The Sufferings Of Christ

[for_his_glory]

Well I’d ask a Muslim if all
that happens is Allahs will. Does this include what you do would be the second question.

You are stereotyping as not all Muslims are Jihad and would rather live in peace with everyone like many religions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well I’d ask a Muslim if all
that happens is Allahs will. Does this include what you do would be the second question.

I will use Esau for an example as God did not hate Esau, but sore displeased with him in his deception of selling his birthright, Genesis 25. God said He also created evil and this is what fell upon Esau as we read in Malachi 1:2-5.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God as Pharaoh hardened his heart against God like so many even today harden their hearts against God.

 

[stovebolts]

Anecdotal stories of your struggles raise pity and feelings in readers, but we could also ask those who sell food how others stealing their products affects them and if we should simply have mercy on those who are hungry and therefore steal their goods.

I was using my story to relate to the very real reality that not only occurred in ancient Israel, but also in present time.
Do you not know the commands to feed the hungry? Jesus tells a parable of a man who had an abundant crop, and instead of blessing others, he built bigger barns. That story didn’t end well for that man either.

True although P is the only one the Bible describes as God hardening a heart (as well as P hardening his own.) Doesn’t seem to be a repeatable pattern.

Romans 9 is a good reference. Hebrews 3 also touches on this.

Where is that scripture? Miriam being chastised.

Exodus 15. It is also where Israel gets the 70 members of the Sanhedrin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Such caricatures of Islam are common among (mainly western) Christians.

Dorothy Mae If you actually read the Qur'an you'd see that in 59:23, peace is one of God's names. 39:10 sets "patience" above all other Islamic virtues. The word is sabr, which expresses something like non-violence.

More complex than that. Your own holy book says, "For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil." Violence can be a part of God's will.

None of this addresses my questions

 

[T. E. Smith]

None of this addresses my questions

That's right. At this moment, I'm addressing your caricature of Islam. Because I consider that more important.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

It's important to also understand that when
affliction, calamity, distress and misery fall on a believer, the purpose is to teach us about how our Lord suffered for only doing good.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I was using my story to relate to the very real reality that not only occurred in ancient Israel, but also in present time.
Do you not know the commands to feed the hungry? Jesus tells a parable of a man who had an abundant crop, and instead of blessing others, he built bigger barns. That story didn’t end well for that man either.

No allowance for people to steal the goods of others because those others don’t give away goods is given. As said, there are those who had so much stolen, they lost their ability to feed their families.

Romans 9 is a good reference. Hebrews 3 also touches on this.


Exodus 15. It is also where Israel gets the 70 members of the Sanhedrin.

Read Exodus 15. No mention of Miriam being chastised. Not at all. Thought so. I know the Bible pretty well and knew it’s not there. She was chastised for criticizing Moses, not for celebrating Pharaoh’s death.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's right. At this moment, I'm addressing your caricature of I consider that more important.

If you cannot address the point, it wasn’t a caricature.

 

[T. E. Smith]

No allowance for people to steal the goods of others because those others don’t give away goods is given. As said, there are those who had so much stolen, they lost their ability to feed their families.

Prov. 6:30-31: "People do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his appetite when he is hungry, but if he is caught, he will pay sevenfold; he will give all the goods of his house." A reflection on the injustice of the legal system.

 

[T. E. Smith]

If cannot address the point, it wasn’t a caricature.

What is your point? That Muslims think they can do as much violence as they want in God's name? Because that's false, and I addressed it.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's important to also understand that when
affliction, calamity, distress and misery fall on a believer, the purpose is to teach us about how our Lord suffered for only doing good.

affliction, calamity, distress and misery only falls on those who willfully sin as they put Christ and His crucifixion to shame. Those who are Christ own do not willfully sin for they have received the knowledge of truth. That does not mean we are perfect, but yet live in this fleshly body that will fall short at times, but given grace, even though we do not deserve it in order to humble ourselves before the Father admitting we did wrong as God forgives us, Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[T. E. Smith]

affliction, calamity, distress and misery only falls on those who willfully sin

I am hoping for clarification. Do you mean only that ultimate, eternal affliction, calamity etc. falls on people who willingly sin? Because otherwise,

The righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. (Ecclesiastes 9:1-3)

 

[for_his_glory]

I am hoping for clarification. Do you mean only that ultimate, eternal affliction, calamity etc. falls on people who willingly sin? Because otherwise,

Yes, as willful means intentional, deliberate and at times thought out plans. It's a stubborn harden heart and determined intention to do as one's own will instead of God's will regardless of the consequences or effects of their actions.

Ecc 9:1-3 is speaking about death that comes to everyone. Be it Spiritual death or literal death as we are either God's own by faith, or we are none of His own by rejecting Him.

God is Spirit and we worship Him in Spirit and truth. When we break that fellowship as Adam did then it becomes a type of death in that we no longer have that Spiritual relationship with God which leaves us spiritually dead inside.

The Biblical definition of spiritual death is the absence of having spiritual life, which is only available in the Lord Jesus Christ. When Adam broke that fellowship he had with God by being disobedient he broke that Spiritual relationship with God and became Spiritually dead within his inner man.

 

[stovebolts]

No allowance for people to steal the goods of others because those others don’t give away goods is given. As said, there are those who had so much stolen, they lost their ability to feed their families.

Oh my gosh, are you so fixated on one side that you can’t see the other? Of course there are bad people who steal for the thrill of it, and by doing so cause deep harm to those they steal from. I’m not talking about that. But if your looking for affirmation, then you have it. However, this is not a binary issue.

Can you show me in Gods law where those with means are to assist those with little to no means?

Furthermore, if you were hungry and could not get any food, at what point would you steal to eat?

Read Exodus 15. No mention of Miriam being chastised. Not at all. Thought so. I know the Bible pretty well and knew it’s not there. She was chastised for criticizing Moses, not for celebrating Pharaoh’s death.

Let me rephrase that. Mariam led the Israelites in praise because God destroyed the wicked. Where to they go next?

To understand this, you need to understand that Greeks go after knowledge and Jews go after signs and wonders.

That being said, of course there is no text stating Mariam nor the Israelites were chastised, but what do the signs and wonders say? Why did they encounter bitter water? And why is scripture specific to the number of palm trees, and what do palm trees represent as a sign? What do the bitter waters teach as a sign?

I don’t expect you to fully grasp this. I’ve been studying Jewish thought for a few years now and some of it still escapes me. However, I do understand this section.

Ezekiel was a Priest from the line of Arron who served in the Temple. In chapter 18 he speaks on generational sin within the context of genealogy ( which is a reference to Israel). Within this chapter God makes it clear that he does not rejoice in the death of the wicked. Again, in chapter 33 God echos this sentiment. Do you believe God just suddenly changes, or reveals this piece of his character of himself, or can we see this through earlier signs and wonders?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

affliction, calamity, distress and misery only falls on those who willfully sin as they put Christ and His crucifixion to shame.

My point was how our Savior faced all those things and so do his followers because he lives in them.
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief...and he shall divide the spoil with the strong Isa.53:3,12

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What does being a trained scientist have to do with what is already written in the scriptures.

A lot of times people take what the scripture plainly says and add to it. They say it’s in the scripture but it isn’t. If they would like like a scientist and test their addition, they could arrive at an understanding of the truth. But often they just blindly accept their addition. I test those additions.

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. This is not a theory or my own thinking, but what has already been written in the word of God in John 5:28-29. If one rejects God and His Son Christ Jesus they have literally damned themselves as their end is destruction in the lake of fire as they continue to willfully sin, Rev 20:11-15. There is no ease and success of the wicked when final judgement comes upon them as their end is destruction.

Until then the Bible itself describes the ease and success of the wicked in some cases. The says this so it must be so, right?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Correct. There’s no argument there. But many are not yet dead. Until that point many options are open.

 

[eddif]

Psalms 37:35 kjv
35. I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he wasnot: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

The wicked are not directed by God.

King David had times of sin, but he would repent seeking Gods heart.

He was just about jealous of the wicked
Psalms 73

But David was directed by rod and staff. His child died. People died because of his sins.

David was directed so he might live in the house of God forever.

The ungodly would just suddenly die without direction to eternal life.

Having to face our sins in this life seems hard, but better to be returned to the right way.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh my gosh, are you so fixated on one side that you can’t see the other? Of course there are bad people who steal for the thrill of it, and by doing so cause deep harm to those they steal from. I’m not talking about that. But if your looking for affirmation, then you have it. However, this is not a binary issue.

I observe you see only one side, yours. You’ve not really acknowledged the living you stole from others. I think of them. God thinks of them.

Can you show me in Gods law where those with means are to assist those with little to no means?

That was your point, not mine. You tried to justify stealing by bringing in the OT law to leave some of the harvest as though not doing so then justifies stealing, not me.

Furthermore, if you were hungry and could not get any food, at what point would you steal to eat?

David wrote, “I’ve not seen the righteous forsaken” so I don’t expect that.

Let me rephrase that. Mariam led the Israelites in praise because God destroyed the wicked. Where to they go next?

She was not reprimanded for it as you claimed she was. Stand corrected and move on. You were in error. The test of humility is acknowledging when you were in error. I recommend it because God gives grace to those who humble themselves.

To understand this, you need to understand that Greeks go after knowledge and Jews go after signs and wonders.

That being said, of course there is no text stating Mariam nor the Israelites were chastised, but what do the signs and wonders say?

Nothing to do with being chastened.

Why did they encounter bitter water? And why is scripture specific to the number of palm trees, and what do palm trees represent as a sign? What do the bitter waters teach as a sign?

No idea.

I don’t expect you to fully grasp this. I’ve been studying Jewish thought for a few years now and some of it still escapes me. However, I do understand this section.

Can you explain it? Keep in mind the Jewish thinkers failed to see and understand the Messiah.

Ezekiel was a Priest from the line of Arron who served in the Temple. In chapter 18 he speaks on generational sin within the context of genealogy ( which is a reference to Israel). Within this chapter God makes it clear that he does not rejoice in the death of the wicked. Again, in chapter 33 God echos this sentiment. Do you believe God just suddenly changes, or reveals this piece of his character of himself, or can we see this through earlier signs and wonders?

I agree with you totally.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's why Calvinists fetishize the story of Pharaoh. Because it's all they got.

You got that right!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are stereotyping as not all Muslims are Jihad and would rather live in peace with everyone like many religions.

No, I’m looking at Mohammed. The best muslim citizens in western nations are the least like Mohammed and the best Christian citizens are the most like Jesus.