the Spirit, the Water, the Blood

[reba]

No member here is forced to read or post in any forum or thread... We are a varied group of Christians, our thoughts, ideals , beliefs are going to differ. The Word of God is written in such a manner it invites discussion and debate it is alive. Who is going to find a site where every thing written is to their liking?

Can we not enjoy our differences learn from each other. Say our piece within the guidelines of TOS . Not one moderator here likes cutting into posts, making edits or deletions...

This little segment of the TOS has a lot of teaching in it... I added a bit of pink
2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Watch your mouth like Grandma used to say if you dont have something nice to say shut up.
Address issues not personalities. Lets not make the post about each other but about Him and His Word.
Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. We are not all in the same place in the Lord. Ask yourself, are you the same Christian you were 5-10 -20 30- years ago?
Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Not all topics are for all members, if a topic is not to your liking find another or open a new thread...

 

[reba]

GreggMember
Christian:
Yes
Back to the thread . . .

"And there are three who bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one." (1John 5:8 LITV)

What is this verse referring to?
1) It refers to Jesus the Son of God as Immanuel, coming from heaven to secure our redemption at the cross.
2) It refers to Jesus' coming after the Resurrection, having made atonement for us, having prepared for us the way to the Father
What is the water and the blood?
1) water: the testimony of God, the express will of God, the truth
that which Jesus came through [dia] and came in [en].
2) blood: the testimony of Jesus' righteousness, the life
that which Jesus came through [dia] and came in [en].
What is the context of this verse?
summarily - "Who is the one overcoming the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? . . . The one believing in the Son of God has the witness in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning His Son.
(1Jn 5:5, 10 LITVP).

Does 1 John 5:8 refer to the Trinity?
Yes; the Holy Spirit of God, God the Father, and Jesus the Son of God.
- - -

Way, Truth, Life

Jesus is the only Way to the Father, the Truth having explained and demonstrated the will of God, and the source of eternal Life having procured our redemption and atonement through His blood. "Thomas said to Him, 'Lord, we do not know where You go, and how can we know the way?' Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you do know Him, and have seen Him' " (John 14:5-7 LITV).

After Jesus the Son of God made atonement for us to the Father (in heaven Heb 9:11, 14-15), He left the heavenly Temple and was resurrected in His body. On His way to the Resurrection from being in the presence of His Father in heaven, Jesus passed through the veil [His flesh (Heb 10:20), Jesus the Way] exiting the Temple, past the bronze laver of water [Jesus the Truth], and past the bronze altar of sacrifice [Jesus the Life] as He made His way out of the courtyard, towards the place of His burial so that we might witness His Resurrection.

Jn 14:6 is a picture of Jesus coming here from the Father between His death on the cross and His Resurrection.

 

[JLB]

edited

 

[MarkT]

Have you ever witnessed a woman's water break?

It is not bloody.

A woman whose water and hymen break is bloody.


Therefore I conclude you don't know what you are posting about.



JLB

Read the whole letter. No mention of Mary or her water or her blood anywhere.

 

[Gregg]

Have you ever seen a natural birth? It is indeed bloody.
(Edited, Obadiah)

By_Grace and JBL,

Please make your posts relevant to the OP; and enough about Mary. You have each made your points, and have been noted.

Its a given that Jesus was born of a virgin; but the things that belong to her are not a witness as spoken of by John in 1Jn 5:6-8.

 

[By Grace]

By_Grace and JBL,
Please make your posts relevant to the OP; and enough about Mary. You have each made your points, and have been noted.
Its a given that Jesus was born of a virgin; but the things that belong to her are not a witness as spoken of by John in 1Jn 5:6-8.

I did make that sort of a statement...
I did state that I would no longer post about Mary...
Oh well

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So coming into the world is really secret code for leaving the world through death on the cross...

No.

"(T)he One who came by water and blood,Jesus Christ..." (1 John 5:6 NASB) can be referring to the knowledge and revelation of Christ coming to us by water and blood (and the Holy Spirit, all three being in agreement).

"...the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things" (Ephesians 3:9 NASB)

We see all three, the testimony of the Spirit, and the water and the blood, revealing Jesus to be the Son of God at the cross:

"50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold,the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!" " (Matthew 27:50-54 NASB)

"...one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe." (John 19:34-35 NASB)

 

[JLB]

No.

"(T)he One who came by water and blood,Jesus Christ..." (1 John 5:6 NASB) can be referring to the knowledge and revelation of Christ coming to us by water and blood (and the Holy Spirit, all three being in agreement).

"...the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things" (Ephesians 3:9 NASB)

We see all three, the testimony of the Spirit, and the water and the blood, revealing Jesus to be the Son of God at the cross:

"50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold,the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!" " (Matthew 27:50-54 NASB)

"...one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe." (John 19:34-35 NASB)

... can be referring to the knowledge and revelation of Christ coming to us by water and blood


It that how the knowledge and revelation came to John?

It certainly isn't how it came to Peter.


I appreciate the fact that the blood and water that came out of His side was literal, as the blood and water that John refers to in 1 John 5:6 is literal.

It really is looking at how Jesus refers to natural child birth in John 3:5-6, as John records -

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.John 3:5-6

This is what John heard Jesus say.

This is what John records.

This is why John uses the phrase in 1 John 5.

Born of water is in fact a reference to born of the flesh, natural birth.

A Human being is made up of about 80% water.

Our spirit is not born of water, our flesh, our natural human body is.

Born of water and made up of primarily water. This is all a reference to natural birth.


It is the and the Spirit part that is a reference to born again.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

By_Grace and JBL,

Please make your posts relevant to the OP; and enough about Mary. You have each made your points, and have been noted.

Its a given that Jesus was born of a virgin; but the things that belong to her are not a witness as spoken of by John in 1Jn 5:6-8.

Right.

So going back to the beginning, John does mention the word of life and the blood that cleanses us from all sin. So what do we have? We have the water, the word of life, and the blood, the payment for sin. The Spirit is the witness because He sees what we are doing. He knows our thoughts and the intentions of the heart. He knows who is born of the Spirit. He knows if we have sinned. He knows if we keep the commandments.

And the Spirit and the water and the blood are witnesses. In the sense that witnesses give testimony or evidence, they tell us (testify) we are of God and God is our Father.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... can be referring to the knowledge and revelation of Christ coming to us by water and blood


It that how the knowledge and revelation came to John?

Not entirely, of course, but you did read this in my post, didn't you?

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth..." (John 19:35 NASB)

John testified to what happened at the crucifixion, including the water and the blood coming from the piercing in Jesus' side.

It certainly isn't how it came to Peter.

Not entirely, of course, but he also was at the crucifixion, too.

It really is looking at how Jesus refers to natural child birth in John 3:5-6, as John records -

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.John 3:5-6

This is what John heard Jesus say.

This is what John records.

This is why John uses the phrase in 1 John 5.

Sadly, your interpretation of John 3:5 NASB 1) leaves the gentiles out of the natural birth part, so we know it's not talking about literal natural birth.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Not entirely, of course, but you did read this in my post, didn't you?

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth..." (John 19:35 NASB)
John testified to what happened at the crucifixion, including the water and the blood coming from the piercing in Jesus' side.

Yes I did.

A. - I appreciate that you are staying within the boundaries of literal truth, because 1 John 5 has no symbolic language in it. ie; literal water and blood, as John 19 refers to literal blood and water.

B. - This event was done so that, the prophecy in Zechariah 12:10, should be fulfilled when Jesus returns.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not entirely, of course, but you did read this in my post, didn't you?

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth..." (John 19:35 NASB)

John testified to what happened at the crucifixion, including the water and the blood coming from the piercing in Jesus' side.



Not entirely, of course, but he also was at the crucifixion, too.


Sadly, your interpretation of John 3:5 NASB 1) leaves the gentiles out of the natural birth part, so we know it's not talking about literal natural birth.

How does the requirement to see the kingdom of God, for [Jew or Gentile], by being born of water and the Spirit, leave out Gentiles?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does the requirement to see the kingdom of God, for [Jew or Gentile], by being born of water and the Spirit, leave out Gentiles?

'Cause you say that Jesus was saying that the water is a reference to the requirement for a person to be literally born into the nation of Israel. Gentiles, obviously, are not. So, if your interpretation is correct they don't, and never can, meet the first of the two requirements Jesus said one must satisfy to see the kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes I did.

A. - I appreciate that you are staying within the boundaries of literal truth, because 1 John 5 has no symbolic language in it. ie; literal water and blood, as John 19 refers to literal blood and water.

B. - This event was done so that, the prophecy in Zechariah 12:10, should be fulfilled when Jesus returns.


JLB

And John testifies to that prophecy being fulfilled. He recorded his eye witness account of the piercing of Jesus' side and what flowed as a result--the water and the blood, and the Spirit testifying in agreement that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

'Cause you say that Jesus was saying that the water is a reference to the requirement for a person to be literally born into the nation of Israel.

If you can find where I have stated this, then I will retract it.


What I said - Post # 83 -

Jesus is fighting the Jewish mindset that says - because I am born a natural descendant of Abraham I am a member of God's kingdom.

Jesus taught differently.


Remember what John the Baptist told the Pharisee's -

do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Luke 3:8


Same mindset.

The Abrahamic Covenant was always about the nations.

Abraham was to be the father of many nations - Gentiles


JLB

 

[MarkT]

A. - I appreciate that you are staying within the boundaries of literal truth, because 1 John 5 has no symbolic language in it. ie; literal water and blood, as John 19 refers to literal blood and water.

It's the language of the Spirit and the language of the Scriptures. Jesus used water. All the apostles used water for the word of life. I never said the words are symbolic of something else. It's the meaning of the words, it's the message. If you don't have the words then you don't have the Spirit, and you don't have life.

And regarding John's letter and the reason he wrote it, he states, "I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." So how does Mary's hymen tell us we have eternal life? How does water and the blood coming from the piercing in Jesus' side tells us we have eternal life?

 

[JLB]

And John testifies to that prophecy being fulfilled. He recorded his eye witness account of the piercing of Jesus' side and what flowed as a result--the water and the blood, and the Spirit testifying in agreement that Jesus is the Son of God.

Fulfilled?

What was fulfilled?

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." 37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced."


Here is the scripture that is referring to -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

This is a reference to the Day of the Lord, the return of Christ.

As John says some 60 years later -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


Same thing Jesus says when He returns -

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


His side was pierced, SO THAT when He returns they will look on Him who was pierced.

The fulfillment comes when He returns and THEY LOOK ON HIM WHO WAS PIERCED.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does water and the blood coming from the piercing in Jesus' side tells us we have eternal life?

The fulfillment of prophecy. And we know about that fulfillment of the piercing by John's testimony:

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe." (John 19:34-35 NASB)

The testimony of that water and blood being in agreement with the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

It's the language of the Spirit and the language of the Scriptures. Jesus used water. All the apostles used water for the word of life. I never said the words are symbolic of something else. It's the meaning of the words, it's the message. If you don't have the words then you don't have the Spirit, and you don't have life.

And regarding John's letter and the reason he wrote it, he states, "I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." So how does Mary's hymen tell us we have eternal life? How does water and the blood coming from the piercing in Jesus' side tells us we have eternal life?

Sorry Brother, they won't let me discuss this here anymore.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Fulfilled?

What was fulfilled?

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." 37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced."


Here is the scripture that is referring to -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

This is a reference to the Day of the Lord, the return of Christ.

As John says some 60 years later -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


Same thing Jesus says when He returns -

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


His side was pierced, SO THAT when He returns they will look on Him who was pierced.

The fulfillment comes when He returns and THEY LOOK ON HIM WHO WAS PIERCED.


JLB

This prophecy:

"16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots. " (Psalm 22:16-18 NASB)