The Sufferings Of Christ

[for_his_glory]

Does He have that mercy on every single human being?

Yes,

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God would that all would return back to Him, but His longsuffering will come to an end on the last day when Christ returns and the door of God's salvation will be closed forever.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes,

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God would that all would return back to Him, but His longsuffering will come to an end on the last day when Christ returns and the door of God's salvation will be closed forever.

So then He promises punishment for those who refuse, right?

I think we agree more than disagree.

 

[for_his_glory]

So then He promises punishment for those who refuse, right?

I think we agree more than disagree.

Yes, God brings punishment on those who do not walk in obedience to His commands. We agree on somethings and disagree on others as it's all in how we understand. Hopefully in disagreements we can bring a light unto another that has never seen something in scripture before.

Joshua 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

In Sodom and G he burned them. When the men brought up the tower that fell on some, Jesus told them that unless they repent they will all likewise perish. Why didn't anyone in the Bible tell them not to worry as God as mercy on them and no judgment will occur. Why did Paul say he would face the judgement of the deeds done in the body if there is none and only mercy extended to all no matter what?

I never implied judgment never falls on people.

None of that is the point I asked. If people who sin against you do not see their wrong, they will never know mercy has been extended. And this is the case of most people, they do not see the wrong they do others, only the wrong they have received, which they see very clearly. Your answer of "it should" when I asked if you find it then very easy to instantly forgive others is either this is the case of your character or you struggle as most of us do when someone does you wrong. I am asking you to evaluate your own ability to instantly forgive. I am not asking if others feel it or it this is the logical conclusion. It is the logical conclusion IF this is how your really lie.

So I ask again, when others offend you, are you able to instantly forgive no matter what they do including continuing the offensive behavior or words? If you really believed what you wrote, then this ought to be something people say of you. It could have been said of Jesus by those who walked with him. Or do you get angry and repeat offenses to third parties ("you know what XYZ did to me..)?

I'm not saying it isn't a struggle. i'm in a war. I plead to Jesus for victory and I will be victorious. It's much easier to forgive offenses as I walk along with him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You are in error on a point. God did destroy those who abused him and He promised he would do so and did so in 70AD. He judged them for what they did to Him. Those who pierced him were punished, they did not live out their lives in peace and comfort.

Yes Dorothy Mae, judgment fell on people decades later. That's an example of longsuffering,

The one who stiffens his neck after numerous rebukes will suddenly be destroyed without remedy. Pro.29:1

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

REPENT - change, transform, transfigure, reconsider

Repentance gives us that opportunity to receive a new beginning in our life as God wipes away all our past sins and remembers them no more. Repentance allows the door to be opened for Christ to come into our lives so we may receive his Holy Spirit to help guide us in our walk with the Lord and to show us a life that is pleasing to the Father. It’s through the Holy Spirit that we come into a better understanding of Gods word by allowing His Spirit to teach us all things we need to know for the purpose and time of ministry to ourselves and to others.

I agree.

GRACE - undeserved, unmerited favor, Gods willingness to give us His power and ability even though we do not deserve it

Jesus came to show us how to overcome the sin nature of the world by teaching us how to live a moral life compatible with the word of God. Jesus gave of himself for all of us and redeemed us from the curse of sin by taking all our sin upon him becoming the final blood sacrifice for his love towards everyone who will believe on his name. When we come to Jesus it is Gods grace that forgives our sins and remembers them no more. Sin will always be present with us because the flesh will always sin for that is its nature, but when we ask Jesus into our hearts we also receive at that same moment the gift of the Holy Spirit which teaches us how to separate ourselves from the ungodliness and lusts of this world. We may have to live in this world, but as a child of God we are not part of this world because our inner man, or heart, has now become renewed in the Spirit of God and is sinless through the grace of God.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Our King took mankinds sin upon himself by being mistreated, ultimately in gruesome ways.

Mercy - Moves with compassion, Gods unconditional love towards us

Mercy and grace go hand in hand as it is all Gods willingness to love us unconditionally. God loves all his creation as we are all created in his image of love, but have chosen to reject that love through freewill. There are many horrendous things people have done in their lives that society has deemed these type of people unlovable and sinners unworthy of Gods mercy. Thieves, murderers, adulterers, prostitutes, etc. etc. are all loved by God and made in his image of love, but have fallen from grace through their own freewill as we all have many times in our lives as we know Gods word has said we have all sinned and fell short of his glory. Remember there is no such thing as a little sin as sin is sin. Even these type of people that society has already condemned can return to Gods grace as mercy already loves them and God will forgive anything we have done in life, thus God saying he is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

Matthew 5:7 blessed is the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I agree.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If we do not learn from our mistakes then we will continue in them.

Yes and it's a big mistake to think our Father ever saw his Son as accursed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes Dorothy Mae, judgment fell on people decades later. That's an example of longsuffering,

The one who stiffens his neck after numerous rebukes will suddenly be destroyed without remedy. Pro.29:1

Well, most people, stubborn or evil, aren’t suddenly destroyed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never implied judgment never falls on people.

Well the Jews in AD 70 or Sodom were exceptional.

I'm not saying it isn't a struggle. i'm in a war. I plead to Jesus for victory and I will be victorious. It's much easier to forgive offenses as I walk along with him.

Ok, so your philosophy isn’t having the impact upon your actual decisions. You say we deserve mercy but in real life, your response to those who would need your mercy isn’t that they deserve it. Giving people what we think they deserve is relatively easy. I was just wondering.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Well, most people, stubborn or evil, aren’t suddenly destroyed.

They are after being often reproved.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They are after being often reproved.

Can you give some modern examples in real life of this please?

I ask this because it is very rare for God to judge people and I can’t think of any whose end comes close to the judgement on the Jews who killed Jesus.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Well the Jews in AD 70 or Sodom were exceptional.

No they weren't, because the end of the unrepentant is death, whether by sword or worm. What we need to do is trust what God says. It's this world that doesn't recognize the difference between dying in Christ, or apart from him.

Ok, so your philosophy isn’t having the impact upon your actual decisions.

It's not my philosophy. It's what the Bible plainly says and I live by it.

You say we deserve mercy but in real life, your response to those who would need your mercy isn’t that they deserve it.

You must not be a parent. If you have had children and are a good parent, You believe that your children deserve mercy.... Yes?

Giving people what we think they deserve is relatively easy. I was just wondering.

Well, it's easy to give people we love, mercy. Not so easy toward people we despise. So, think with the mind of our sweet Savior, which is here,

love ye yourenemies, and do good, and lend,hoping for nothing again; and yourreward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: forhe is kind unto the unthankful andto the evil. Lk.6:35

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Can you give some modern examples in real life of this please?

I ask this because it is very rare for God to judge people and I can’t think of any whose end comes close to the judgement on the Jews who killed Jesus.

No, I can't give you modern examples in "real life", because I'm not the Judge of mankind. I simply believe the word of God. The method of death isn't important. Whether someone dies in, or apart from God is important and only God will determine that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No they weren't, because the end of the unrepentant is death, whether by sword or worm. What we need to do is trust what God says. It's this world that doesn't recognize the difference between dying in Christ, or apart from him.

So you see no difference between the deaths experienced by those in Sodom and the rich evil man who dies in ease and comfort?

It's not my philosophy. It's what the Bible plainly says and I live by it.

But it doesn’t. No where does the Bible say the evil DESERVE mercy. It says the opposite.

You must not be a parent. If you have had children and are a good parent, You believe that your children deserve mercy.... Yes?

I am a parent and the guilty don’t deserve mercy. I grant mercy when called for. If the one in authority grants mercy to all perpetrators then evil will abound and justice is gone.

Well, it's easy to give people we love, mercy. Not so easy toward people we despise. So, think with the mind of our sweet Savior, which is here,

love ye yourenemies, and do good, and lend,hoping for nothing again; and yourreward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: forhe is kind unto the unthankful andto the evil. Lk.6:35

If a judge grants automatic mercy to his own offspring no matter what crime and refuses mercy to those persons he despises despite their repentance, it’s not at all good. We call that terrible injustice.

That sweet Savior is going to send some to hell without mercy because it’s just.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, I can't give you modern examples in "real life", because I'm not the Judge of mankind. I simply believe the word of God. The method of death isn't important. Whether someone dies in, or apart from God is important and only God will determine that.

Most people think a horrible death as opposed to painless one a big difference. Seems to matter to a lot of people.

 

[stovebolts]

Dorothy Mae
What I hear you talking about is Gods righteousness.
The way I understand it is like this. There is a clear line of what is Gods way and our way. Stealing is not Gods way. Murder is not Gods way.
The next question is, how does God deal with thief’s and murderers? Does Gods righteousness demand punishment and condemnation? How does Gods righteousness respond to such sin?

Deuteronomy 24:13-15 is a picture of how God deals with sin. We see that the sin is held accountable but we also see an element of mercy. As a result, we see that Gods way of dealing with sin is bound in mercy while holding one’s sin accountable. Some misunderstand grace to say, “it’s ok to sin”, but grace actually says, “what you did was wrong, but together we’ll get you on the right path”.

We need to understand that the mercy extended is to draw the offender toward repentance. This is Gods righteousness in action because it is Gods desire that all be saved.

Yet not all are saved. They reject Gods righteousness and harden their hearts to the mercy they’ve been extended.

If we look at Pharaoh in Exodus, we see that he hardened his own heart numerous times. When our hearts become callous and unmoved by Gods mercy and we continue to inflict pain and suffering on the innocent, God can, and often will harden our hearts and judgement follows. Some will experience judgement in this lifetime, and others in the life to come. Some may miss Gods mercy in his judgment, but what we need to consider is that God is pouring out his mercy upon those being oppressed or abused by the hardness of heart by the offender. God always hears the cries of the oppressed and abused and justice is served, either in this life, or the life to come.

Gods righteousness always offers mercy. When that mercy is continually rejected, abused and disregarded, judgment occurs. All of this is within Gods rightousness.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae
What I hear you talking about is Gods righteousness.
The way I understand it is like this. There is a clear line of what is Gods way and our way. Stealing is not Gods way. Murder is not Gods way.
The next question is, how does God deal with thief’s and murderers? Does Gods righteousness demand punishment and condemnation? How does Gods righteousness respond to such sin?

Deuteronomy 24:13-15 is a picture of how God deals with sin. We see that the sin is held accountable but we also see an element of mercy. As a result, we see that Gods way of dealing with sin is bound in mercy while holding one’s sin accountable. Some misunderstand grace to say, “it’s ok to sin”, but grace actually says, “what you did was wrong, but together we’ll get you on the right path”.

We need to understand that the mercy extended is to draw the offender toward repentance. This is Gods righteousness in action because it is Gods desire that all be saved.

Yet not all are saved. They reject Gods righteousness and harden their hearts to the mercy they’ve been extended.

If we look at Pharaoh in Exodus, we see that he hardened his own heart numerous times. When our hearts become callous and unmoved by Gods mercy and we continue to inflict pain and suffering on the innocent, God can, and often will harden our hearts and judgement follows. Some will experience judgement in this lifetime, and others in the life to come. Some may miss Gods mercy in his judgment, but what we need to consider is that God is pouring out his mercy upon those being oppressed or abused by the hardness of heart by the offender. God always hears the cries of the oppressed and abused and justice is served, either in this life, or the life to come.

Gods righteousness always offers mercy. When that mercy is continually rejected, abused and disregarded, judgment occurs. All of this is within Gods rightousness.

Stovebolts, I thought about your post a bit. First I have no problem with God being just to those who damage others. I do not think His righteousness as demanding He be merciful although perhaps you weren’t saying this. Mercy is granted from love, not from a sense of righteousness to me. If mercy is required, it’s no longer mercy granted but an obligation.

I am a scientist and therefore test theories. So let’s look at how God speaks to premeditated and blatant theft or murder. Did he really say, “together we can get you on the right path” or similar?

When Cain finally gave in and murdered his brother God didn’t seem to say that at all but banished him saying that the blood of the victim was loudly crying to Him.

This is an important element often missing from christian discussions of sin, the suffering of the victim. We see the sufferings of the perpetrator. He sees the suffering of the victim too and doesn’t demonstrate much sympathy for the perpetrator from a look at the scripture.

When David arranged to have Uriah murdered, God also didn’t comfort him with, “you’ll do better.” He and his descendants were punished.

When Ananias and Saphriah lied to Peter essentially stealing from their offering, there also wasn’t much sympathy from God.

To be sure we are talking murder and theft which are the two you brought up. We are not talking a minor lapse in kindness.

So it seems to me that scripture reports God being strict regarding sin but allowing for repentance as the goal. And yes He is moving on hearts to get them to see what their sin has done so that they might repent and cease doing it.
is changed hearts.

 

[stovebolts]

I do not think His righteousness as demanding He be merciful although perhaps you weren’t saying this. Mercy is granted from love, not from a sense of righteousness to me. If mercy is required, it’s no longer mercy granted but an obligation.

I do not think Gods righteousness demands mercy. What I see in Gods righteousness is the element of mercy contained within it.
I agree that mercy is granted from love, for God is love and his desire is clear.
Gods righteousness also contains an element of justice, for He is just.

Mercy is a requirement of Gods righteousness as much as Justice is a requirement of Gods rightousness. It’s not an either or discussion.

It’s also good to understand that the Bible describes two types of sinful behavior.
The first, and most common sin is sin done in ignorance of Gods way. Gods righteousness toward us is displayed with mercy. Do not confuse this with escaping natural consequences.
The second type of sin is willful sin. It is when we know better, but disregard Gods way. Gods mercy is still on display that we would recognize our sin.
When we harden our hearts, that sin leads to death, as James would say. It’s never a good idea to harden our hearts toward God.
If our sin causes others to cry out against our atrocities and we fail to turn to Gods ways as we harden our heart toward God, then God may harden our heart and justice will be served.

am a scientist and therefore test theories. So let’s look at how God speaks to premeditated and blatant theft or murder. Did he really say, “together we can get you on the right path” or similar?

As a scientist, you should understand cause and effect. As I attempted to explain above, there are two major types of sin that God responds to differently. God desires we approach his throne of grace that he can lavishly pour grace upon us. However, when we harden our hearts, his justice is displayed within his righteousness. For premeditated murder, justice is always served.

.

To be sure we are talking murder and theft which are the two you brought up. We are not talking a minor lapse in kindness.

Theft may require discernment within the biblical narrative. There were those who stole to eat because some farmers did not leave the corners of their fields for them. This may be one reason why Paul’s says if one is a thief, he is to stop stealing, get a job and then give to those in need.

So it seems to me that scripture reports God being strict regarding sin but allowing for repentance as the goal.

God is predictable. He always starts with mercy and if unrepentant, he employs justice.

I’ve heard it said that truth without love is just somebody being mean. On the other hand, love without truth is simply meaningless.

Mercy is bound in love.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Most people think a horrible death as opposed to painless one a big difference. Seems to matter to a lot of people.

You're right. The religious leaders and others thought Jesus must have committed some sin, or broke some law, cause they thought he was being punished by God. The complete opposite of where scripture should have led them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, most people, stubborn or evil, aren’t suddenly destroyed.

In a sense they are suddenly destroyed as they have damned themselves to the lake of fire in God's judgement against them when Christ returns and the books (not literal books) are opened and judgement is final.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.