the Spirit, the Water, the Blood

[JLB]

That's circular reasoning. You're saying that Jesus coming by water and blood means the blood of her hymen...and that we know it's the blood of her hymen because John said he came by water and blood.

That's Jethro Bodinism.

Just good cyfering

 

[JLB]

Sex in marriage is not a sin... It is not the sex act that causes us to be born with a sin nature..that came with disobedience way back in the Garden. Mary was not sinless even though she was virgin.

Don't really understand your point.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm leaning heavier and heavier to the water being his public baptism, more than the water--coming out of his side with the blood--being in reference to his public death. Both of which are testified to by, both, men, and the Holy Spirit.

"9 If we receive the testimony of men (about the water and the blood--his public baptism and death), the testimony of God (the Holy Spirit) is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. " (1 John 5:9 NASB)

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." 37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced."
John 19:34-37

His side was pierced SO THAT the scripture should be fulfilled...

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

His side was pierced so that when He returns, they will look on Him whom they pierced.


John also makes reference to this -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

This is a direct reference to Zechariah 12:10.



Without His side being pierced, then how could they look on Him who they pierced?


JLB

 

[MarkT]

When a woman's water breaks just before she starts having contractions, the water is the only thing that comes out.

When the baby is actually born there is blood and placenta associated with every birth.

When Mary's water broke, so did her hymen.

The ONLY proof that a woman is a virgin is her hymen.

That is the woman's testimony to all that she is a virgin.

Regardless of what everyone though about Mary and Joseph, at the time they were betrothed, Mary was a virgin.

The proof she was a virgin, was her hymen was intact, and remained intact, up until the day her water broke and her hymen broke also.


Here is just one reference to what those thought about Jesus and His mother.

This exchange came right after the woman caught in adultery was about to be stoned.


30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Remember, it was those Jews who believed in Him that spoke this phase to Him!

"We were not born of fornication;

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:37-43


"We were not born of fornication; This is a direct reference to Mary and what people though about her and Joseph marrying her because she was with child.

Everyone had heard the rumors. I'm sure John had been asked more than once about this.

His answer: This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.



JLB

Wrong on many counts. These Jews were Jews who had believed in him, who now sought to kill him, to whom Jesus said 'you are of your father the devil'. Their protest that they were legitimate, which has the same meaning as not born of fornication, sons of God, has nothing to do with Mary or what people thought of her.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." 37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced."
John 19:34-37

His side was pierced SO THAT the scripture should be fulfilled...

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

His side was pierced so that when He returns, they will look on Him whom they pierced.


John also makes reference to this -

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

This is a direct reference to Zechariah 12:10.



Without His side being pierced, then how could they look on Him who they pierced?


JLB

This is what I'm saying. If the water is the water that issued forth with his blood on Calvary, that water, and the blood with it, testify in agreement with the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God spoken about in prophecy. All three being in agreement.

I've heard the water and blood being symbolic of the birth of his bride the church and the taking of his bride from his side, just as Eve, Adam's wife, had her beginning when was taken from the side of Adam when he slept.

 

[reba]

Don't really understand your point.


JLB

LOL and i dont understand yours

Jesus was not sinless because Mary was virgin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

LOL and i dont understand yours

You don't think this will somehow hinder the discussion, do you?

 

[JLB]

LOL and i dont understand yours

Jesus was not sinless because Mary was virgin.

Wow!!!

Please show me the post where I said this!!!

 

[JLB]

This is what I'm saying. If the water is the water that issued forth with his blood on Calvary, that water, and the blood with it, testify in agreement with the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God spoken about in prophecy. All three being in agreement.

I've heard the water and blood being symbolic of the birth of his bride the church and the taking of his bride from
his side, just as Eve, Adam's wife, had her beginning when was taken from the side of Adam when he slept.

The scriptures says "He came by water and blood" which is a reference to coming into this world, literally.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

Back to the thread . . .

"And there are three who bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one." (1John 5:8 LITV)

What is this verse referring to?

1) It refers to Jesus the Son of God as Immanuel, coming from heaven to secure our redemption at the cross.
2) It refers to Jesus' coming after the Resurrection, having made atonement for us, having prepared for us the way to the Father
​

What is the water and the blood?

1) water: the testimony of God, the express will of God, the truth

that which Jesus came through [dia] and came in [en].​

2) blood: the testimony of Jesus' righteousness, the life

that which Jesus came through [dia] and came in [en].​

What is the context of this verse?

summarily - "Who is the one overcoming the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? . . . The one believing in the Son of God has the witness in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning His Son.
(1Jn 5:5, 10 LITVP).​

Does 1 John 5:8 refer to the Trinity?

Yes; the Holy Spirit of God, God the Father, and Jesus the Son of God.
​

- - -

Way, Truth, Life

Jesus is the only Way to the Father, the Truth having explained and demonstrated the will of God, and the source of eternal Life having procured our redemption and atonement through His blood. "Thomas said to Him, 'Lord, we do not know where You go, and how can we know the way?' Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you do know Him, and have seen Him' " (John 14:5-7 LITV).

After Jesus the Son of God made atonement for us to the Father (in heaven Heb 9:11, 14-15), He left the heavenly Temple and was resurrected in His body. On His way to the Resurrection from being in the presence of His Father in heaven, Jesus passed through the veil [His flesh (Heb 10:20), Jesus the Way] exiting the Temple, past the bronze laver of water [Jesus the Truth], and past the bronze altar of sacrifice [Jesus the Life] as He made His way out of the courtyard, towards the place of His burial so that we might witness His Resurrection.

Jn 14:6 is a picture of Jesus coming here from the Father between His death on the cross and His Resurrection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The scriptures says "He came by water and blood" which is a reference to coming into this world, literally.


JLB

Coming into the world can also be a reference to his revelation to the world as the eternal Messiah.

 

[reba]

Wow!!!

Please show me the post where I said this!!!

Not directly but reading your posts on Mary's hymen etc. lead me to that conclusion..

The hymen can be 'lost' in other ways then sex .. I am not saying one way or the other, about Mary, just a statement of fact... My guess is her's was intact until His birth...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The hymen can be 'lost' in other ways then sex .. I am not saying one way or the other, about Mary, just a statement of fact... My guess is her's was intact until His birth...

Maybe Classik can start a poll..........okay, maybe not 2.

 

[By Grace]

Because of what is written to us by The Apostle John... This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
JLB

Have you ever seen a natural birth? It is indeed bloody.
(Edited, Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

Coming into the world can also be a reference to his revelation to the world as the eternal Messiah.

So coming into the world is really secret code for leaving the world through death on the cross......... NOT!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Have you ever seen a natural birth? It is indeed bloody.
(Edited, Obadiah)

Have you ever witnessed a woman's water break?

It is not bloody.

A woman whose water and hymen break is bloody.


edited



JLB

 

[JLB]

Reba said -

My guess is her's was intact until His birth...

 

[By Grace]

Maybe Classik can start a poll..........okay, maybe not 2.

This hymen thing is (not mentioned in Scripture) (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness.)

There is absolutely ZERO said in Scripture about her hymen (Edited, Obadiah.). Because there is silence in the Scripture on that issue, anything that anyone says dogmatically about it is (possibly incorrect) (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah). Simply put, you cannot create a doctrine from silence. Any doctrine created from silence, is (incorrect in my opinion) (Edited, ToS 2.4) because it has NO Scripture to back it up. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah.)

Jeff, I know that you DID NOT START this discussion, so I am not really posting to you; but I am using your post to make my point, OK? (Edited, members do not have authority to set limitations on other members choice of topics of discussion that are within the ToS and Statement of Faith. Obadiah) Scripture says that she remained a virgin until; after the birth of Jesus when Joseph "knew her". see Matthew 1:25 That should be sufficient; anything more is extraneous, (Edited, ToS 2.4, Casting doubt on another members spirituality, Obadiah)
(Edited, ToS 2.4, insulting and rude. Obadiah.)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, insulting and offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah)

 

[By Grace]

Have you ever witnessed a woman's water break?

It is not bloody. A woman whose water and hymen break is bloody. Therefore I conclude you don't know what you are posting about.
JLB

You are moving the goalposts here. I did not mention anything about the amniotic sac breaking. Absolutely no one is born at the same time as the breaking of the sac. That is just the beginning of the labor process. That process ends with the birth of the animal, or child followed by the discharge of the placenta. Birth is indeed a bloody process.

But I am not posting in order to bicker. am merely posting common sense, and common human biology and physiology. (Edited, Obadiah.) I do not consider you my enemy in any manner, OK?

BTW this sort of discussion (Edited, Obadiah) is not relevant to the OP. (Edited, Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

You are moving the goalposts here. I did not mention anything about the amniotic sac breaking. Absolutely no one is born at the same time as the breaking of the sac. That is just the beginning of the labor process. That process ends with the birth of the animal, or child followed by the discharge of the placenta. Birth is indeed a bloody process.

But I am not posting in order to bicker. am merely posting common sense, and common human biology and physiology. (Edited, Obadiah.) I do not consider you my enemy in any manner, OK?

BTW this sort of discussion (Edited, Obadiah) is not relevant to the OP. (Edited, Obadiah.)

A. I don't see us as bickering.

B. What i have posted is exactly what the OP is about:

In reference to the following verse:
"And there are three who bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one." (1John 5:8 LITV)

What is this verse referring to?
What is the water and the blood?
What is the context of this verse?

The water and blood refer to the water and blood of Mary's water sack and hymen, when Jesus came into the world.

C. All of the above.


JLB