The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

[childeye]

She was moved by her desire, the desire of the flesh, not by a false image of God, whatever that means. James 1:14,15

A false image of God is any imagery of Him that is not true. Just as if someone slandered you or promoted an errant and deprecating depiction concerning your motives. I agree the flesh lusts, but that is only after believing that God is keeping something away from us for a sinister purpose. If Eve had believed that God was keeping something from her for a good reason, there can be no lust.

Sorry. I don't agree. False words and false teachings can be planted, but I don't know what you mean by holding an image of God. Jesus was the image of God. We don't hold an image of God. We are conformed to the image of his Son. But even so, I am still me. I haven't changed. My dwelling changed, but aside from being free of sin and knowing a lot more than I did, I have not changed. Maybe it is because I am of God and God does not change. Jesus's character didn't change. The apostle's character did not change. Character does not change.

Yes Jesus is the True Image of God. If you believe Jesus the son is the same way as His Father is, then you hold this image of God to be true.

Of course Jesus' Character doesn't change, he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need to change, he is perfect as is. Of course the apostles changed, look at their testimony. You mean to tell me, you haven't changed since believing in the Christ? There is no Holy Spirit living in you causing you to change on the inside? 2 Corinthians 3:18,
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[childeye]

In terms of good and evil, and right and wrong, I would say it is learned. But then again, a moral character would be required to learn. It depends on what you mean by moral character. Do you mean a believing heart? A spirit of understanding? These are things we are born with.

Yes a believing heart is what I mean by faith. Hence a good moral character has faith and believes God is good, Loving and wise. I'm not sure what you mean by a spirit of understanding. Do you mean a person who understands or a person who is willing to understand?

In one respect, I have changed. I have become obedient to his word, where before, I did not know his word.

The change I am referring to for us, is from a carnal way of thinking to a spiritual way of thinking.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So when you say her character changed into a lust for more, are you saying she sinned even before she ate?

No, when I'm saying her character changed, I am saying she was at first content in her countenance and had want for nothing, even though she was not allowed to eat of the knowledge of good and evil. Then the devil spoke his lies, and as she considered his words her countenance changed and she was no longer content but lusted for the knowledge of good and evil. Satan's words clearly have something to do with that. All of Satan's words are slanderous to God.

I would say without the knowledge of good and evil, there is no understanding of evil, and therefore there is no sin.

That's like saying murder is okay if you don't know it's wrong. Whereas I would say, we were already created good without the knowledge of good and evil, and we would never contemplate murdering anyone. But we wouldn't know how to appreciate what that goodness is, because we wouldn't know what evil is in contrast to that goodness. Hence the knowledge of good and evil is the knowledge of what goodness is, in contrast to evil.

I think the simple fact is Eve would have believed whatever she was told.

I think that is most likely true. They had no knowledge of lies.

 

[childeye]

What you have is Eve pondering good and evil and deciding or accepting God is evil/a liar. I'm saying that's false, because she did not know good and evil.

We are going to end up arguing semantics. Of course she was pondering good and evil without even knowing what good and evil are. She was told a lie about God and this lie is an introduction of evil. She doesn't need to know what evil is to hear the lie. Nor does she need to understand how the lie deceives, to be deceived by it.

Also, we are born with our moral character.

I'd say Adam and Eve were created with a perfect moral character. I'd say that was corrupted by the lie about God and the subsequent eating of the knowledge of good and evil. We however inherit this sinful nature from Adam, which is why my grandchildren always wants the toy the other grandchild has, it doesn't matter which toy it is. Through belief in the Christ, we are changed, and our nature becomes one that finds it better to give than receive.

 

[MarkT]

We are going to end up arguing semantics. Of course she was pondering good and evil without even knowing what good and evil are. She was told a lie about God and this lie is an introduction of evil. She doesn't need to know what evil is to hear the lie. Nor does she need to understand how the lie deceives, to be deceived by it.


I'd say Adam and Eve were created with a perfect moral character. I'd say that was corrupted by the lie about God and the subsequent eating of the knowledge of good and evil. We however inherit this sinful nature from Adam, which is why my grandchildren always wants the toy the other grandchild has, it doesn't matter which toy it is. Through belief in the Christ, we are changed, and our nature becomes one that finds it better to give than receive.

If you don't know the difference, then what is there to ponder? Evil is good. Good is evil. Knowing good and evil, Eve would have something to ponder. Is the Serpent good or evil? But not knowing good and evil, what is there to ponder? Everything is good. God tells her she will die, so she is filled with fear. The Serpent removes the fear, and he opens the door to desire. Eve sees everything is good and she eats. 'the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; Genesis 3:6

I still don't know what you mean by moral character. I take it you mean good, as in Adam and Eve were created good. The Bible says, 'And God saw everything he had made, and behold, it was very good.' Gen. 1:31 So I would agree. What I don't see is why you think Eve was corrupted by believing God was a liar. Like I said, to accept the lie that God is a liar, she would have to know what lying is. She didn't.

 

[childeye]

If you don't know the difference, then what is there to ponder? Evil is good. Good is evil. Knowing good and evil, Eve would have something to ponder. Is the Serpent good or evil? But not knowing good and evil, what is there to ponder? Everything is good. God tells her she will die, so she is filled with fear. The Serpent removes the fear, and he opens the door to desire. Eve sees everything is good and she eats. 'the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; Genesis 3:6

I still don't know what you mean by moral character. I take it you mean good, as in Adam and Eve were created good. The Bible says, 'And God saw everything he had made, and behold, it was very good.' Gen. 1:31 So I would agree. What I don't see is why you think Eve was corrupted by believing God was a liar. Like I said, to accept the lie that God is a liar, she would have to know what lying is. She didn't.

You are correct. I think Adam and Eve were made Good, as in a good moral Character. I gave an example of my grandchildren wanting the toy the other one has although it doesn't matter what toy it is. This was meant as an example of what I see as the corruption in mankind and is pertaining to what I mean when I am talking about moral character. For this is the character of my grandchildren in how they desire something someone else has even though it doesn't matter what the other person has. It is a form of jealousy that is manifested out of imagining they are missing out on something, when in reality they aren't missing out on anything. Hence they are impossible to please. From there I believe we can see some aspect of what is the good that was corrupted. It is kind of like Eve and her desire for something, that before Satan spoke, she had no desire for.

I am trying to establish first and foremost that Satan manipulated Eve so that I don't have to argue any points that Eve would have eaten it all by herself without Satan. Why is that important? So that we can discuss what Paul means by this, 2 Corinthians 11:3. Yet you seem to still be saying that the lie didn't matter, since she doesn't know what a lie is. Which is like saying Satan had no impact, which makes 2 Corinthians 11:3 pointless. My grandchildren display this jealousy, yet they don't even know what jealousy is. Somewhere in their mind they're being told that they are missing out, and they're believing it.

 

[MarkT]

You are correct. I think Adam and Eve were made Good, as in a good moral Character. I gave an example of my grandchildren wanting the toy the other one has although it doesn't matter what toy it is. This was meant as an example of what I see as the corruption in mankind and is pertaining to what I mean when I am talking about moral character. For this is the character of my grandchildren in how they desire something someone else has even though it doesn't matter what the other person has. It is a form of jealousy that is manifested out of imagining they are missing out on something, when in reality they aren't missing out on anything. Hence they are impossible to please. From there I believe we can see some aspect of what is the good that was corrupted. It is kind of like Eve and her desire for something, that before Satan spoke, she had no desire for.

I am trying to establish first and foremost that Satan manipulated Eve so that I don't have to argue any points that Eve would have eaten it all by herself without Satan. Why is that important? So that we can discuss what Paul means by this, 2 Corinthians 11:3. Yet you seem to still be saying that the lie didn't matter, since she doesn't know what a lie is. Which is like saying Satan had no impact, which makes 2 Corinthians 11:3 pointless. My grandchildren display this jealousy, yet they don't even know what jealousy is. Somewhere in their mind they're being told that they are missing out, and they're believing it.

I don't think she had an opinion about God being good, because she didn't know good before she ate. So how does she formulate an opinion? She doesn't. All she does is she accepts what she is being told. So what was the impact of the lie? It caused her to eat. That's all.

The Bible doesn't tell us man was created without desire. The desire of the flesh for food, shelter and clothing, leads to the desire for money, which leads to greed and coveting. The desire for pleasure leads to adultery, which leads to violence. In the garden there was nothing to covet because everything was available to man and everything was there in abundance. Adam and Eve didn't want for food. They didn't need clothing or shelter. It was only after they were cast out of the garden that they began to experience hunger and pain. So it has everything to do with being cast out of the garden. Once they were cast out, they were subject to the desire of the flesh and sin and corruption.

 

[MarkT]

I guess I would have to go back and say man was not created good in the sense of a moral being who could only do good. God alone is good. The Bible tells us God saw what he had made and it was very good. Gen. 1:31 That is referring to his work, what he had made, the whole system, the whole creation, before man trespassed against God.

 

[childeye]

I don't think she had an opinion about God being good, because she didn't know good before she ate. So how does she formulate an opinion? She doesn't. All she does is she accepts what she is being told. So what was the impact of the lie? It caused her to eat. That's all.

I am inclined to agree with this as you have worded it. That doesn't change my mind about a false image of god being presented here. The subconscious mind receives things that the conscious mind is not even aware of. There is ample evidence of this. She didn't have to form an opinion about God to have accepted one. She also would be completely unaware of the image she is made with.

The Bible doesn't tell us man was created without desire. The desire of the flesh for food, shelter and clothing, leads to the desire for money, which leads to greed and coveting. The desire for pleasure leads to adultery, which leads to violence. In the garden there was nothing to covet because everything was available to man and everything was there in abundance. Adam and Eve didn't want for food. They didn't need clothing or shelter. It was only after they were cast out of the garden that they began to experience hunger and pain. So it has everything to do with being cast out of the garden. Once they were cast out, they were subject to the desire of the flesh and sin and corruption.

I think you are right about this too, although in this scenario with one woman, adultery wouldn't be an issue. The only other thing, is she desired to eat after Satan spoke to her. This desire happens in the garden. It definitely comes from believing the lie. If she believed that the fruit was desirable, she then also accepted the slander about God sown in with the cause of the desire.

 

[childeye]

I guess I would have to go back and say man was not created good in the sense of a moral being who could only do good. God alone is good. The Bible tells us God saw what he had made and it was very good. Gen. 1:31 That is referring to his work, what he had made, the whole system, the whole creation, before man trespassed against God.

Okay, I don't think you're wrong. But I do think the connotation of the word good has changed. For example, even Jesus said that he was not good, that only God is good. But still he knows that God is what makes him good. If his image of God changed so that God was not good then would he also not change? Of course Jesus as the son of God is made in God's image, but Jesus is no pushover for the devil, like Eve was. He will not be fooled into changing his precious Image of God, by accepting any false image sent proposed by Satan.

 

[MarkT]

I am inclined to agree with this as you have worded it. That doesn't change my mind about a false image of god being presented here. The subconscious mind receives things that the conscious mind is not even aware of. There is ample evidence of this. She didn't have to form an opinion about God to have accepted one. She also would be completely unaware of the image she is made with.

I think you are right about this too, although in this scenario with one woman, adultery wouldn't be an issue. The only other thing, is she desired to eat after Satan spoke to her. This desire happens in the garden. It definitely comes from believing the lie. If she believed that the fruit was desirable, she then also accepted the slander about God sown in with the cause of the desire.

I think the Bible is telling us man was created with a basic desire to know. After all, why do we read the Bible? To gain knowledge. It's like the desire for food; it's a basic need, as the proverb says, knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Pr. 2:10 So Knowledge is meant for the soul as food is meant for the body. So Eve's desire to know was perfectly natural. It didn't come from believing the lie. It didn't come from her subconscious mind. It didn't come from a false image of God. Having a soul means having the desire to know.

 

[childeye]

I think the Bible is telling us man was created with a basic desire to know. After all, why do we read the Bible? To gain knowledge. It's like the desire for food; it's a basic need, as the proverb says, knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Pr. 2:10 So Knowledge is meant for the soul as food is meant for the body. So Eve's desire to know was perfectly natural. It didn't come from believing the lie. It didn't come from her subconscious mind. It didn't come from a false image of God. Having a soul means having the desire to know.

Thanks a lot Mark. Now I have to go back and start at square one arguing that Eve wouldn't have eaten without Satan's lie. Also that the knowledge of good and evil is in reality simply introducing evil. We already knew good in the garden we just didn't realize it without anything in see in contrast to it.

Yes knowledge is desirable and so is wisdom. But there are pros and cons. Knowledge can puff up which was Satan's demise. Someone always knows more than you which can then become a lust for knowledge. Knowledge is power. You can have advantage over others less knowledgeable than yourself. And so it is that God chooses the foolish over the wise of this world..21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.