Bible Study The Strong Delusion

[Betty]

The author of Hebrews, based upon how he uses the OT verses that he quotes, would seem to indicate that it is impossible to REALLY understand the OT without viewing it through the lens of what has been revealed in the NT. This does not then render the OT irrelevant, but it illuminates the typologies all the clearer so that we can finally see the depth and breath of the typologies presented throughout scripture.

As a quick example, it is only looking back from the knowledge of Jesus' Blood shed on the Cross, that you can see the depth of God killing the animals to clothe Adam and Eve. Or the real meaning of the Passover Lamb. Or the animal sacrifices on the altar in the temple. And from this rich past, what more does this teach us about the Cup of Wine in the NT? And even the slaughter at Armageddon.

That makes a lot of sense

I agree completely.

Even the offerings can be understood more clearly viewed through the NT, Such as this:

Psalms 107:22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.

Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Leviticus 7:12 If he offer it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the sacrifice of thanksgiving unleavened cakes mingled with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and cakes mingled with oil, of fine flour, fried.

The passage in Leviticus is a great one when consider what leaven is as well.

I've kinda taken the view that many of the OT principles have more natural and tangible aspects whereas the NT takes us into the Spiritual aspects of those things.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

And as you said:

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

So going into those things, without being in Christ, (who takes away the veil,) the full extent couldn't be grasped.

Really good points atpollard, thank you.

 

[Nathan]

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What cause?
2 Thessalonians 2:10 ...that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God shall send them strong delusion...

4106 delusion Definition:
a wandering, a straying about
one led astray from the right way, roams hither and thither
metaph.
mental straying
error, wrong opinion relative to morals or religion
error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of acting
error, that which leads into error, deceit or fraud

2 Thessalonians 2:11
even/then/also
wherefore/therefore
the ground or reason by which something is or is not done...
Elohiym/God
to send
of them/he
working/efficiency <-in the NT used only of superhuman power, whether of God or of the Devil
deceit, to deceive, delusion, error
into/for
of them/he
to have faith <-to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing)
a lie/whatever is not what it seems to be.

They believe a lie that leads not to salvation, so why not send them a strong delusion to bolster their believe in the lie, God hath from the beginning not chosen them for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13?

The terminology used says it will be "an effective working, superhuman power, driving them from the truth into a lie" Its not just a very strong feeling of unbelief that comes over them, the words used describe a complete disgust for the truth in return for complete desire(pleasure) for unrighteousness.

I am assuming that, based on the words used again, they will believe this to be the truth - not a lie. Those who do love the truth will see it for what it is, but I believe that this rift is what brings in the man of sin - then leads to the greatest*(worst) ever tribulation.

 

[Betty]

Nathan, there's an example in 1 Kings 22. I was just reading it, and the King wanted to hear good only. It kinds of reminds me of where Jesus said: Matthew 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

And also John ch. 6 Where Jesus spoke a hard saying that they couldn't grasp, so instead of trusting Him, they "went away and walked with Him no More."

So all these prophets come to the King of Israel, and they all prophecy all wonderful prophecies about a battle that they were going into. All of these prophets said that the King would be victorious. But Jehoshaphat asks the King to inquire of a prophet who wasn't among all of the King's prophets. The King say's: 1 Kings 22:8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

So the king goes with his own prophets, but Micaiah is called, but even when they call him, they want him to prophecy only good, they only want to hear what they want to hear.

1 Kings 22:12 And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the king's hand.
1 Kings 22:13 And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good.

Micaiah tell's them that he will only speak what the LORD tells him to speak.

1 Kings 22:15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
1 Kings 22:16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD?

1 Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
1 Kings 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?

This is going somewhere. But the account has to be considered.

The next few verses actually go into this quite well.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

King Ahab didn't want the truth, he only wanted to hear and would only accept what he wanted to hear. That was the result of it. I think it also shows that Ahab had a very low regard for the words of the Lord.

I mentioned John Ch. 6 and the "hard sayings," I like what Peter said when Jesus asked the Twelve if they would also go because of something that was hard for them to hear. Peter answered, "John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Micaiah didn't have an easy job...Two verses later, this is what happened.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1 Kings 22:24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?

Wow...

I'm sorry this is so long. It's difficult to show an example without showing most of the account.
It really shows that they didn't want the truth. They didn't have a love for the truth.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, there's an example in 1 Kings 22. I was just reading it, and the King wanted to hear good only. It kinds of reminds me of where Jesus said: Matthew 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

And also John ch. 6 Where Jesus spoke a hard saying that they couldn't grasp, so instead of trusting Him, they "went away and walked with Him no More."

So all these prophets come to the King of Israel, and they all prophecy all wonderful prophecies about a battle that they were going into. All of these prophets said that the King would be victorious. But Jehoshaphat asks the King to inquire of a prophet who wasn't among all of the King's prophets. The King say's: 1 Kings 22:8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

So the king goes with his own prophets, but Micaiah is called, but even when they call him, they want him to prophecy only good, they only want to hear what they want to hear.

1 Kings 22:12 And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the king's hand.
1 Kings 22:13 And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good.

Micaiah tell's them that he will only speak what the LORD tells him to speak.

1 Kings 22:15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
1 Kings 22:16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD?

1 Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
1 Kings 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?

This is going somewhere. But the account has to be considered.

The next few verses actually go into this quite well.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

King Ahab didn't want the truth, he only wanted to hear and would only accept what he wanted to hear. That was the result of it. I think it also shows that Ahab had a very low regard for the words of the Lord. Micah

I mentioned John Ch. 6 and the "hard sayings," I like what Peter said when Jesus asked the Twelve if they would also go because of something that was hard for them to hear. Peter answered, "John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Micaiah didn't have an easy job...Two verses later, this is what happened.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1 Kings 22:24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?

Wow...

I'm sorry this is so long. It's difficult to show an example without showing most of the account.

I hadn't read that in a long time, but I do think it is descriptive of the delusion.

We know God cannot lie nor tempt anyone so He does use evil spirits to do what they naturally want to do.

That account shows a specific instance just like the delusion will be. Except in that case it was to fully persuade the king, where as in the rebellion it will be to persuade many.

 

[Nathan]

I'm gonna catch slack for this.

False rapture. A seemingly resurrection of dead bodies(no, not zombies).

Look at the context. Paul says "don't be deceived". "By a spirit, spoken word, or letter".

He was foretelling of a deception.

Thoughts?

 

[Nathan]

I figured I should explain myself a little better.

The context Paul tells of this "delusion" in is when he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead(asleep), when Christ returns. Our being gathered together with Him.

He talked about the gathering and day of Christ in 1 Thessalonians, but not of the "delusion". The context of the second letter revolves around some "lies" being told, which were "deceiving" in nature, that the resurrection(gathering) had already happened.

So Paul was laying out in more detail what would lead up to this - so they would have full assurance and not believe the lies. (verses 3-10)

Then Paul says "therefore" - because of these things that will happen - God sends them a strong delusion in order that they may believe all of it - "The Lie".

I do not know if this is indicating a global type of false resurrection, or what could be very much linked to what takes place in Revelation 13. The first "beast" had a mortal(deadly) wound that was healed. Could this be a seemingly raising from the dead? We know also after this is when the 'line in the sand' is drawn, where all who will not be saved(names written in the book) will worship it. No more faith is distributed past this point. So we know the rebellion has to take place at this time or before.

And we know that the second "beast" is what most would call the "Anti-Christ" and it is the one that performs great signs and wonders.

Also, we might get an 'idea' of this if we look back at Christ's foretelling of this time. Whats interesting about Matthew 24 is that Jesus lays out a 'time line' of sorts from verse 1-14. Then, He breaks in the middle, and gives some details and one warning that relates directly to what Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians.

Matthew 24:23-27
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look,he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice the parable of the 10 virgins. They did not take any more oil with them then what they needed. They had taken enough to get to a 'point', but when they realized the 'point' was not the actual event they needed to be, they understood they needed more oil. Then, you might miss it, the 5 foolish ones were 'deluded' into thinking they could go get some more oil and still make it back. It may seem like a crazy question to ask, but why wouldn't they have just followed the other 5?

Delusion makes people do crazy things.

Anyways, that's where my studying is taken me. Your thoughts?

 

[Nathan]

Looking again at Jesus words;

Matthew 24:23-27
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look,he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

"will arise" - egeirō -
to arouse, cause to rise

1. to arouse from sleep, to awake
   
   
2. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
   
   
3. to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
   
   
4. to raise up, produce, cause to appear
   
   1. to cause to appear, bring before the public
      
      
   2. to raise up, stir up, against one
      
      
   3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born
      
      
   4. of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect
      

The word used most often is used elsewhere in the physical sense. Not in the sense that they just come and perform great signs, but they will rise up - literally. From the dead?

Same word used for Jesus arising from the dead, and Lazarus. Also when He would heal the sick and seemingly dead ones - He would tell them to "arise".

Its not the same as when Peter said;

2 Peter 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Different words used. What Jesus was saying is a completely different type of 'appearing'.

 

[Betty]

I figured I should explain myself a little better.

The context Paul tells of this "delusion" in is when he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead(asleep), when Christ returns. Our being gathered together with Him.

He talked about the gathering and day of Christ in 1 Thessalonians, but not of the "delusion". The context of the second letter revolves around some "lies" being told, which were "deceiving" in nature, that the resurrection(gathering) had already happened.

So Paul was laying out in more detail what would lead up to this - so they would have full assurance and not believe the lies. (verses 3-10)

Then Paul says "therefore" - because of these things that will happen - God sends them a strong delusion in order that they may believe all of it - "The Lie".

I do not know if this is indicating a global type of false resurrection, or what could be very much linked to what takes place in Revelation 13. The first "beast" had a mortal(deadly) wound that was healed. Could this be a seemingly raising from the dead? We know also after this is when the 'line in the sand' is drawn, where all who will not be saved(names written in the book) will worship it. No more faith is distributed past this point. So we know the rebellion has to take place at this time or before.

And we know that the second "beast" is what most would call the "Anti-Christ" and it is the one that performs great signs and wonders.

Also, we might get an 'idea' of this if we look back at Christ's foretelling of this time. Whats interesting about Matthew 24 is that Jesus lays out a 'time line' of sorts from verse 1-14. Then, He breaks in the middle, and gives some details and one warning that relates directly to what Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians.

Matthew 24:23-27
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look,he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice the parable of the 10 virgins. They did not take any more oil with them then what they needed. They had taken enough to get to a 'point', but when they realized the 'point' was not the actual event they needed to be, they understood they needed more oil. Then, you might miss it, the 5 foolish ones were 'deluded' into thinking they could go get some more oil and still make it back. It may seem like a crazy question to ask, but why wouldn't they have just followed the other 5?

Delusion makes people do crazy things.

Anyways, that's where my studying is taken me. Your thoughts?

Good morning Nathan,

I love the way that you dig into the scriptures looking for answers. This is something that I'm also praying about. The "oil," in the word can go into all kinds of passages within the scriptures.

I want to say that the five wise virgins couldn't have given them of their oil, but the passage says that the five foolish asked, indicating that they could?

The response of the wise virgins indicated the same."go buy for yourselves, lest there isn't enough for both you and us."

Oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit in the scriptures, which is why I want to say that they couldn't have given the foolish virgins some of their oil.

Without oil, a lamp can't be lit, and when oil runs out the light goes out.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

There's a whole lot to consider with the entire parable.

 

[Chopper]

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

This delusion is going to be the most powerful delusion that has confronted God's special remnant of believers. Why? Because, if possible, the Elect (those preselected before the foundations of the world) would be deceived. I'm glad that is says "if possible" because I would be frightened if it said that the Elect of God could be deceived.

I see the importance of the Elect Bride of Christ Jesus as being not able to be deceived by these doctrine's of demons because that means that the Truth of Christ Jesus, they would always be protected, and the true Gospel would be a continual threat to the false teachings that Satan would introduce to God's special Elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."....I'm thinking that the "falling away first" is the result of....2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them (goats) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." In other words, the strong delusion was the cause of people who claim to be saved (goats), but are not. Their claim to Salvation was only talk. They will be easy prey for Satan....The fact that the delusion is God sent, His purpose is dividing the goats from His sheep.

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

This delusion is going to be the most powerful delusion that has confronted God's special remnant of believers. Why? Because, if possible, the Elect (those preselected before the foundations of the world) would be deceived. I'm glad that is says "if possible" because I would be frightened if it said that the Elect of God could be deceived.

I see the importance of the Elect Bride of Christ Jesus as being not able to be deceived by these doctrine's of demons because that means that the Truth of Christ Jesus, they would always be protected, and the true Gospel would be a continual threat to the false teachings that Satan would introduce to God's special Elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."....I'm thinking that the "falling away first" is the result of....2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them (goats) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." In other words, the strong delusion was the cause of people who claim to be saved (goats), but are not. Their claim to Salvation was only talk. They will be easy prey for Satan....The fact that the delusion is God sent, His purpose is dividing the goats from His sheep.

Right. That is another reason why I do believe Jesus is talking about the strong delusion in that passage.

There is a rabbit trail that could be run down here, but the falling away is most definitely an "apostasia" which is a forsaking of the truth. Its not a casual claim to be saved then drift away type thing we see every day in the church. It is a clear and concise firm rebuking and rejection of the truth of God. That is also clear from the previous verse where its said they "did not love the truth".

It most definitely where we see the clear distinction between the final elect and the wicked. Those who have the mark of God and those who have the mark of the anti-christ. Destiny is most definitely sealed from this point forward.

One thing we must remember Chopper, is you and I do not see the same way on how someone is protected from this deception. We both would definitely say it is God Himself who keeps us safe, but I will assert that it is Him who keeps us safe through faith. I firmly believe this will be the final 'test' for the ones who have received faith - the faithful.

Jesus did not have to say what He did about the elect not being deceived if it were not possible for some who have faith to be deceived. In other words, the elect will not be deceived because they are in Christ - their faith is living and not dead. Jesus did not say these things just to be like "man, you gotta understand these elect guys are lucky to be escaping this".

Point being, Jesus was not saying don't worry about this because I got the elect covered - He was saying don't worry about it, because if your faith is real, your one of the elect, and you will not be deceived because you know better; see, I have told you these things before it happens. If it was not possible to deceive some, who have known the truth, then Jesus would not have followed these versus up with;

Matthew 24:26
So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look,he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

If it were not possible, to deceive those who have come to faith - then there would not be a command to "do not" - but an assurance of "you will not".

Reason I make this point is that whatever the delusion is, those not grounded in the truth - in love with the truth of God - will be deceived. Every last single person. Paul knew about the elect, who they are. Yet he did not write that God will send them strong delusion because they were not elect, but rather because they do not love the truth. There will be a great many who truly believe they are "elect" who will be deceived - who think because they are elect they cannot be deceived. See what I mean? Its a strong delusion, not a small little thought that enters someones mind. Its serious.

There will be people who believe it who honestly think its right, and that they are right for believing it. The people who crucified Christ honestly thought they were doing good in the sight of God. Paul, when he was hunting believers down, honestly thought he was serving God.

People walk away from churches every day for many reasons; bored, tired, angry, sad, etc. That's not what the "rebellion" will be. It will be the equivalent of what satan did and a third of the angles. That is the terminology used here. Do you think that satan understood what he was doing was that futile? No, he whole heartily believed that he could be god. Think about it. An being in the very presence of God, who saw God, who knew God - and he decided he could take His place? Are we that haughty to think that we could not be deceived because of a moment in time - a prayer we said - a feeling we felt - a thought we thought?

The elect will not be deceived because they will see it coming. Its impossible for them to be deceived because they will know it for what it is. And so it will prove that they are the elect.

 

[ezrider]

Matthew 6:22-23
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Part of the delusion, or of those deluded would thinking themselves to be walking in the light, when they are actually walking in darkness.

I think there is a scripture somewhere that mentions walking under a lesser light. The Law is this lesser light, and many are drawn to it, but the law itself provides no light, yet in it we can see the reflection of the light. In this the Law is like the moon, in that it is clearly seen in the darkness, and many glory in its light, but its light is only seen in darkness, and is only a reflection of the true light.

And as in nature with our human eyes, in the midst of darkness we can look at and see the light of the moon. But when the sun has arisen we can perceive the light, but we can not look at the sun like we can the moon, lest our eyes become blind.

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 6:22-23
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Part of the delusion, or of those deluded would thinking themselves to be walking in the light, when they are actually walking in darkness.

I think there is a scripture somewhere that mentions walking under a lesser light. The Law is this lesser light, and many are drawn to it, but the law itself provides no light, yet in it we can see the reflection of the light. In this the Law is like the moon, in that it is clearly seen in the darkness, and many glory in its light, but its light is only seen in darkness, and is only a reflection of the true light.

And as in nature with our human eyes, in the midst of darkness we can look at and see the light of the moon. But when the sun has arisen we can perceive the light, but we can not look at the sun like we can the moon, lest our eyes become blind.

That is an excellent analogy. I can see it in every "type" of believer. Some walk away because they like the darkness. Some walk away because they are tired of the light being so bright. Some walk away because they think they can carry the light with them. Some walk away because the lesser light looks easier.

But the ones who rebel, who are strongly deluded, I think they will be the ones who truly think they have the light and have never seen anything brighter - then all of a sudden, they will see a 'seemingly' brighter light and think that must be the right one.

 

[ezrider]

And we know that the second "beast" is what most would call the "Anti-Christ" and it is the one that performs great signs and wonders.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that the delusion would be centered on Christ, because He was made the chief cornerstone as well as a stumbling block. Perhaps we stumble at the Word and are fed a strong delusion when we look to the scriptures that would reveal to us the "Anti-Christ."

It is amazing what happens to understanding the scriptures when we start looking for Christ both first and last.

 

[ezrider]

That is an excellent analogy. I can see it in every "type" of believer. Some walk away because they like the darkness. Some walk away because they are tired of the light being so bright. Some walk away because they think they can carry the light with them. Some walk away because the lesser light looks easier.

But the ones who rebel, who are strongly deluded, I think they will be the ones who truly think they have the light and have never seen anything brighter - then all of a sudden, they will see a 'seemingly' brighter light and think that must be the right one.

Light and darkness, strong delusion, sleeping and rebelling. I did a bible study not too long ago in a thread called I Thirst. Perhaps it fits in with your OP in some way.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/i-thirst.68397/

 

[Nathan]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that the delusion would be centered on Christ, because He was made the chief cornerstone as well as a stumbling block. Perhaps we stumble at the Word and are fed a strong delusion when we look to the scriptures that would reveal to us the "Anti-Christ."

It is amazing what happens to understanding the scriptures when we start looking for Christ both first and last.

I don't doubt that some will stumble at getting a 'mental image' of what the anti-christ will be like, and then assume its not him in the end. Thanks to major motion pictures and books there are plenty of "images" of him around.......

But at the same time, there is no doubt the strong delusion will be something that effects all of Christianity to the point of crossing denominational lines and all. I fully believe that the only way to know what it is, when it happens, is to have a love of the truth - not the truth as we see it, but the truth as we know God see's it.

I think there is something specific there that shouldn't be missed. The Holy Spirit was given to us to guide us in all truth. It would make complete sense then that those who have the Spirit in them would not be deceived, but those void of it will be. No amount of head knowledge of God, or Biblical studies, or good feelings about something, or sincere belief about something - will replace the power of God's Spirit in you in regards to truth.

The strong delusion comes on those who do not love the truth. They may love 'a' truth, but not the truth.

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

This delusion is going to be the most powerful delusion that has confronted God's special remnant of believers. Why? Because, if possible, the Elect (those preselected before the foundations of the world) would be deceived. I'm glad that is says "if possible" because I would be frightened if it said that the Elect of God could be deceived.

I see the importance of the Elect Bride of Christ Jesus as being not able to be deceived by these doctrine's of demons because that means that the Truth of Christ Jesus, they would always be protected, and the true Gospel would be a continual threat to the false teachings that Satan would introduce to God's special Elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."....I'm thinking that the "falling away first" is the result of....2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them (goats) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." In other words, the strong delusion was the cause of people who claim to be saved (goats), but are not. Their claim to Salvation was only talk. They will be easy prey for Satan....The fact that the delusion is God sent, His purpose is dividing the goats from His sheep.

Right. That is another reason why I do believe Jesus is talking about the strong delusion in that passage.

There is a rabbit trail that could be run down here, but the falling away is most definitely an "apostasia" which is a forsaking of the truth. Its not a casual claim to be saved then drift away type thing we see every day in the church. It is a clear and concise firm rebuking and rejection of the truth of God. That is also clear from the previous verse where its said they "did not love the truth".

It most definitely where we see the clear distinction between the final elect and the wicked. Those who have the mark of God and those who have the mark of the anti-christ. Destiny is most definitely sealed from this point forward.

One thing we must remember Chopper, is you and I do not see the same way on how someone is protected from this deception. We both would definitely say it is God Himself who keeps us safe, but I will assert that it is Him who keeps us safe through faith. I firmly believe this will be the final 'test' for the ones who have received faith - the faithful.

Jesus did not have to say what He did about the elect not being deceived if it were not possible for some who have faith to be deceived. In other words, the elect will not be deceived because they are in Christ - their faith is living and not dead. Jesus did not say these things just to be like "man, you gotta understand these elect guys are lucky to be escaping this".

Point being, Jesus was not saying don't worry about this because I got the elect covered - He was saying don't worry about it, because if your faith is real, your one of the elect, and you will not be deceived because you know better; see, I have told you these things before it happens. If it was not possible to deceive some, who have known the truth, then Jesus would not have followed these versus up with;

Matthew 24:26
So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look,he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

If it were not possible, to deceive those who have come to faith - then there would not be a command to "do not" - but an assurance of "you will not".

Reason I make this point is that whatever the delusion is, those not grounded in the truth - in love with the truth of God - will be deceived. Every last single person. Paul knew about the elect, who they are. Yet he did not write that God will send them strong delusion because they were not elect, but rather because they do not love the truth. There will be a great many who truly believe they are "elect" who will be deceived - who think because they are elect they cannot be deceived. See what I mean? Its a strong delusion, not a small little thought that enters someones mind. Its serious.

There will be people who believe it who honestly think its right, and that they are right for believing it. The people who crucified Christ honestly thought they were doing good in the sight of God. Paul, when he was hunting believers down, honestly thought he was serving God.

People walk away from churches every day for many reasons; bored, tired, angry, sad, etc. That's not what the "rebellion" will be. It will be the equivalent of what satan did and a third of the angles. That is the terminology used here. Do you think that satan understood what he was doing was that futile? No, he whole heartily believed that he could be god. Think about it. An being in the very presence of God, who saw God, who knew God - and he decided he could take His place? Are we that haughty to think that we could not be deceived because of a moment in time - a prayer we said - a feeling we felt - a thought we thought?

The elect will not be deceived because they will see it coming. Its impossible for them to be deceived because they will know it for what it is. And so it will prove that they are the elect.

One thing I had forgot about was Jesus' last great teaching before His crucifixion recorded by John.

John 16:1-4
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you.

I think often times we only think of Jesus meaning this to the disciples themselves. If you take out the chapter and verses though, you'll see that after He gets done with this teaching He then prays to God. And in that prayer He directly says that He is not only praying for the disciples, but for all that will believe in Him through their words.

Point being, number one, there is an 'hour' coming when whoever kills a believer will be thinking that he is actually doing God a favor. Think about it even right now. How 'easy' is it to think that certain 'groups of people' should be killed because of what they do - because of what they believe? It happens on both sides of the fence........

Number two, these are not run of the mill fake sheep who drift in and out of the church. They are going to be devout people, who turn their backs on the absolute truth, embrace an absolute lie, and do so to the point of thinking they are doing God a favor.

I think the immediate thought, of most people, is that these will be those people who we see right now doing things like this in the name of God. While I do not doubt they are apart of the whole ordeal - they cannot be the ones talked about. Why?

Because this is a falling away from our faith. A rebellion against our God. That means they have to have once believed in the right faith and the right God. See what I mean? This is going to be coming from people who call themselves 'Christians'.

I think the modern age has duped us into thinking that this will be like terrorists attacking and such. Why do you think it will be so delusional? To think that a person who calls themselves a 'follower of Christ' could be so horrible is almost unthinkable......almost that is.

What about the Inquisitions? They sure happened. It does make a person think.

 

[Betty]

One thing I had forgot about was Jesus' last great teaching before His crucifixion recorded by John.

John 16:1-4
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you.

I think often times we only think of Jesus meaning this to the disciples themselves. If you take out the chapter and verses though, you'll see that after He gets done with this teaching He then prays to God. And in that prayer He directly says that He is not only praying for the disciples, but for all that will believe in Him through their words.

Point being, number one, there is an 'hour' coming when whoever kills a believer will be thinking that he is actually doing God a favor. Think about it even right now. How 'easy' is it to think that certain 'groups of people' should be killed because of what they do - because of what they believe? It happens on both sides of the fence........

Number two, these are not run of the mill fake sheep who drift in and out of the church. They are going to be devout people, who turn their backs on the absolute truth, embrace an absolute lie, and do so to the point of thinking they are doing God a favor.

I think the immediate thought, of most people, is that these will be those people who we see right now doing things like this in the name of God. While I do not doubt they are apart of the whole ordeal - they cannot be the ones talked about. Why?

Because this is a falling away from our faith. A rebellion against our God. That means they have to have once believed in the right faith and the right God. See what I mean? This is going to be coming from people who call themselves 'Christians'.

I think the modern age has duped us into thinking that this will be like terrorists attacking and such. Why do you think it will be so delusional? To think that a person who calls themselves a 'follower of Christ' could be so horrible is almost unthinkable......almost that is.

What about the Inquisitions? They sure happened. It does make a person think.

For Christians to reach the point where they are killing fellow Christians and thinking that they are doing God a service, there would have to be a serious level of ignorance of the scriptures. It has actually happened before though, I read a book several years ago called, "Foxes book of Martyrs," that goes into a lot of history where things like that have occurred, so it's not a far stretch by any means.

I've also met a few people who have told me that they, "use to be Christians," and there's a level of bitterness in some that I don't think what you say is far fetched.

However, without jumping to conclusions but considering the possibilities. The passage that you referenced says, "They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. "Whoever kills you," will think he is offering service to God."

There's a lot of false gods within the scriptures, When Elijah stood against Ahab and Jezebel's 450 prophets of Ba'al, and witnessed before Israel as they had been deceived and were following Ba'al. God always sent prophets to turn the hearts of the people back to Him and to preach repentance, Many of those prophets were put to death throughout the scriptures within Israel. In some cases scriptures were completely being ignored. Just like in the case we discussed earlier in the thread where the King of Israel didn't want to hear the truth but wanted to hear good concerning himself.

Also, I saw a video on you-tube where the Pope said that Islam follows the same God as Christians. As untrue as his statement is, I've met a lot of people who agree with him.

Israel itself was almost always battling the nations around them. The Philistines at one point even took the ark of the covenant after a battle. The ark of the covenant was set up in their temple next to their false god "Dagon." God even demonstrated His power to the Philistines by having their god fall face down in front of the ark so that they would know His power.

Throughout the bible the nations around Israel had no love for them, (pretty much the same today,) and if they had the means to go in and slaughter them, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hesitate.

It always comes back down to lack of understanding, lack of knowledge, lack of seeking God with all our hearts mind and strength, where leaven is able to enter in and we know what happens with that.

Sadly, I've seen several stories of Christians suffering and being slaughtered in Islamic nations, and some of the means they use are similar to biblical prophecy. (Such as be-headings in Revelations.)

Where Christians are concerned, when His word is ignored, (This is a principle contained throughout the scriptures,) and corruption enters in God moves away, not closer. Remember in the wilderness, the temple was set up outside of the camp. God doesn't dwell with sin. (Exodus 22)

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

The passage in Amos doesn't say that there will be a famine of the word, but it says that the famine will be of "hearing the words of the LORD."

I know that many view the scriptures as being separate from a relationship with and in Christ, but I'd say the scriptures tie directly to a relationship with Christ.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

You mentioned that some passages are like God speaking directly to us. I agree completely. There's nothing that God has ever said that isn't alive. His word is living. There's nothing that God ever told any man to write or to speak that hasn't taken place or won't take place, because God's word is living. And they are written.

A really cool study is one on the many times that God told different people to "write it in a book." From Genesis to Revelation.

Have you ever met a Christian who doesn't believe in the bible? I actually have, and when you discuss things with them, they are so out of line with what God's word says that it's almost impossible to even reason with them. They claim to be Christians, but don't want the instruction God gave us, His word.

At any rate, we are required to use wisdom in every matter. God's word is much more wise than I am, so I always try to seek out examples in the Holy writ.

Come to think of it, a person saying he or she is a Christian doesn't actually make that person a Christian. A few weeks ago I had someone tell me that he was a Christian while he was speaking against God's word. I asked him. "Is Jesus of Nazareth your Lord and Savior." he danced around the question, but I persisted to ask him, and finally he answered, "no."

That being said, I don't believe that actual Christians will be the ones who persecute, put believers out of the "synagogues"or kill others.

 

[misbehaved11]

Hi Nathan.... I took the liberty to copy and paste some of your sentences:


It also comes from within the 'realms' of Christianity. Not an outside belief - not saying what you suggest is an outside belief.

This makes very good sense considering the word "truth". The Gospel is truth, but if it were just the Gospel I am pretty sure Paul would have said that. So it encompasses all "truth", which is found in the Word of God.

So, the "false" or "lie" is everything that is opposite of the truth.

So 'love of the truth' is a key element here in the deception and before the strong delusion. So the strong delusion seems to be associated with the truth. Being the opposite of it, which is a lie and what is false.

The strong delusion comes on those who do not love the truth. They may love 'a' truth, but not the truth.

---------------------------------------------------------
It also comes from within the 'realms' of Christianity. Not an outside belief - not saying what you suggest is an outside belief.
- My opinion: The strong delusion comes to all, regardless of faith (as you mention later).

This makes very good sense considering the word "truth". The Gospel is truth, but if it were just the Gospel I am pretty sure Paul would have said that. So it encompasses all "truth", which is found in the Word of God.
- My opinion: Truth: What is truth: John 14:6

So, the "false" or "lie" is everything that is opposite of the truth.
- My opinion: So, the 'false' or 'lie' is everything that is opposite of the truth. (John 14:6)

So 'love of the truth' is a key element here in the deception and before the strong delusion. So the strong delusion seems to be associated with the truth. Being the opposite of it, which is a lie and what is false.
- So 'love of the truth' (John 14:6), is a key element...... and the strong delusion is the opposite of it, which is a lie and what is false.

The strong delusion comes on those who do not love the truth. They may love 'a' truth, but not the truth.
- The strong delusion comes on those who do not love the truth. They may love 'a' truth, but not the truth. (Whose names were not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.). Revelation 13:8; John 14:6

And so to continue: how can anyone tell anyone apart from anyone if everyone looks alike?

2 Thessalonians 2:12
"That they all might be **damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

damned: 2919. krinó : decree, determine, judge: http://biblehub.com/thayers/2919.htm

So a difference between the 'lie' and the 'truth' is how that person views unrighteousness.

And when a 'Godly' man or woman speaks that unrighteousness and Righteousness are the same in God's eyes, it can cause many to believe the 'lie' which will enable them to continue in their pleasures of unrighteousness thinking that God is more than fine with it.


God is not telling you that you cannot sin. God is telling you that the wages of sin is death. God is not sin nor death and so God does not reward, or pay the wages with sin or death. God pays the wages with Everlasting Life.

wage: a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, especially to a manual or unskilled worker.

 

[misbehaved11]

The wages; a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, especially to a manual or unskilled worker, of sin, is death...

God is asking all to not die but live... That is all...

John 8:24
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

To believe the 'lie' or to believe the 'Truth'?

1 John 4:3
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

Every spirit.... Every person... Every life..... Regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, sexual preference, gender identity, socio-economic standing, job title, profession of faith, family members.... Every Body that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, bodily form, is not of God and has that spirit of 'antichrist' within them....

I can say that I'm a christian but still say that I don't believe Jesus Christ had come in the flesh in bodily form.... How? A myth made up... Even the Jews, who do not believe that Jesus Christ was/is The Messiah, know that He came in the flesh in bodily form...

Hating Him means you believe He was here.. He may not have left nice memories but at least you believe and know He was here.. You can't hate something that was never even part of your life...

So to hate Him would mean that you were more of God than those that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God..."

So-

Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God.

And/But here is something strange:

Jude 1:4
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Acts 20:28-30
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

How are these men claiming that Jesus Christ had never come in the flesh? Do they profess 'A' Jesus but not 'The' Jesus Christ?

Is it possible for someone to say, 'I believe in Jesus but I don't believe in Jesus Christ'?

If someone should come in among you and says 'I believe in Jesus' and you in turn say, 'Oh, you believe upon Christ Jesus' and he turn his head and disagrees, he is one on whose lips is no knowledge.

There could be false Jesuses and false Christs, but can there be false Jesus Christs?

 

[Nathan]

I was listening to the radio and someone was talking about how they were confounded how most believers don't read the Bible.

Then it dawned on me. How can you love something you spend no time with? Ever wonder why David was so close to God?

I have been there before. I spent more time reading books about the Bible than reading the Bible itself.

It wasn't until I stopped reading 'other books' and spent more time in the Bible that I really fell in love with the truth.

I'm not saying other books are evil. But it was something that sparked a thought about this thread.