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The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

childeye
I said this....
Deborah13 said:
Adam took things into his own hands, rather than trusting God.
Semantics are a problem for me here. As pertains to the scenario that Adam ate so as to die rather than live without Eve, I could just as well say Adam trusted God in believing that Eve would die so he ate also in suicide. Your point seems to be that Adam should have trusted in God that he could yet right the wrong, which would be in contradiction to trusting that Eve would die and be gone forever. With complete respect, are you suggesting that Adam should have known that God could make a new Eve or raise her from the dead?

Which reminds me that Sarah and Abraham took it upon themselves to get Abraham a son, Ishmael. That didn't work out so well.
True, and this is a clear intent in scripture of trying to make the promise of God come true through works of men. This is stipulated in scripture as an allegory for the Old and New Testament. Galatians 4:24. Are you saying that somehow Adam's desire to eat and die is pertaining to this?
And Rebecca and Jacob knew Jacob was to inherit, but instead of waiting on God to provide the way, they lied and deceived. Look what that mistake caused Jacob to go through.
Exactly what scripture says God that didn't intend all of this to happen the way it did? I've always thought so because of this scripture and for other reasons. Romans 9:12. I'm not sure it's been established that Adam took things into his own hands, even because we are only speculating that he ate for the sake of preferring to die with Eve.
 
Well Mark T, for what it's worth, I think your take on it is plausible. Your take doesn't make Adam a bad person which I also want to believe.

Certainly it was a warning, and the way it is said at least in the translation we see, it appears as if God knows the day will come when Adam eats. The day you eat you shall surely die sounds prophetic.

Also, it makes sense that Satan used the woman to get to the man. Moreover he used the man to get to God. In other words, since Adam is made in the image of God, Satan could raise doubts in heaven about God Himself, through tarnishing Adam. If this is Satan's intention, then to say Adam was disobedient and unfaithful deliberately, would work unto that end. Or perhaps Satan was jealous of Adam being content in his lowly station under God, while Satan was not content in his high station under God. Therefore Satan wanted Adam to know he was a lowly created being. Satan tends to want to be worshipped as God. Was Adam bait for the devil? Job 41:2.

Still, it puzzles me as to what the woman said, but scripture does not say.

It doesn't matter what she said.

I think what happened in the garden was a blow to God's plan for a kingdom, making it all but impossible, so that God almost destroyed everything made of flesh in the waters of the flood. I think Satan's plan is to take down God's children and establish his own kingdom.

I guess Satan doesn't know all things are possible with God.
 
With complete respect, are you suggesting that Adam should have known that God could make a new Eve or raise her from the dead?
True, and this is a clear intent in scripture of trying to make the promise of God come true through works of men. This is stipulated in scripture as an allegory for the Old and New Testament. Galatians 4:24. Are you saying that somehow Adam's desire to eat and die is pertaining to this?
My point is that in all these cases, people went out on their own, doing what they thought was the right way to do something. In each case bad things came out of not waiting on God, not trusting God.
Exactly what scripture says God that didn't intend all of this to happen the way it did?
Thou shall not lie, Thou shall not steal, for just a couple. Jacob and Rebecca
Sarah shall have a son. Sarah wanted a son, she decided to get one through Hagar, rather than waiting on God's promise.
I don't think lying, stealing, and lack of faith are God's ways, do you? He says in scripture that they are not. I see that by doing those things they brought problems on themselves.
I don't see anywhere in scripture that says God caused them to do those things. Paul uses Hagar and Sarah as a metaphor for law and grace and so something about justification and law and grace. To me it says that God chose how man will be justified and it isn't at Mt Sinai.
 
My point is that in all these cases, people went out on their own, doing what they thought was the right way to do something. In each case bad things came out of not waiting on God, not trusting God.
Yes I know, it's just that I don't think Adam and the fruit has any comparable significance in line with Sarah/Hagar and Jacob/Esau. Sure the issue of trust is significant, but that can be said about every act of disobedience.
Thou shall not lie, Thou shall not steal, for just a couple.
These are commandments that God uses to expose sin. This does not show that things aren't unfolding as God intended.


Jacob and Rebecca
Sarah shall have a son. Sarah wanted a son, she decided to get one through Hagar, rather than waiting on God's promise.
I don't think lying, stealing, and lack of faith are God's ways, do you?
Of course lying stealing and lack of faith are not God's ways, but Sarah isn't God, she's just an elderly woman who feels her time to bear children is passed.

I don't see anywhere in scripture that says God caused them to do those things.
I beg to differ, Romans 9:11 and indeed all of scripture is saying God has done everything according to His purpose. Isaiah 46:10.
 
It doesn't matter what she said.

I think what happened in the garden was a blow to God's plan for a kingdom, making it all but impossible, so that God almost destroyed everything made of flesh in the waters of the flood. I think Satan's plan is to take down God's children and establish his own kingdom.

I guess Satan doesn't know all things are possible with God.
God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. Satan is just another created being. When I read scripture, Satan is just a tool for a greater purpose. Revelation 20:3.
 
You don't say blind rebellion, you say blinding rebellion, as in the rebellion blinds.
Actually, I didn't intend to mean it as either causing the other - but rather the Corruption that invaded them causing these both. Sin, that now has begun to dwell in man's flesh, causes both the blindness to the truth as well as rebellion against God's will.

I would submit that blindness precedes rebellion. That blindness I am referring to is blind to Whom God is as a Person.
My position permits me to wholly agree with this too. There isn't rebellion without a blindness to the truth. It's just that I also see blindness to the truth as an act of rebellion.

I'm saying the trigger for all sin is a false image of god.
It is so. It's just that I'm adding that the true image of God could still be retained within that person - but which is suppressed and blinded to - therein operating on a false image of God. For on judgement day, all such blinding veils will be taken away and each will get convicted of the truth(almost everything about God) which they'd find they already had inside them.

I'm also differentiating between Adam and Eve when they're hypothetically questioned after their corruption as to what they believed about God's command - Eve would have said she'd genuinely believed God lied when He said they'd die, therein operating on a false image of God - and Adam would have said he didn't think about it at all though if he'd thought about it he'd have conceded God was telling the truth, but nonetheless he didn't think about God and therein operated on the false image of a non-existent god.
 
Why do you think that Adam couldn't have chosen to obey?
Where is justice here if there is scope for at least one individual to have even a possibility to choose correctly in the garden scenario and to be denied that?
If one man can obey, so can anyone else. Is it then just to conclude anyone in sinful flesh as if they were guilty of the same disobedience too, when they could have chosen to obey in the garden and lived without any of these consequences? Is it just that some/many who might have chosen not to be sinners in the garden, to be made sinners by one man's disobedience(Rom 5:19), especially in light of Eze 18:20? The only way to reconcile it is in the case that all men would inevitably choose to disobey in that scenario.

Why do you believe God could not have had a people for Himself if Adam had not sinned? He said go forth and multiply. Couldn't Adam and Eve have done that in the garden?
God knew His creation and knew that eventually man would not choose correctly. Because man is not God. Man would need a Redeemer and a Lord...
Why do I believe Adam and Eve couldn't have done that in the garden - because I believe just as you do that man is not God - and man apart from God cannot resist corruption - and that man needs God to overcome and resist such corruption - which is what I've been saying all along. If both of us agree on the very same starting points, why is there a difference in our conclusions?

Secondly, if and that's the 'if' you yourself deny, Adam had not sinned and they'd gone forth and multiplied - God's purposes are still not met. For God purposed to not just have a people, but a people in Christ - but these are still in the flesh, not yet born of the Spirit with the mind of Christ - and in that God's purposes are thwarted by the self-righteous works of the flesh that we all know in reality cannot be self-righteous. God knows we'll never obey by our Self/flesh - which is what He shows us, before regenerating us in the spirit to work His righteousness in us, causing us to obey.

It is my understanding that God is in the business of restoration. When one is saved what are they being restored to? Is it the condition and relationship to God that Adam had before the fall?
It is restoration in the sense of reversing the effects of the fall - but to think that God is limiting it to just the scenario before the fall, that's equating the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit to the creative work done initially - but the flesh is not the same as the spirit, the former is corruptible while the latter is incorruptible, the former works out its own will and actions while the latter has God working out His will and actions in it(Php 2:13). A new creature is made, not a restoration of the old creature.

You seem to think that what man does, does not have anything to do with what God does.
Of course not. It is because God has factored in all that man does and can do, that none of what man does affects God's purposeful works.

You believe you were saved by an irresistible grace. So why are you not Always able to resist sin?
Yes, I was saved by irresistible grace. And it is by such irresistible grace that the deeds of the flesh are mortified - and the process of sanctification includes showing me this entire process instead of just the final result. I am given to see how my flesh lusts against the spirit and brings forth evil(Gal 5:17), to then appreciate the irresistible grace that is given to overcome this flesh. There is a time coming when all flesh shall pass away and I will be given this continuous irresistible grace to Always resist corruption in the eternal Kingdom of God.
And how do you answer your own question? Why do you think you, who are able to resist grace now, will suddenly never ever choose to resist grace or choose to sin in the eternal kingdom of God?

Secondly, if grace is resistible, who is doing the resisting - the answer can only be my flesh. But what is grace given for, if not to overcome this flesh? What sense is there in giving B to overcome A when A can resist B - we should be giving something stronger than A, which A cannot resist, in order to overcome A - else the entire exercise is in futility and it could just as well have been no grace being given, if it's anyway ineffectual.
 
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Sure the issue of trust is significant, but that can be said about every act of disobedience.
So why not Adam's?
These are commandments that God uses to expose sin. This does not show that things aren't unfolding as God intended.
So you believe God caused them to disobey Him?

I said, "I don't see anywhere in scripture that says God caused them to do those things."
I beg to differ, Romans 9:11 and indeed all of scripture is saying God has done everything according to His purpose. Isaiah 46:10.
I agree that what God does, He does according to His purpose. That is only logical, why would God do something that is not according to His purpose? :chin
But does God cause everything to happen? Nope.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
 
God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. Satan is just another created being. When I read scripture, Satan is just a tool for a greater purpose. Revelation 20:3.

Nevertheless, God allowed it, he allowed Satan to tempt man, and the flesh was weak. Maybe it was a test. Maybe God was testing man. Note God did not create man to live forever. He put man in the garden where both trees were available to man, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Then he drove man out of the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever.
 
When threads go way off topic it is a clue the thread has died... Seems this one is way off topic... this leaves staff with a couple options... Close it or move it... So off to The Lounge with this.... reba
 
My position permits me to wholly agree with this too. There isn't rebellion without a blindness to the truth. It's just that I also see blindness to the truth as an act of rebellion.
Ah, as in when presented with the Truth, one rebels out of ignorance for the sake of maintaining that ignorance? A wanton ignorance as in loving the darkness over the Light? John 3:19.

I'm also differentiating between Adam and Eve when they're hypothetically questioned after their corruption as to what they believed about God's command - Eve would have said she'd genuinely believed God lied when He said they'd die, therein operating on a false image of God - and Adam would have said he didn't think about it at all though if he'd thought about it he'd have conceded God was telling the truth, but nonetheless he didn't think about God and therein operated on the false image of a non-existent god.
God did question them somewhat. Personally, I don't think Eve would say she'd genuinely believed God lied before eating. I doubt she knew what a lie is or that it is evil. All illusionists depend upon slight of hand. They get you to see what one hand is doing so as not to see the other.

Satan simply contested what God had said, just as he did to God Himself concerning Job. Eve was then in the position to argue a point without any knowledge about it. Satan had only implied that God was a liar, which as I said she doesn't know what a liar is. Therefore she was considering the veracity of the serpent's statement on the basis of looking at the tree, seeing that the fruit was good for food and that the tree was beautiful and desirable for wisdom. Genesis 3:6. Did Eve even know what a lie was?

As for Adam, we don't know what Eve said to him, so it is purely speculative. People use 1 Timothy 2:14 to conclude Adam knew full well what he was doing. Having been shown by the Holy Ghost how Satan has played me like a fiddle, I don't accept that as conclusive.
 
When threads go way off topic it is a clue the thread has died... Seems this one is way off topic... this leaves staff with a couple options... Close it or move it... So off to The Lounge with this.... reba
Respectfully Reba, the current conversation is about freewill which is a foundational stumbling block of reformed doctrines. Martin Luther's book bondage of the will. Arminians and Calvinists, etc...We are engaged with whether Adam was deceived or if he volunteered to sin.
 
childeye, Seems some one always wishes to question or challenge the moderation.. respectfully or not... You see a number of the post while in the A&T did not comply with the rules for the A&T forum... Some one else would have complained had i edit or deleted those posts... So to allow the discussion to continue i just moved it...

To the other part of your post...
This Scripture seems pertinent ..
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
So why not Adam's?
That's a valid point as I have said earlier. But we don't know what Eve said to Adam. Moreover, it is likely that God has not revealed this for a reason. To elaborate further, how we judge others actions is a reflection of ourselves. It is a form of projecting ourselves through the judgment of others. For example, Jesus says forgive them they know not what they do, the sinners need a doctor etc...These are his righteous judgments which is the very reason I believe he is the son of God. John 8:15

So you believe God caused them to disobey Him?

I said, "I don't see anywhere in scripture that says God caused them to do those things."
Please keep in mind this is an issue of semantics. If someone discounted God so that they don't acknowledge Him as their goodness , that person by default would be devoid of the knowledge of God. Romans 1:24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves. This word gave is used in this manner from the blue letter bible lexicon.
  1. to give into the hands (of another)
  2. to give over into (one's) power or use
    1. to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
    2. to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
    3. to deliver up treacherously
      1. by betrayal to cause one to be taken
      2. to deliver one to be taught, moulded
  3. to commit, to commend
More corroborating scripture. Romans 7:14, John 8:34, Romans 9:21.

I agree that what God does, He does according to His purpose. That is only logical, why would God do something that is not according to His purpose? :chin
But does God cause everything to happen? Nope.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
This is a semantic issue. God is the Creator of all things including Evil. Isaiah 45:7. He forms the Light and creates darkness, for the purpose of understanding the value of the Light. This abomination attributed to the worship of Baal doesn't come into God's mind because He wouldn't conceive of such things since He forms the Light. To be direct, God doesn't jump into their bodies and cause them to burn their children in sacrifice to a false god.
 
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It is restoration in the sense of reversing the effects of the fall - but to think that God is limiting it to just the scenario before the fall, that's equating the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit to the creative work done initially - but the flesh is not the same as the spirit, the former is corruptible while the latter is incorruptible, the former works out its own will and actions while the latter has God working out His will and actions in it(Php 2:13). A new creature is made, not a restoration of the old creature.
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Renovation is a better word than restoration. My point was that Adam before he chose to disobey, was in a perfect spiritual relationship with God. He was literally living in the presence of God. We know that God created all things through Christ. And if anything, including man, are/will be restored, renovated, renewed, it is through Christ. He is the beginning and the end.
In context..
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
These scriptures say to me that God provides the grace and the power through His Holy Spirit for man to take action and work out his salvation. This is not a salvation of man's works, but a salvation that brings glory to God because they are God's works. But I don't see any indication here of 'irresistible grace'. Paul obviously is saying that there is are choices to be made.
Of course not. It is because God has factored in all that man does and can do, that none of what man does affects God's purposeful works.
I agree. God factored in if man obeys, I will plant/save, if he doesn't I will pluck up/reject. Once again, I don't see 'irresistible grace'.
to then appreciate the irresistible grace that is given to overcome this flesh. There is a time coming when all flesh shall pass away and I will be given this continuous irresistible grace to Always resist corruption in the eternal Kingdom of God.
And how do you answer your own question? Why do you think you, who are able to resist grace now, will suddenly never ever choose to resist grace or choose to sin in the eternal kingdom of God?
If we are saved we are already in the kingdom of God. But we have not been completely renewed to have the perfect mind of Christ. What is the mind of Christ? Jesus said He always did the Father's will. That was His mind set, your will Father not mine.
I see that my will is in my flesh/soul, His will is in my spirit. God is saving my soul to be transformed into the mind of Christ. Paul says that we do not know what we will be like but we will be like Him. He also says that we need to be saved in our entirety, body, soul, and spirit. Which means we will think like Him, the Son of Man, Your will Father, not mine.
There will be no evil in the Kingdom then, no tempter, accuser, roaring lion but now we take the kingdom by force. Jesus said, I stand at the door and knock, you open the door. We cannot do that alone, God gives us the grace and the power to do it, but we still have to do it. Anything worth having is worth fighting for. The Son of Man, fought the good fight and overcame, so that we can do the same.
What sense is there in giving B to overcome A when A can resist B - we should be giving something stronger than A, which A cannot resist, in order to overcome A - else the entire exercise is in futility and it could just as well have been no grace being given, if it's anyway ineffectual.
You will have to take that one up with God. I could only give my opinion, I can't point you to clear scripture. Maybe someone else can.
 
childeye, Seems some one always wishes to question or challenge the moderation.. respectfully or not... You see a number of the post while in the A&T did not comply with the rules for the A&T forum... Some one else would have complained had i edit or deleted those posts... So to allow the discussion to continue i just moved it...

To the other part of your post...
This Scripture seems pertinent ..
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Your job is not easy. So it is that in good faith, I should be grateful that you didn't end the thread. Thanks for the scripture.
 
Ah, as in when presented with the Truth, one rebels out of ignorance for the sake of maintaining that ignorance? A wanton ignorance as in loving the darkness over the Light? John 3:19.


God did question them somewhat. Personally, I don't think Eve would say she'd genuinely believed God lied before eating. I doubt she knew what a lie is or that it is evil. All illusionists depend upon slight of hand. They get you to see what one hand is doing so as not to see the other.

Satan simply contested what God had said, just as he did to God Himself concerning Job. Eve was then in the position to argue a point without any knowledge about it. Satan had only implied that God was a liar, which as I said she doesn't know what a liar is. Therefore she was considering the veracity of the serpent's statement on the basis of looking at the tree, seeing that the fruit was good for food and that the tree was beautiful and desirable for wisdom. Genesis 3:6. Did Eve even know what a lie was?

As for Adam, we don't know what Eve said to him, so it is purely speculative. People use 1 Timothy 2:14 to conclude Adam knew full well what he was doing. Having been shown by the Holy Ghost how Satan has played me like a fiddle, I don't accept that as conclusive.

According to Paul, Adam was not deceived, which is why I believe he didn't know. Also Paul only names Eve as the transgressor which tells me she caused the transgression; she caused Adam to sin. Adam never said he knew. All he said was Eve gave him the fruit. Gen. 3:12 I take Adam's words to be factually true. I don't see Adam blaming Eve.

So it's only blaming her if he knew. But I don't think he did. All he did was listen to her voice. Maybe she said something like, Eat this. it is good. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure Adam would not have eaten if he knew what it was he was eating.
 
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Adam was told by God not to eat 'that' fruit..before Eve was created...
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
 
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