THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

[Paul Timothy]

I stated that this command in Genesis 1:28 is a command God gave to Christ, who was 'created' a little lower than the angels but crowned with glory and honour.
God spoke this command to Adam, but Christ was in his loins.
Is there anyone else whom God crowned with glory and honour besides Christ?

So you are calling Christ a trans individual now?

Whom else has God crowned... Let's try a short list.

1. Over-comers of the church of Smyrna. Rev 2:10
2. Church of Philadelphia. Rev 3:1116:12
3. Shepherds of the flock(teachers/pastors). 1 Peter 5:4
4. The man who endures temptation. James 1:12
5. Paul and those who love His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8
6. Those that run the race. 1 Cor 9:25
7. Jerusalem. Ezek 16:12

A crown is glory and honour.

 

[Highway54]

Does God have total Sovereignty over His creation?

Or does His creation do whatever they want?

Interesting you mention that Jeremiah. The entire Bible is about the right to Sovereignty. God gave free will as we have been discussing, however within boundaries. God's right to rule (Sovereignty) was challenged by satan, and Adam as well Gen 3:5. All humans are involved in this issue Job 2:4 so God is allowing us and satan to be our own gods until we realize that we need Him. Mat 24:22 shows that we have to go to the point of extinction before we really come to that knowledge, and God will step in at that time by sending His forces and put a stop to this madness.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God gave free will as we have been discussing, however within boundaries.

Define "free will" and find a verse saying God gave Free Will to man.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Define "free will" and find a verse saying God gave Free Will to man.

Ability to choose.

Phil 1:22
Josh 24:15
Exod 17:9
Deut 30:19
2Sam 24:12
1King 18:23
1Chr 21:10-11
Prov 1:29
Prov 3:31

And many more.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ability to choose.

Phil 1:22
Josh 24:15
Exod 17:9
Deut 30:19
2Sam 24:12
1King 18:23
1Chr 21:10-11
Prov 1:29
Prov 3:31

So what? We all freely chose according to our greatest desire. God controls our desire and therefore controls what we freely choose. God gets whatever He wants and we get what we want, but our wants are controlled by God.

• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
• Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
• Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens: he has done whatsoever he has pleased,".
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own … puppets]
  • Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?
  • Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
  • Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out). [puppets. It is God’s purpose that decides our fate]
  • Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? [puppets … our steps are directed by God and not ourselves. We therefore cannot autonomously believe God]

 

[Paul Timothy]

So what? We all freely chose according to our greatest desire. God controls our desire and therefore controls what we freely choose. God gets whatever He wants and we get what we want, but our wants are controlled by God.

• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
• Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
• Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens: he has done whatsoever he has pleased,".
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own … puppets]
  • Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?
  • Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
  • Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out). [puppets. It is God’s purpose that decides our fate]
  • Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? [puppets … our steps are directed by God and not ourselves. We therefore cannot autonomously believe God]

You asked for a definition of free will which I provided.
You asked for references that indicate that God gave man free will which I provided.

Now you say... "So what".
So your question was insincere at best or outright deception at worst.

You are not being honest with your questions.
Please do better in the future.

 

[Paul Timothy]

So what? We all freely chose according to our greatest desire. God controls our desire and therefore controls what we freely choose. God gets whatever He wants and we get what we want, but our wants are controlled by God.

• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
• Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
• Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens: he has done whatsoever he has pleased,".
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own … puppets]
  • Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?
  • Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
  • Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out). [puppets. It is God’s purpose that decides our fate]
  • Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? [puppets … our steps are directed by God and not ourselves. We therefore cannot autonomously believe God]

So God controls my wants...
I want to sin... so according to you... God wants me to sin.
How does that work?
Is God's highest desire for me to sin and go to Hell?
Then why did God bother with Jesus in the first place?

 

[Fastfredy0]

You asked for a definition of free will which I provided.
You asked for references that indicate that God gave man free will which I provided.

Oh... my bad.
You're definition of free will is incomplete. You forgot to define the FREE part of it.

Since you didn't define the term comprehensively, your verses may or may not apply.
Now, I agree that your verses show we "HAVE A CHOICE" ... but none of them show the CHOICE is FREE .... but, as I said you did not define FREE ... so your answer is incomplete.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So God controls my wants...

Yes .. who do you think controls your desires? You can choose your own desires, that the fallacy of circular logic.

I want to sin... so according to you... God wants me to sin.

Your premises lead to the conclusion that God doesn't get what He wants. The rolling out of history is the observation of God's plan. If God doesn't want you to sin then He wouldn't give you a sin nature. When you go to heaven God takes away your sin nature. The logic is simple enough. You can't pick your desires; God does.

• Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?
• Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
• Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out). [puppets. It is God’s purpose that decides our fate]
• Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? [puppets … our steps are directed by God and not ourselves. We therefore cannot autonomously believe God]

Is God's highest desire for me to sin and go to Hell?

No, you give man way to much credit. God's greatest desire is His glory and pleasure. Man is merely a creature created from dust.

Then why did God bother with Jesus in the first place?

Same as previous answer... for God's glory and pleasure. Man has no effect upon God: Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Does God have total Sovereignty over His creation?

Or does His creation do whatever they want?

Why is that an either/or?

Does Putin have sovereignty over Russia or can ordinary Russians eat whatever is in their cupboard?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Oh... my bad.
You're definition of free will is incomplete. You forgot to define the FREE part of it.

Since you didn't define the term comprehensively, your verses may or may not apply.
Now, I agree that your verses show we "HAVE A CHOICE" ... but none of them show the CHOICE is FREE .... but, as I said you did not define FREE ... so your answer is incomplete.

I define "free will" as choice.
You are the one who decided to break my definition up into a two parter.
I defined a phrase as a single word.
You are moving the goalposts in an attempt to deflect.
Just be honest.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You asked for a definition of free will which I provided.
You asked for references that indicate that God gave man free will which I provided.

Now you say... "So what".
So your question was insincere at best or outright deception at worst.

You are not being honest with your questions.
Please do better in the future.

Fred asks everyone for a definition of free will and they have so far complied. He still doesn’t acknowledge any definition.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Yes .. who do you think controls your desires? You can choose your own desires, that the fallacy of circular logic.

And so you say God directs our hearts to desire sin.

Your premises lead to the conclusion that God doesn't get what He wants. The rolling out of history is the observation of God's plan. If God doesn't want you to sin then He wouldn't give you a sin nature. When you go to heaven God takes away your sin nature. The logic is simple enough. You can't pick your desires; God does.

• Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?
• Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
• Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out). [puppets. It is God’s purpose that decides our fate]
• Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? [puppets … our steps are directed by God and not ourselves. We therefore cannot autonomously believe God]

Here I see you are getting directed and controlled mixed up.
Can God direct in one direction and can man not go another? Why not?
Are you just avoiding responsibility for your own life decisions?
"If I sin it was God and if I am righteous it is God. I am not responsible. Only God can control my actions."

No, you give man way to much credit. God's greatest desire is His glory and pleasure. Man is merely a creature created from dust.

So it was Gods pleasure to kill Jesus even though it was not needed?
You have a very sadistic view of God.

Same as previous answer... for God's glory and pleasure. Man has no effect upon God: Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

Your Job quote is from one of the people that God said was wrong. (or am I mistaken)
So you are supporting your position by quoting someone that God said was wrong.

I would have to say I disagree with your simplistic view of a puppet master god.
My view is of a sovereign God and a free man.
My view is more messy... but that reflects life more accurately.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I define "free will" as choice.

OK.... well, that is an open definition.
Everyone on the planet agrees that man has a choice. Usually, people put the word FREE in front of WILL as an adjective to refine the meaning of WILL.
I say God determines your choices and many people say God does not determine your choices and you simply say it's a choice. Everyone agrees to that.

You are the one who decided to break my definition up into a two parter.

Well, almost everyone does. If a definition lacks specifics it makes communication difficult. Now I know your definition I can understand the message you are trying to convey. Basically, you say people have a choice and you don't clarify who determines how you will choose.

I defined a phrase as a single word.
You are moving the goalposts in an attempt to deflect.
Just be honest.

I just trying to understand you. You're definition is a non-standard IMO. You're simply saying people have a "will". Everyone agrees to that.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Here I see you are getting directed and controlled mixed up.
Can God direct in one direction and can man not go another? Why not?

God is more powerful. God get His way. The superior directs the inferior. Man cannot determine his desires; he is preprogrammed (see sin nature).
But, your definition of Free Will is ability to decide. I agree, man can decide and who determines ones decision is off the table using your definition.

"If I sin it was God and if I am righteous it is God. I am not responsible. Only God can control my actions."

We are using your definition Free Will. All decisions are because you choose. Who determines the choice is irrelevant.

So it was Gods pleasure to kill Jesus even though it was not needed?

You misunderstood me.

 

[Paul Timothy]

OK.... well, that is an open definition.
Everyone on the planet agrees that man has a choice. Usually, people put the word FREE in front of WILL as an adjective to refine the meaning of WILL.
I say God determines your choices and many people say God does not determine your choices and you simply say it's a choice. Everyone agrees to that.



Well, almost everyone does. If a definition lacks specifics it makes communication difficult. Now I know your definition I can understand the message you are trying to convey. Basically, you say people have a choice and you don't clarify who determines how you will choose.



I just trying to understand you. You're definition is a non-standard IMO. You're simply saying people have a "will". Everyone agrees to that.

Will is the capacity to make conscious, non-autonomic decisions. Free will is the capacity to make decisions that are not purely deterministic, given past input, nor purely random/spontaneous. - Google.

So you are the one limiting the definition.
Will can be described as the desire to act.
Free will can be described as the desire to act that is free from outside influence.
You are the one using a malformed definition here.

 

[Paul Timothy]

God is more powerful. God get His way. The superior directs the inferior. Man cannot determine his desires; he is preprogrammed (see sin nature).
But, your definition of Free Will is ability to decide. I agree, man can decide and who determines ones decision is off the table using your definition.

What does off the table mean in this context?
You use the word pre-programmed also in a non-Biblical way.
You presume programming.

We are using your definition Free Will. All decisions are because you choose. Who determines the choice is irrelevant.

You have expanded my definition beyond it's range.
BTW decision is synonymous with choice.
So if "who determines the choice is irrelevant" then I can blame God for my sins and I have no need to repent.
That is your position?

You misunderstood me.

And you don't explain yourself.
If you don't explain yourself I am free to put words into your mouth.
Free will in action, I'm afraid.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes... in the original command of God.
You just posted a verse that says man was given dominion and then question your own reference.

This would indicate that you do not believe God when He says something.

Your question sounds like the Serpent's question... "did God really say...".

It's the same as when God said, "Let us make man in our image..."
The image of God is Christ. There is no better image of a Father than a Son.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn 5:39.

It's all about Christ. Everything.

 

[Paul Timothy]

It's the same as when God said, "Let us make man in our image..."
The image of God is Christ. There is no better image of a Father than a Son.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn 5:39.

It's all about Christ. Everything.

I disagree.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So you are calling Christ a trans individual now?

Whom else has God crowned... Let's try a short list.

1. Over-comers of the church of Smyrna. Rev 2:10
2. Church of Philadelphia. Rev 3:1116:12
3. Shepherds of the flock(teachers/pastors). 1 Peter 5:4
4. The man who endures temptation. James 1:12
5. Paul and those who love His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8
6. Those that run the race. 1 Cor 9:25
7. Jerusalem. Ezek 16:12

A crown is glory and honour.

Very good.
But there is only ONE King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
We throw all our crowns at HIS FEET.
It's all about Christ:

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn 5:39.

Me, me, me.
Him, Him, Him!