The Story of the Rich Young Ruler - Are We Hypocrites?

[Drew]

I am of two minds in even responding to Bibleberean, since I find that he generally "argues" his points by calling people "fools", "frauds", or "hypocrites" or engaging in a lot of similar rhetoric.

In any event, the careful reader will note that I have bent over backwards to say that I am pointing my finger at myself as well. Besides, the general tone of my posts has been non-rhetorical and non-judgemental - actually making sound arguments is a lot more interesting than name-calling. My friend, you have some serious nerve comparing your opponents in this thread to Judas.....

Anyhoo.....

There is a problem with using the Mark 14 text this way. Jesus is underscoring his special role as redeemer. This is why he does not rebuke the woman who annointed him, when the issue of the poor is brought up. He was making a special point about His centrality in the plan of salvation.

 

[nuhmmie]

QUATH: You spent thousands at disney land?

*scoots chair next to Quath*
*poofs hair*

so, big boy, when's our trip to hawaii? *bats eyelashes*

:wink:

In truth we are hypocrites. Even down the the most minute detail. Have you ever complained to God or anyone else incessantly about something that bothered you and yet the first thing you think after a friend or co worker incessantly complains is "sheesh, quite your bit@hn'!", "I'm sick of hearing you whine!" Or the way we drive, as though we're never the "jackass!".

we're selfish by nature. we're hyprocrites by nature. Paul wrote alot about our nature. but I ask you this:

did Jesus die to make bad men good?

after all that Paul suffered for Christ, did all of his bad natural habits disappear?

 

[Drew]

How has the case been made that "giving to the bare-essentials" is man's law or man's expectation? It is Jesus who gives the directive to the young ruler.

If you tell me to do it or that God expects me to do it, yet I don't interpret scripture as you do nor do I feel direction from God to do it that particular way, then who am I trying to please, you or God?

Obviously, we do not interpret the scriptures the same way. I guess that we will have to agree to disagree. Appreciate your input .....

 

[Soma-Sight]

You guys are all ridiculous!!

Just give to the poor and make a few sacrifices.

How hard is it?

No one is asking anyone else to sell there liver or Geo Prism for starving black kids in Africa! Sure it would be Godly to do so but it is not necesarry to carry it that far if you have other ways to help.

Just make a few cuts to the materialism in your life and help some poor kids or families out.

Its a responsibility of any good Christian to do so.

The true Judas' in this world are those that do not help the poor at all Bibleberean.

The true Judas' in this world are those that worship materialism over helping starving children.

 

[destiny]

How has the case been made that "giving to the bare-essentials" is man's law or man's expectation? It is Jesus who gives the directive to the young ruler.

If you tell me to do it or that God expects me to do it, yet I don't interpret scripture as you do nor do I feel direction from God to do it that particular way, then who am I trying to please, you or God?

Obviously, we do not interpret the scriptures the same way. I guess that we will have to agree to disagree. Appreciate your input .....

Thanks Drew.

 

[bibleberean]

You guys are all ridiculous!!

Just give to the poor and make a few sacrifices.

How hard is it?

No one is asking anyone else to sell there liver or Geo Prism for starving black kids in Africa! Sure it would be Godly to do so but it is not necesarry to carry it that far if you have other ways to help.

Just make a few cuts to the materialism in your life and help some poor kids or families out.

Its a responsibility of any good Christian to do so.

The true Judas' in this world are those that do not help the poor at all Bibleberean.

The true Judas' in this world are those that worship materialism over helping starving children.

I have no problem with that. The problem I have is the people that think you cannot enjoy what you have worked hard for with out feeling guilty.

I still say to those who want to give up everything but the basics "knock yourself out!"

Look at Mother Teresa. She helped the sick and the starving. She fed the poor but she preached a false gospel. She cared for the sick but then helped launch them into a Christless eternity.

This verse comes to mind.

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

I would rather spend my time and energy preaching the gospel and supporting missionaries that go into the world then trying to bring about world peace and an end to hunger. Read the bible. It isn't going to happen. Jesus said the poor will be with us always.

"When Mother Teresa died, her longtime friend and biographer Naveen Chawla said that he once asked her bluntly, "Do you convert?" She replied, "Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you’ve found God, it’s up to you to decide how to worship him" ("Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths," Associated Press, Sept. 7, 1997)."

The eternal destiny of a man's soul is more important than feeding the poor.

I don't see starving people I see lost people in this country. Many good missionaries preach the gospel and help the poor to help themselves.

No one is against that.

It is arrogant to assume that the people who don't brag about their "good works" probably don't do any.

That is why more Christians don't post in this thread. It is too exasperating.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Look at Mother Teresa. She helped the sick and the starving. She fed the poor but she preached a false gospel. She cared for the sick but then helped launch them into a Christless eternity.

Do you really believe that?

For if you give, you will get! Your gift will return to you in full and overflowing measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use to give -- large or small -- will be used to measure what is given back to you." (TLB, Luke 6:38)

 

[bibleberean]

Look at Mother Teresa. She helped the sick and the starving. She fed the poor but she preached a false gospel. She cared for the sick but then helped launch them into a Christless eternity.

Do you really believe that?

For if you give, you will get! Your gift will return to you in full and overflowing measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use to give -- large or small -- will be used to measure what is given back to you." (TLB, Luke 6:38)

Do you understand the gospel?

"When Mother Teresa died, her longtime friend and biographer Naveen Chawla said that he once asked her bluntly, "Do you convert?" She replied, "Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you’ve found God, it’s up to you to decide how to worship him" ("Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths," Associated Press, Sept. 7, 1997)."

Mother Teresa taught a false gospel.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

We are not saved by works of righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Our own righteousness is counted as filthy rags in the sight of God.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I think you have some serious doctrinal problems.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I think you have some serious doctrinal problems.

hehe, dont we all berean....

dont we all?

 

[bibleberean]

I think you have some serious doctrinal problems.

hehe, dont we all berean....

dont we all?

No :angel:

 

[ThinkerMan]

Just give to the poor and make a few sacrifices.

How hard is it?

As you know Soma, if recollect my NT correctly, Jesus actually says its very difficult. Something about a camel and a needle, if I remember correctly.

Something most of the posts here seem to illustrate perfectly.

But I guess Jesus was only talking about that camel and that needle. Not camels and needles in general.

Apparently most camels can pass through needle eyes quite easily, with the exception of the one in question who happend to be grazing by Jesus that day.

Kudos to Drew and Soma for raising the difficult questions here. This is one of the most interesting threads I have followed in my time here. When one juxtaposes Jesus' directive here with the "faith alone" theory of Paul, it certainly raises some interesting theological questions, and in my opinion, unreconcilable contradictions.

 

[Gary]

The two most important laws... when actions speak louder than words

Luke 10:25-37

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

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We all know this parable. We quickly say "...but of course, I would do the same.." but would you, do you? Are you really the priest and the Levite? Jesus totally redefines the idea of a neighbor so that it is NOT only our fellow-USA citizens. Do you not see hurting and dying and injured and starving people EVERY day on your TV? Do you also pass them by, change channel...... like the priest and the Levite?

The Samaritan stopped, used his own "medicine" (water and wine), got his hands dirty, used his own transport, used his knowledge of Jericho, interrupted his own schedule to spend the night with the injured man, used his money to pay for the accommodation, offered to pay more on his return trip.......

I wonder who "preached" the Gospel to the injured man .... by his actions!

But look at the last verse. Jesus COMMANDS... "Go and do likewise."

So who is your neighbor?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who want to contribute time, effort and resources to HIV/Aids orphans in South Africa or want to help child-headed households to be fed and help them to learn how to feed themselves (organic vegetable gardens), please contact me via e-mail. Many of these children have come to saving faith and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ by FIRST being helped; by the gospel of Samaritan-like help before the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

My e-mail is on my profile.

This global village is small. Your neighbor lives less than a day's travel away from you!

What is Jesus telling you to do?

:-?

 

[Gary]

Just give to the poor and make a few sacrifices.

How hard is it?

As you know Soma, if recollect my NT correctly, Jesus actually says its very difficult. Something about a camel and a needle, if I remember correctly.

Something most of the posts here seem to illustrate perfectly.

But I guess Jesus was only talking about that camel and that needle. Not camels and needles in general.

Apparently most camels can pass through needle eyes quite easily, with the exception of the one in question who happend to be grazing by Jesus that day.

Kudos to Drew and Soma for raising the difficult questions here. This is one of the most interesting threads I have followed in my time here. When one juxtaposes Jesus' directive here with the "faith alone" theory of Paul, it certainly raises some interesting theological questions, and in my opinion, unreconcilable contradictions.

Good post ThinkerMan. But I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus tells us about the two most important laws. IF we honestly follow the first law, 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind', THEN you will want to follow the second law, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Both Paul and James say the same thing. There is no contradiction at all.

Saved by grace

• (Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
  (Romans 3:20 Romans 3:28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
  (Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Saved by works

• (James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
  (Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25-37). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by grace to faith. Also, Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in this site of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by faith through grace.

Source: - here -
Further reading: Are we Justified by Faith (Romans) or by Works (James)?

 

[destiny]

As you know Soma, if recollect my NT correctly, Jesus actually says its very difficult. Something about a camel and a needle, if I remember correctly.

Something most of the posts here seem to illustrate perfectly.

But I guess Jesus was only talking about that camel and that needle. Not camels and needles in general.

Apparently most camels can pass through needle eyes quite easily, with the exception of the one in question who happend to be grazing by Jesus that day.

Kudos to Drew and Soma for raising the difficult questions here.

It appears judgmentalism, hypocrisy, and self righteousness flow pretty freely here too!


Luke 18: 9-14 Take heed

9 Jesus told this parable to people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and viewed others with contempt:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee (one who was dedicated to keeping every detail of Law), and the other a publican (who collected Roman taxes for a profit and was despised by the people).

11 The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to God, I thank you that I am not like other people, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this publican (tax collector).

12 I fast twice a week; ((I pay tithes of all that I get.)) :wink:

13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was not even willing to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner!

14 I tell you, this man went down to his justified rather than the other; for the ones who exalt themselves shall be humbled, but the ones who humble themselves shall be exalted.


Thanks Garybee for adding some right perspective here.

 

[bibleberean]

Look at Mother Teresa. She helped the sick and the starving. She fed the poor but she preached a false gospel. She cared for the sick but then helped launch them into a Christless eternity.

Do you really believe that?

For if you give, you will get! Your gift will return to you in full and overflowing measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use to give -- large or small -- will be used to measure what is given back to you." (TLB, Luke 6:38)

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can do all the good works you want. That doesn't mean the person doing the "good works" is saved.

We are saved for good works not by them.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How clear does it have to be?

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

For all the good works Mother Teresa did it will not get her into heaven.

Now before any of you MT fans jump all over me. I didn't say MT wasn't saved. I said her good works couldn't and didn't save her.

I will say this without apology. If she died believing the universalist gospel which she preached and did not repent she is now awaiting the final judgment.

Excerpted from the following site.

http://www.scionofzion.com/teresa.htm

"No one would deny that "Mother" Teresa is doing a marvelous piece of wonderful humanitarian work among the poor and neglected of the world, but what gospel does she preach to them? She is definitely not leading them to the one, true, eternal salvation through the finished sacrifice of Calvary.

"Mother" Teresa provides the classic example of compassionate and charitable deeds divorced from truth. She says that her purpose is to bring her patients closer to the "God" in whom they already believe; so that a Hindu becomes a better Hindu, a Buddhist a better Buddhist, etc.

(Vatican II says those of all religions are somehow saved through the Church.) She tells how to witness for Jesus: In an interview with a nun who works with "Mother" Teresa (reported in Christian News ), dying Hindus were instructed to pray to their own Hindu gods!:

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She replied candidly, 'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'"

bb adds:

We are instructed to preach the gospel. Jesus said...

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

What good does it do to help a person die comfortably without giving them an oportunity to hear the gospel?

"Out of the frying pan and into the fire!"

Remember I have never said that we shouldn't do good to both the just and the unjust.

I am simply saying that eternity is more important than temporary comfort.

Mother Teresa's legacy goes on...

Again...excerpted from

http://www.scionofzion.com/teresa.htm


The following is from an interview with a Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. The interview was conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.

Q: Do you believe if they die believing in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven?

A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith, surely they will be saved.

Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right?

A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation.

Obviously, then, "Mother" Teresa is both a pantheist and a Universalist--Universalists maintain that Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and other non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ; they are those who believe that all who sincerely follow their own religions or beliefs will be saved. "Mother" Teresa tells Muslims and Jews that they worship the same God that Christians worship. "Mother" Teresa has even called atheistic communists children of God!

"Mother" Teresa is very much in the mainstream of the ecumenical world evangelization project "Evangelization 2000."

She was on hand in June, 1987, by invitation, to help dedicate the offices of Evangelization 2000 in Rome. She is an honorary member of Lumen 2000, the electronic media aspect of Evangelization 2000.

The first issue of New Evangelization 2000 features "Mother" Teresa prominently with photographs of her, and one entire article entitled, "Mother Teresa Promises Support." (Reported in the 2/15/93 Bold Truth Press .)

["Mother" Teresa was also scheduled to join the Dalai Lama and hundreds of other world religious leaders at the Parliament of the World's Religions in 1993 in Chicago, Illinois. She was scheduled to lead a closed session of key participants on future co-operative efforts among the world's religions, but was forced to cancel for health reasons.

Remember the words of Christ...

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

 

[Gary]

Faith without deeds

So you try justify yourself by what Mother Teresa did and believed?

Let us see what James says about faith without deeds.

James 2:5-24

5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Faith and Deeds

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatâ€â€and shudder.

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... and John

1 John 3:11-24

Love one another

11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

 

[bibleberean]

Look at Mother Teresa. She helped the sick and the starving. She fed the poor but she preached a false gospel. She cared for the sick but then helped launch them into a Christless eternity.

Do you really believe that?

For if you give, you will get! Your gift will return to you in full and overflowing measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use to give -- large or small -- will be used to measure what is given back to you." (TLB, Luke 6:38)

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can do all the good works you want. That doesn't mean the person doing the "good works" is saved.

We are saved for good works not by them.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How clear does it have to be?

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

For all the good works Mother Teresa did it will not get her into heaven.

Now before any of you MT fans jump all over me. I didn't say MT wasn't saved. I said her good works couldn't and didn't save her.

I will say this without apology. If she died believing the universalist gospel which she preached and did not repent she is now awaiting the final judgment.

Excerpted from the following site.

http://www.scionofzion.com/teresa.htm

"No one would deny that "Mother" Teresa is doing a marvelous piece of wonderful humanitarian work among the poor and neglected of the world, but what gospel does she preach to them? She is definitely not leading them to the one, true, eternal salvation through the finished sacrifice of Calvary.

"Mother" Teresa provides the classic example of compassionate and charitable deeds divorced from truth. She says that her purpose is to bring her patients closer to the "God" in whom they already believe; so that a Hindu becomes a better Hindu, a Buddhist a better Buddhist, etc.

(Vatican II says those of all religions are somehow saved through the Church.) She tells how to witness for Jesus: In an interview with a nun who works with "Mother" Teresa (reported in Christian News ), dying Hindus were instructed to pray to their own Hindu gods!:

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She replied candidly, 'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'"

bb adds:

We are instructed to preach the gospel. Jesus said...

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

What good does it do to help a person die comfortably without giving them an oportunity to hear the gospel?

"Out of the frying pan and into the fire!"

Remember I have never said that we shouldn't do good to both the just and the unjust.

I am simply saying that eternity is more important than temporary comfort.

Mother Teresa's legacy goes on...

Again...excerpted from

http://www.scionofzion.com/teresa.htm


The following is from an interview with a Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. The interview was conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.

Q: Do you believe if they die believing in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven?

A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith, surely they will be saved.

Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right?

A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation.

Obviously, then, "Mother" Teresa is both a pantheist and a Universalist--Universalists maintain that Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and other non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ; they are those who believe that all who sincerely follow their own religions or beliefs will be saved. "Mother" Teresa tells Muslims and Jews that they worship the same God that Christians worship. "Mother" Teresa has even called atheistic communists children of God!

"Mother" Teresa is very much in the mainstream of the ecumenical world evangelization project "Evangelization 2000."

She was on hand in June, 1987, by invitation, to help dedicate the offices of Evangelization 2000 in Rome. She is an honorary member of Lumen 2000, the electronic media aspect of Evangelization 2000.

The first issue of New Evangelization 2000 features "Mother" Teresa prominently with photographs of her, and one entire article entitled, "Mother Teresa Promises Support." (Reported in the 2/15/93 Bold Truth Press .)

["Mother" Teresa was also scheduled to join the Dalai Lama and hundreds of other world religious leaders at the Parliament of the World's Religions in 1993 in Chicago, Illinois. She was scheduled to lead a closed session of key participants on future co-operative efforts among the world's religions, but was forced to cancel for health reasons.

Remember the words of Christ...

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Good works are a must. We simply are not saved by them.

If an individual wants to give away everything but the bare essentials to help the poor by all means that person should go for it.

I am not going to promote teaching a false gospel and say that Roman Catholic heretick Mother Teresa gained admission into heaven because she fed the poor.

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?[/quote]

I don't need to justify myself... :-D

Romans 8:33-34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[bibleberean]

Christians should be generous givers. None of us should give out of constraint or manipulation because some greedy pastor or bleeding heart liberal wants to look good.

If anyone is a hypocrite it is those who piously point accusing fingers at people and try to badger and harass Christians into doing what they themselves couldn't do.

These phonys need to sell there computers, cars, bicycles books and clothes and go live under a rock somewhere in order to be true to their convoluted logic.

In my opinion the reasons more Chrisitian posters didn't want to post in this thread because they probably are quite generous and don't want to write how much they give.

To those of you who are worried about other Christians and how much they give or don't give my advice is look at yourself and see if you are practicing what you preach.

I believe we should be as generous as we can with what God has blessed us with. We should care about others. That is what should be preached. It isn't necessary to sanctimoniously look around and badger others into giving.

2 Corinthians 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

And when you give try not to be a hypocrite.

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Matthew 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Some men sound a trumpet by piously accusing others of not being generous. What they are implying is that they are.

It absolutely gags me... :smt078


Abraham, Isacc and Jacob were blessed greatly by God with riches. As a result of their riches they were able to hire servants etc. and bless others.

Giving away all your wealth at this time is a decision an individual could choose to do if he wanted to.

It is your wealth to do as you please with. We will give an account to God for what we do on this earth with what he has blessed us with.

I think a person that is "guilt ridden" by what he or she considers too much wealth would do better to practice what they preached then to try to draw others into their pitiful plight.

 

[Drew]

Boy this thread is getting more interesting by the minute...

Actually, I think one can make a case for "bare-essentials" living without even appealing to the Bible. Consider the following:

1. If they have the means to do so, all human beings have a moral obligation to provide the very basics of life to those whose plight is not of their own making (i.e. those people who have not "created their own problems" through, say, a chronic unwillingness to work). Basics of life = food, clean water, shelter, security, basic health (maybe other stuff?)

2. There are, in point of fact, many people on this planet who are in need of the basics of life and are not responsible for their situation (tens or hundreds of millions, I would guess)

3. The "means to do so" from item 1 needs to be more clearly specified. I would assert that anything that is a "luxury" counts as an asset that could be turned into the "basics of life". A luxury item would be anything that is not itself either a "basic of life" or any thing that arguably could be used to generate "wealth" (even intellectual capital) specifically for the purpose of being used to provide the "basics of life". So spending $100,000 to get a university degree that enables you to contribute to the development of new medical / agricultural technologies is not a luxury item. However, a DVD player, a sports car, a vacation in France, a $300,000 house, a country home, a diamond ring, etc. would be luxury items.

4. One need not give to the point of being in need oneself, or one need not give once everyone on the Earth has the basics of life. In other words, it OK to be Donald Trump if no one is starving.

5. It is almost certain that the magnitude of need for basics of life (say expressed in dollars) exceeds the total dollar value of all the luxuries held by all people in the world.

6. Conclusion: We are all obligated to give up all our luxuries.

Note that I am not representing this as a specifically "Christian" argument. For example, I think some Christians (and non-Christians too) would argue that we need to help people even if they are responsible for their own plight. Or I think some Christians will say that we need to give even to the point of denying ourselves the basics of life, as long as someone else is being provided with the basics.

Where does this argument fail?

 

[Gary]

"....how can the love of God be in him?" 1 John 3:16-20

I have also met and talked to many Christians that have "bleeding hearts" and want every one to feel guilty for having material possessions while people around the world are starving.

Gary: "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:16-20)

Christians should be generous givers. None of us should give out of constraint or manipulation because some greedy pastor or bleeding heart liberal wants to look good.

Gary: "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:16-20)

I am 55 years old and in this country I have never seen a person starving to death. I have never witnessed a person who was forced to walk the streets naked because they had no clothes.

Gary: "But he (the expert in the law) wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

"In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

"The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

"Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:25-37)

If most of us saw someone in that condition we would help them to get back on their feet. We shouldn't feel guilty because they were hungry and naked unless this person was starving because we put them there.

Gary: Again, Luke 10:25-37. We all know this parable. We quickly say "...but of course, I would do the same.." but would you, do you? Or do we build all sorts of excuses like "We shouldn't feel guilty because they were hungry and naked unless this person was starving because we put them there." Are you really only the priest or the Levite? Jesus totally redefines the idea of a neighbor so that it is NOT only our fellow-USA citizens. Do you not see hurting and dying and injured and starving people EVERY day on your TV? Do you also pass them by, change channel...... like the priest and the Levite?

It is your wealth to do as you please with. We will give an account to God for what we do on this earth with what he has blessed us with.

Gary: "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:16-20)

I think a person that is "guilt ridden" by what he or she considers too much wealth would do better to practice what they preached then to try to draw others into their pitiful plight.

Gary: 1 John 3:16-20 "This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us."

If someone stated that Christians need to be better stewards of what God has entrusted to them and be more aware of the needs of his brothers and sisters and meet those needs, then I would agree with them.

Gary: "Who is my neighbour?" asked the expert in the law. Read Luke 10:25-37 again for the answer. The Samaritan stopped, used his own "medicine" (water and wine), got his hands dirty, used his own transport, used his knowledge of Jericho, interrupted his own schedule to spend the night with the injured man, used his own money to pay for the accommodation, offered to pay more on his return trip.......

The problem with hypocrites is that they want us to use our money to help the poor and are very critical of us.

Gary: "Jesus told him (the expert in the law), "Go and do likewise." Luke 10:25-37

The eternal destiny of a man's soul is more important than feeding the poor.

Gary: Many hungry children and destitute people have come to saving faith and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ by FIRST being helped; by the gospel of Samaritan-like help before the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ever tried preaching the Gospel to a hungry child or someone lying shivering on the pavement/sidewalk?

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." (1 John 3:16-20)

I don't see starving people; I see lost people in this country. Many good missionaries preach the gospel and help the poor to help themselves.

Gary: For those who want to contribute time, effort and resources to HIV/Aids orphans in South Africa or want to help child-headed households to be fed and help them to learn how to feed themselves (organic vegetable gardens), please contact me via e-mail. If you have not seen pictures of these starving and dying children, I can e-mail them to you.

This global village is small. Your neighbor lives less than a day's travel away from you!

What is Jesus telling you to do?