the Spirit, the Water, the Blood

[stovebolts]

Jesus came by water. When Jesus came out of the baptismal water, God proclaimed Jesus was his Son.

 

[JLB]

It would be hard for me to comment and keep it within the context of the water and the blood and the Spirit. But I see now why the argument has come up.

When a woman's water breaks just before she starts having contractions, the water is the only thing that comes out.

When the baby is actually born there is blood and placenta associated with every birth.

When Mary's water broke, so did her hymen.

The ONLY proof that a woman is a virgin is her hymen.

That is the woman's testimony to all that she is a virgin.

Regardless of what everyone though about Mary and Joseph, at the time they were betrothed, Mary was a virgin.

The proof she was a virgin, was her hymen was intact, and remained intact, up until the day her water broke and her hymen broke also.


Here is just one reference to what those thought about Jesus and His mother.

This exchange came right after the woman caught in adultery was about to be stoned.


30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Remember, it was those Jews who believed in Him that spoke this phase to Him!

"We were not born of fornication;

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:37-43


"We were not born of fornication; This is a direct reference to Mary and what people though about her and Joseph marrying her because she was with child.

Everyone had heard the rumors. I'm sure John had been asked more than once about this.

His answer: This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 1 John 5:9-10


This is the testimony of God that He has given of His Son.

God's Son became flesh, and was born of a virgin.

That He is not just a good man, but rather that Jesus is the Christ!

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

Only the Christ, the Son of God was born of a virgin.

6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


JLB

I understand your argument perfectly. I simply don't have the witness of the Spirit that the water and the blood is Mary's virgin birth water and blood that now testifies to the world along with the Spirit. That's such a private, non-public thing. That's what makes it unreasonable as an effective witness to Christ's Sonship.

Which is kind of ironic if you think about it. The Spirit testifies, yet we don't know exactly what the water is that testifies with Him. My spidy senses tell me the water is a metonymy for the witness of the Spirit as to his Sonship at his water baptism, or the water is the literal water that came out of his side along with the blood at his death when the Spirit testified to his Sonship at that time, too. Both his water baptism and his crucifixion were very public things at which the Spirit testified, unlike the juices of Mary's very private labor of birth.

 

[JLB]

Jesus came by water. When Jesus came out of the baptismal water, God proclaimed Jesus was his Son.

I understand your argument perfectly. I simply don't have the witness of the Spirit that the water and the blood is Mary's virgin birth water and blood that now testifies to the world along with the Spirit. That's such a private, non-public thing. That's what makes it unreasonable as an effective witness to Chris's Sonship.

Which is kind of ironic if you think about it. The Spirit testifies, yet we don't know exactly what the water is that testifies with Him. My spidy senses tell me the water is a metonymy for the witness of the Spirit as to his Sonship at his water baptism, or the water is the literal water that came out of his side along with the blood at his death when the Spirit testified to his Sonship at that time. Both his water baptism and his crucifixion were very public things at which the Spirit testified, unlike the juices of Mary's very private labor of birth.

It would never testify to the world.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When Mary's water broke, so did her hymen.

Maybe it did. Maybe it was already broken from riding a horse, or doing gymnastics.

30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Remember, it was those Jews who believed in Him that spoke this phase to Him!

"We were not born of fornication;

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:37-43


"We were not born of fornication; This is a direct reference to Mary and what people though about her and Joseph marrying her because she was with child.

Everyone had heard the rumors. I'm sure John had been asked more than once about this.

His answer: This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.



JLB

The problem with this is, even if Joseph was the father and Mary's labor of birth was not a virgin birth, he'd still be a child of Abraham. A virgin birth is not what secures his place as a legitimate descendant of Abraham. In fact, I think just the fact that Mary is a natural Jew herself is what makes any child she would have automatically a natural descendant of Abraham regardless of who the Father is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It would never testify to the world.

What wouldn't?

 

[JLB]

Maybe it did. Maybe it was already broken from riding a horse, or doing gymnastics.



The problem with this is, even if Joseph was the father and Mary's labor of birth was not a virgin birth, he'd still be a child of Abraham. A virgin birth is not what secures his place as a legitimate descendant of Abraham. In fact, I think just the fact that Mary is a natural Jew herself is what makes any child she would have automatically a natural descendant of Abraham regardless of who the Father is.

They accused Jesus as being a child of fornication, because Mary was pregnant before Joseph married her.


The proof that Mary was a virgin was her hymen.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

When a woman's water breaks just before she starts having contractions, the water is the only thing that comes out.

When the baby is actually born there is blood and placenta associated with every birth.

When Mary's water broke, so did her hymen.

The ONLY proof that a woman is a virgin is her hymen.

That is the woman's testimony to all that she is a virgin.

Regardless of what everyone though about Mary and Joseph, at the time they were betrothed, Mary was a virgin.

The proof she was a virgin, was her hymen was intact, and remained intact, up until the day her water broke and her hymen broke also.


Here is just one reference to what those thought about Jesus and His mother.

This exchange came right after the woman caught in adultery was about to be stoned.


30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Remember, it was those Jews who believed in Him that spoke this phase to Him!

"We were not born of fornication;

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:37-43


"We were not born of fornication; This is a direct reference to Mary and what people though about her and Joseph marrying her because she was with child.

Everyone had heard the rumors. I'm sure John had been asked more than once about this.

His answer: This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.



JLB

I actually agree with this view and you laid it out very clearly.
I also believe we can follow in the footsteps of Jesus, and when we come out of the water, God is our Father and he proclaims with His Spirit that we are his Sons and Daughter in Christ through his Sons blood, which was for the forgiveness is sins.

 

[Gregg]

He was sent by the word of God (water) in the form of man (blood) not with the water (the words of God)) only but with the water (the words of God) and the blood (the life of God).

Yes, that is what 1Jn 5:8 is saying.
And it is not just that Jesus came here with the word of God and with His blood - as witnesses by the Father here, and Jesus Here, and the Spirit here . . . but when Jesus the Son of God appeared before His Father [in the heavenly Holy of Holies (Heb 9:11-14)] to make atonement for the saints - the Spirit of God was a firsthand witness to that.

The Father, Son, and Spirit testified that the Father accepted Jesus' blood for our redemption and atonement by Jesus' Resurrection from the dead (1Jn 1:1-2, 1Jn 4:9, 1Jn 5:9, 1Jn 5:11). That transaction was not witnessed by man, and takes faith solely placed with God (1Jn 5:10).

So Jesus' coming into the world is not only that He is Immanuel according to the will of God, but that Jesus Christ is also the Resurrection; the Living One who came here after He died and appeared before His Father!

_

 

[stovebolts]

It would never testify to the world.

I agree. Jesus testifies to the world, and we testify to the Christ who is within us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They accused Jesus as being a child of fornication, because Mary was pregnant before Joseph married her.


The proof that Mary was a virgin was her hymen.


JLB

The point being, even if that was true--that Mary was sleeping around and got pregnant before marriage--Jesus is still in the natural line of Abraham through Mary herself. The Pharisee's defense of their own legitimacy as children of Abraham doesn't have to be a dig at Jesus that he was (supposedly) conceived out of wedlock and is somehow not a child of Abraham himself as you are implying that defense is all about. He already is that by virtue of Mary.

Even if you want to belabor the point about Jesus' birth, you should be addressing the issue of sinlessness, not the issue of natural descendency (which my spell checker says is not a legitimate word....and yes, all these puns are absolutely intentional).

 

[JLB]

The point being, even if that was true--that Mary was sleeping around and got pregnant before marriage--Jesus is still in the natural line of Abraham through Mary herself. The Pharisee's defense of their own legitimacy as children of Abraham doesn't have to be a dig at Jesus that he was (supposedly) conceived out of wedlock and is somehow not a child of Abraham himself as you are implying that defense is all about. He already is that by virtue of Mary.

Even if you want to belabor the point about Jesus' birth, you should be addressing the issue of sinlessness, not the issue of natural descendency (which my spell checker says is not a legitimate word....and yes, all these puns are absolutely intentional).

I'm not addressing any issue of natural decendency, I'm am stating that the proof of the virgin birth was the water and the blood, not the water only, but the water and the blood.

A sinless bloodline.

It was those who knew of Jesus and Mary, who being from that region that accused Him of being a child of fornication, because Mary was pregnant before Joseph married her.


John, in his letter addressed this issue.

...for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son, there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood;


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I actually agree with this view and you laid it out very clearly.
I also believe we can follow in the footsteps of Jesus, and when we come out of the water, God is our Father and he proclaims with His Spirit that we are his Sons and Daughter in Christ through his Sons blood, which was for the forgiveness is sins.

How do we know Mary had the particular blood of a ruptured hymen when she gave birth to Jesus?

 

[JLB]

How do we know Mary had the particular blood of a ruptured hymen when she gave birth to Jesus?

Because of what is written to us by The Apostle John...

This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not addressing any issue of natural decendency, I'm am stating that the proof of the virgin birth was the water and the blood, not the water only, but the water and the blood.

A sinless bloodline.

It was those who knew of Jesus and Mary, who being from that region that accused Him of being a child of fornication, because Mary was pregnant before Joseph married her.

But you used a passage of scripture that's talking about natural lineage, not sinless perfection of some kind.

John, in his letter addressed this issue.

...for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son, there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood;


JLB

I don't know that Mary had an issue of blood from her hymen at his birth for this to be true.

 

[JLB]

But you used a passage of scripture that's talking about natural lineage, not sinless perfection of some kind.



I don't know that Mary had an issue of blood from her hymen at his birth for this to be true.

I can see that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because of what is written to us by The Apostle John...

This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.


JLB

That's circular reasoning. You're saying that Jesus coming by water and blood means the blood of her hymen...and that we know it's the blood of her hymen because John said he came by water and blood.

 

[reba]

I'm not addressing any issue of natural decendency, I'm am stating that the proof of the virgin birth was the water and the blood, not the water only, but the water and the blood.

A sinless bloodline.

It was those who knew of Jesus and Mary, who being from that region that accused Him of being a child of fornication, because Mary was pregnant before Joseph married her.


John, in his letter addressed this issue.

...for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son, there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood;


JLB

Sex in marriage is not a sin... It is not the sex act that causes us to be born with a sin nature..that came with disobedience way back in the Garden. Mary was not sinless even though she was virgin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sex in marriage is not a sin...

Can you explain that to my wife?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm leaning heavier and heavier to the water being his public baptism, more than the water--coming out of his side with the blood--being in reference to his public death. Both of which are testified to by, both, men, and the Holy Spirit.

"9 If we receive the testimony of men (about the water and the blood--his public baptism and death), the testimony of God (the Holy Spirit) is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. " (1 John 5:9 NASB)