrably incorrect (imprecise at best) in accordance with what Gen 2:7 literally says. (Not incorrect with my opinion but incorrect with the literal Text itself). Last time I’ll point this out, under the assumption that you, like me, allow Scripture to decide truth):

I believe God created man first, then breathed the breath of life into man and man then (and only then) became a “living being/living soul” precisely because that’s the exact order of Text:

Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.
...​

[pausing at this point to illustrate my point. Was the Earth created and called “Earth” and thus truly Earth before it had any plants and rain in it??? Yes! Was man called man before he had the “breath of life” in him??? Yes! It’s that simple.]

...
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground,
...​

[Likewise pausing here to make my point. Was the man called “man” before he received the breath of life and became a living being??? Yes!]

...
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.​

[Man became a “living being”, a soul did not become a man. Dust is what became a man.]

Genesis 2:5-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:5-7&version=NASB

Again, man bacame a living being (living soul). A soul did NOT become a man. This is my point and where we disagree. And my point has been validated via Scripture. Yours has not.

i will be happy to agree to disagree. but i couldnt disagree more on this one, i am way over on the other side of the spectrum from your idea. our soul/spirit/breath, IMO is who we really are, our true self, these physical bodies are temporary.

Think of a house. You build a house complete it from it’s foundation, walls, roof, plumbing/electrical, exterior trim, interior trim, etc. You even get the CO and power turned on. Is it a “house”??? Yes! Only later does it’s occupants move in and it (the house) becomes a “home”. Was a man, a man before he received the “breath of life”??? Yes, per the Text

.
i have built a house before, i have never put a piece of myself into the house, that piece of myself lives on in the home until the home is no more, that piece of myself returns to me. thats the difference.

Where else would God’s breath return but from where it came? This is beside the point, however.

from where i am, it is the point.

With the dust of the Earth, per the Text.
Like God created Earth without plants or rain, then adding rain and plants to the Earth, God created man from the dust then added His breath to man to created the living being (living soul).

He created man first, though, is my point.
He then added His breath of life to the man and then and only then do you get the first living being (living soul).

but you know the creation process did not complete with the formation of the dust, it completed with the breath.

It would contradict my opinion too.
I asked; “Can you explain why the Text refers to the man’s nostrils (his nostrils) before he became a living soul, on your view?
You answered:
Yes, it went into the man’s nostrils. Just like occupants go into a house to create a home. But the house is created first.

man would be just as lifeless as that house without that breath, something the house does not have

Before we are born, the breath of life is in us. You realize fetuses are human beings, right? Just small, less developed and located inside a womb. As for man’s ‘existence’ before this world (including the first man created from the dust of the Earth) where do you get that idea?

Jesus said he existed before. He didnt say He was the only one.

Does it make sense to you that Jerimaiah was known and sanctified inside his mother’s womb (here on Earth)?

it happened before he was formed in the womb. no it doesnt make sense to me, if it all made sense i wouldnt be seeking what it meant.

 

[jaybird]

The sequence given in genesis and ezekiel is the body is formed then within that body the spirit is formed that is the body is lifeless without Gods breath. Zech 12 strengthens the within formation as in "Thus says the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him" The within Him is clearly the "body" And that the part that man can't kill. God can but not man.

the spirit/soul/breath IMO are not of this world but of the heavens. without it we could never connect to the Most High.

 

[th1b.taylor]

not really, according scripture man does not come into being without that "breath", the part that returns to where it came from.



no i said . .


does the Most High create man with or without a soul? unless it has all the components it is not the same as the man the Father makes.



it would contridict my opinion if the breath died with the physical body, which it does not, it returns to where to where it existed before.


because thats where the breath of the Most High went?


again, the breath existed before the man was formed, before it was breathed into the man.



and that means the breath didnt exist before and went back to non existence? not sure on that one



a phisical man and a son of the Most High IMO are not the same thng. when a believer passes to the next world do you really think they are going to be walking and talking in a flesh and blood body? you can try and spin this all you like but the simple fact remains, before we exist in this world and born into this one, breath from the Father is put into us, we die and that breath goes back.
i have built houses, trailers, fences, etc, i have never put a piece of myself into those things. thats what the Father did with us, why would He do that?



none the less the Most High knew him, knew him before. the Most High ordained and sanctified him before he was born, you have to be something to be ordained and sanctified, unless you believe it was non existence that was ordained and sanctified which makes little sense at all.

I have killed men and I ha

not really, according scripture man does not come into being without that "breath", the part that returns to where it came from.



no i said . .


does the Most High create man with or without a soul? unless it has all the components it is not the same as the man the Father makes.



it would contridict my opinion if the breath died with the physical body, which it does not, it returns to where to where it existed before.


because thats where the breath of the Most High went?


again, the breath existed before the man was formed, before it was breathed into the man.



and that means the breath didnt exist before and went back to non existence? not sure on that one



a phisical man and a son of the Most High IMO are not the same thng. when a believer passes to the next world do you really think they are going to be walking and talking in a flesh and blood body? you can try and spin this all you like but the simple fact remains, before we exist in this world and born into this one, breath from the Father is put into us, we die and that breath goes back.
i have built houses, trailers, fences, etc, i have never put a piece of myself into those things. thats what the Father did with us, why would He do that?



none the less the Most High knew him, knew him before. the Most High ordained and sanctified him before he was born, you have to be something to be ordained and sanctified, unless you believe it was non existence that was ordained and sanctified which makes little sense at all.

This discussion ha gone overboard, big time! How long did it take God to create the Earth? It took Him six, twenty-four hour days to create the Second Heaven, with all those stars and tdayshe hoard of planets surrounding them. Add to that He created every living thing and it took, only, six twenty-four days, we serve a perfect God and we must learn

 

[OzSpen]

It based on faith not facts that can be measured.

So, is your faith not founded on the facts of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection?



Oz

 

[OzSpen]

How long did it take God to create the Earth? It took Him six, twenty-four hour days to create the Second Heaven, with all those stars and tdayshe hoard of planets surrounding them. Add to that He created every living thing and it took, only, six twenty-four days, we serve a perfect God and we must learn

Bill,

How long is the Hebrew word for day, yom, in Gen 1:5?

How long is yom in Gen 2:2?

What about Gen 2:4? How long is yom according to this verse?

Oz

 

[th1b.taylor]

Bill,

How long is the Hebrew word for day, yom, in Gen 1:5?

How long is yom in Gen 2:2?

What about Gen 2:4? How long is yom according to this verse?

Oz

it is from dawn to dawn. We know an incredible amount more today but to impress it upon the texts of thousands of years ago is, just, not intelligent. And God had His word recorded in a very simple manor that any could read it, if they put the effort in.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Bill,

How long is the Hebrew word for day, yom, in Gen 1:5?

How long is yom in Gen 2:2?

What about Gen 2:4? How long is yom according to this verse?

Oz

And if you are about attempt to turn this to (Edited by staff) favored vent of frustration and lack of the looked for faith, fuuuh get it. I am not up for mental exercises in intelligent stupidity.